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Disproving the Bible

Unification

Well-Known Member
Salam Alikom friend..you have been through many studies as I can see.. you are very vey intelectual, learned and educated.. being skeptic is a good thing BUT to an extent.. if it goes beyond it can result in the opposite of what it was designed for.. I am not as learned as you are regarding religions or whatever you want to call them but I found all I needed in Islam. I am not calling you to Islam this is just a mature conversation where I can learn from you and share an experience with you. For me Judiasm, Christianity and Islam are from God and I believe so although the 1st 2 have been abreviated and changed while the 3rd did not. I believe also that they are some how confirming each other. For me also studing about Prophet Muhammad made all the sense because he was illeterate in an area of illeterate people and there was no source or civilization where he can get all the kind of information about everything as an illeterate or even as a learned man and knowing all he has put in Quran with all the precision and accuracy does not fit an illeterate or a human being at all which was enough evidence for me to really accept Islam the 2nd time by choice and not by birth. He could have also said that Jesus is son of God and this would have helped a lot with Christians. He was also offered all a man could wish for, wealth, women, estates and the leadership of Mekka to stop his call to this religion and his answer was if you put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left to leave this I would die first and not do it. He could have had all he needed but he refused. He also died very poor and had little food at home always and when he died his shield was mortagated at a jewish guys shop. For me with all the legislations and all that I found in Quran this was enough. There is no contradiction in Quran and I challenge any one to get me one vs. the bible for example which is full of those. Also all what he taught people through Quran and through his morals fitted for me the example of a prophet. he gave rights and respect to women when they were down graded to the extent that they were part of the inheritence form a dead father or uncle. They were like inheriting the house. They even have more rights than European women to the contrary to what is thought. Also at that time that society had very perverted sexual habbits that came to stop, he was kind to kids, animal and plants and when sending an army to war he advised them with the most beautiful commands: not to burn at tree or kill old people women or childern, not to destroy a house of worship or attack civilians, not raid houses or terrify people.....etc.. He brought equality and gave the black people the same right in a very racist society and encouraged people to free the slaves, he prevented drinking wine gradually (some people might consider this not acceptable because they like it but it makes more problems left permitted it is prohibited in the old testiment too) he prevented eating pork (because they eat garbage and dead animals) which is also in the old testiment, he gave great advise, he was humble. .actually you have to read about him from a trusted source. You can also see a youtube video of "Garry miller converting to Islam". This was right before he announced he converted. In it he was talking about Muhammad. You can see that he was very shook up because he was a Christian missionarry who went in to read Quran to find falts and start debating Muslims. The result was that he converted.
Now before we go any futher with this, there are several kinds of people in this world.. there are those who worship nothing or a God of some sort and others who unknowingly worship there minds (admiring its intelectual abilities to learn and understand and reason) others worship themselves (too engaged focusing on it) also there are those who worship science and scientist and believe that this is THE reference to all.. this same science we had very little of, few decades and few 100 years ago and still we do not have the full ultimate science or picture but we still worship it anyway (in Quran it is said that we will only be given little knowledge no matter how much it is and even though we think other wise it will still be so).. we still do not know how to stop aging and avoid dying and live forever and cure every desease and create people without disease, we have not reached the end of the galaxy we are in because we do not have the means to do so not to mention the hundreds of millions of galaxies and at the end we still die and go some where. Money is also one of these Gods..where we forget every thing and focus on how to get it, we sleep and wake up thinking about it. Some people sacrifice everything and give away anything for money. .. and there are many other Gods besides the above mentioned.Those Gods are mentioned in Quran and we are requested not to follow or worship them.. worshipping here is not praying to these or so but rather too much admiration that prevents him from seeing God or how life really is for us (a small part of a long journey but life still is the decisive part with very limited pleasure in comparison with the detailed description of heaven which we have). I know that many people have turned to science, facts and logic and forsaken religion and spirituality but let me share something with you. God made us from both and in need of both. Without spirituality you can never find God or peace...in case you are looking for him in the first place.. if you are and have an open heart and mind.. in Islam we have both logic, science concerning our Donia or life and spirituality where you can feel peace and serenity. I was born a Muslim but I did not accept that just that easyily as a rebelious person who needed to make sure that he was on the right track and who had lots of questions and also a particular questin in my mind, if we as Muslims were right how come all Islamic nations are mostly 3rd world countries? (I found the answer later on on my journey). Back then I also believed that peace, serenity and spirituality are bull**** and a big mythical lie that had no way to be reached.. after a very long journey I assure you I discoved I was wrong. Serenity is there and depends on many things in the relation between you and God and depends on a lot of knowledge and not just an illusion. Back then I enjoyed hours of debate and admiration of my intelectuale abilities without regards to whether I was right or wrong.. I only wanted to win a debate to prove that I am superior like many here on these forums and at that time I worshipped myself only binded by this urge which also as I discovered originates from a feeling of being uncomplete and a bit empty. I have no problem now losing any useful debate because I am concerned more about learning and understanding than about my complexes being fed or filled up. I am at peace. Many will never know that. Here I would only like to share the beauty I found in Islam with whomever cares to know without wasting our best resources which is time. Now back to our subject.. if you are sincerely looking for him and did pray to him saying for example.. "please guide me if you are there and if you are the all mighty as they say you are" sincerety and truthfulness is key. If you have this in your heart.. believe me.. he will guide you. He is looking for you as well. Now back to the subject of someone worshipping his mind.. which happens when he is very inteligent and bright especially if you add to this reciepe lots of knowledge and more like if he studies in top universities under very reputed professors.. now the mix is very suitable and dangrous enough.. in Quran God says that if he spreads a lot of his givings (including knowledge, money, physical strength....etc. many of the human would most certainly go about practicing tyriny and this is why he gives little bits at a time ( too much learning and knowledge, as well, for some can spoil their minds because they actually have minds vulnerable to this plague of exessiveness mentioned above and due to this instead of understanding they wrongfully believe that they are unique when actually they have rotten minds that they cannot actually use properly blinded by this too much knowledge). There is a long chapter in Ahadeeth Quodsia (Gods words but not Quran) explaining this in detail..let me also tell you about a mind: it gets sick,if deprived of sleep, sugar, nurishment or water or exposed to super stresses can break down or halucinate and make mistakes. Also minds can get tumours or alzaheimers... etc. therefore you can't count on it alone.. again you need a higher power that does not change or make mistakes to guide you through this life. Notice that you have brilliant proffessors all over the world worshipping any and everything e.g. animals and trees.. even the vagina!! they worship it in india and they have temples for it! Counting on the mind alone is a big mistake that so many do knowadays. Now I leave you with 4 things from Quran again before I find your evidence..
Very clear facts from Quran that Muslim did not comprehend at that time till the last few decades. Here I assure you there is no taking anything out of context or so. These are simple ones that as an Arabic speaking person:
.
Surat Al Hadid: "We sent Iron down" as you might know it was discovered that Iron was not made on earth and that it came with Meteors to earth over a long period.
Female spider builds a web: a fact discovered latter that most of the webs are built by the females. This was though to be a mistake by some non Muslims and they used to attack Muslims on that point telling them why the female was spider was mentioned in this spot and not the male or a general spiders instead. This is very simple and clear.
Because the Quran is very precise there a verse that says that God has not created 2 hearts inside one man and it was strange to many why not say human or mention both man and woman and the answer was that at some point in her life a woman has 2 hearts inside her when she is pregnant.
In the Quran it is mentioned that: We made mountains as wedges. It was discovered in the 20 century that the mountains look like wedges and are actually holding the crust of the earth. Sorry for writting this much but you are touching on very interesting and sensitive subject.
 
Same meanings, different prophet. Destruction and rebuilding of mind. And everything came from the cosmos, including iron. Look into the spiders web in the cosmos as well as the brain.
 

Marllo111

Member
I will look into exactly how it was but never the less still it is a fact that Iron comes down on earth from the space which I believe is on its own an interesting facts to have been there for 1436 years even if Muhammad PBUH was a highly educated man he had no way knowing about this and about the Spider female.. and many other examples.. to the neutral observer you must see there is something here..
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I think it is clear here. The manufacturing of iron requires large stars and "Its abundance in rocky planetslike Earth is due to its abundant production byfusion in high-mass stars". How would it move from the star to form part of a planet? As mentioned the transformation from Nicket to iron is the "last reaction" before a star dies and explodes. It also requires bigger stars than the sun for this.. I believe this is very clear in the Quran and not taken out of any context. Surat Al Hadid:" ina inzalna Al Hadid".

The Quran says nothing about stars producing iron. Post hoc rationalization, nothing more. As Legion pointed out iron existed before the Earth formed. It is a part of the Earth not something place after formation. Beside the Egpytians claimed the same thing thousands of years before Islam as did Babylon and Assyria. Repeating ideas which already exist is not a sign of a prophet, it is a sign of plagiarism. All 3 are wrong since all 3 state the Earth existed before the iron was sent down. However since the Earth has an iron core all 3 statements are factually wrong. Without a core there is no planet.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I will look into exactly how it was but never the less still it is a fact that Iron comes down on earth from the space which I believe is on its own an interesting facts to have been there for 1436 years even if Muhammad PBUH was a highly educated man he had no way knowing about this and about the Spider female.. and many other examples.. to the neutral observer you must see there is something here..

Male spiders build webs as well. So again your interpretation is wrong. This is what happens when you attempt to shoehorn science into a primitive book.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I will look into exactly how it was but never the less still it is a fact that Iron comes down on earth from the space
Only in the sense that the Earth "comes down from space".
even if Muhammad PBUH was a highly educated man he had no way knowing about this and about the Spider female
Let's assume he wasn't and that the Quran was dictated by Jibreel. How does the passage in question indicate even a fact, let alone a scientific revelation?
to the neutral observer you must see there is something here..
I see the same arguments presented for cults from the middle ages that nobody other than medieval scholars and the like even recall existed, that were proffered by various pagan (and protestant) groups from before Plato unto today, and that fail to meet the standard of "convincing" that many a fine-tuned cosmological/physics argument does or even a proof such as Gödel's. I don't see anything that a neutral observer (to the extent these exist) would identify as "something".
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
I will look into exactly how it was but never the less still it is a fact that Iron comes down on earth from the space which I believe is on its own an interesting facts to have been there for 1436 years even if Muhammad PBUH was a highly educated man he had no way knowing about this and about the Spider female.. and many other examples.. to the neutral observer you must see there is something here..

And as the cosmos has a spiders web, so does our brain. As the cosmos has iron, so does our brain.

The male and female, positive and negative principles are different than literal guy and girl.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
I will look into exactly how it was but never the less still it is a fact that Iron comes down on earth from the space which I believe is on its own an interesting facts to have been there for 1436 years even if Muhammad PBUH was a highly educated man he had no way knowing about this and about the Spider female.. and many other examples.. to the neutral observer you must see there is something here..

And primitively in texts, the ancients referred to the brain as "earth." Ever wonder why there is no Hebrew or Greek word for brain?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ever wonder why there is no Hebrew or Greek word for brain?
No. Partly because there is no French, Italian, Basque, Finnish, Estonian, etc., word for "brain" (the only word for "brain" is "brain"), and partly because to the extent that there exist lexemes in one language that can be said to be equivalent to those in another, there exists words for "brain" in Hebrew and Greek.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Only in the sense that the Earth "comes down from space".

Comes down and/or sent down is a reference point if taken literally. Thus this reference point must exist prior to iron being "sent/comes down". Beside I can name about 4 cultures which predate Islam by centuries which knew about iron in meteorites.Repeating knowledge already known is not a miracle nor divine.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Comes down and/or sent down is a reference point if taken literally. Thus this reference point must exist prior to iron being "sent/comes down". Beside I can name about 4 cultures which predate Islam by centuries which knew about iron in meteorites.Repeating knowledge already known is not a miracle nor divine.
I didn't realize I suggested otherwise.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Never implied that, sorry if you took it this way. Just pointing out that in order to send Iron to E, E must already exist. It gets worse if E lacks iron prior to formation.
Ah. My apologies then (for the false inference I made).
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
It's not open to interpretation because it's verified both scriptually and historically, not to mention by a direct and unbroken succession of bishops through hands-on ordination beginning with the apostles and continuing today. There was only one Christian Church for the first 1500 years of Christianity. That one is "his Church."
It is quite a stretch to say that it has been historically verified. That is clearly open to many opinions of many scholars, some of whom would strongly disagree with you here. If there were just 'one' Christian church, we wouldn't have Protestants, Mormons, LDS, and so on. Those branches differ very much from one another and in particular, the RCC. Even the RCC has various branches, such as Greek and so on. But back to the historically verified, there is no proof that Jesus even lived, although it is intimated that someone like him may have lived. The rest is supposition and nothing more.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Dear Friend.. the same applies to you, it is your own believe but the other churches say different thing.. you are divided into protostants, catholics....etc.. but there are more than 1.5 billion muslims now on the same one faith (I am not alone) and unfortunately it is the fastest growing religion nowadays and unfortunately I do understand what mythology is and still you did not answer me.. did you read the Quran or you are quoting somebody else's opinion? I am ready to stay on until one of us proves the other wrong in a friendly and civilized way if you like and I am ready to hear you out on why you believe that Islam is not a religion but rather something else and that Christianity is the one .. only in a friendly way and with an open mind.. you might be able to convert me if you convince me and by that you take an extra tortured soul to heaven and Jesus peace be upon him will bless you.. what say you??
I have read the Qu'ran and find that what Outhouse had to say is entirely accurate. The Muslim faith was built on the back of the Christian faith. Too much mirrors the other. Furthermore, even the Christian faith was built on older faiths, such as the oldest faith, which would be Hinduism, or at least the oldest organized faith. And that was formed by Pagan traditions. Google Catal Huyuk or the cave pictographs in France for more information. Its interesting that you say Muslims are of one stripe but that is not true either since we know there are Sunni's, and strict conservatives and so on. This is not to diminish or insult your faith but rather in the interest of speaking to what you have to say here.
 

Marllo111

Member
I have read the Qu'ran and find that what Outhouse had to say is entirely accurate. The Muslim faith was built on the back of the Christian faith. Too much mirrors the other. Furthermore, even the Christian faith was built on older faiths, such as the oldest faith, which would be Hinduism, or at least the oldest organized faith. And that was formed by Pagan traditions.

This is my first time to meet atheists and agnostics for me. I met Christians and it was like we have many common grounds and some differences. Here with atheists and agnostics which for me is a new experience of totally different beliefs or disbeliefs which I am trying to digest. Atheists and agnostics take science or history as their reference. The believe in science or history is still a kind of faith but is it built on concrete facts or blind faith. Lets check. Concerning Darwin's evolution there is no observable evidence that one kind turned into another. We only have observable evidence that one species turned into another.. that all. Therefore it is a hypothisis and not credible proven facts. Let me forget I am a Muslim and let me say that Darwin could be right or wrong but we will never be sure. For me counting on historians is simillar because when we say there is no evidence some existed.. it means "there is no evidence" and does not mean that it is conclusive evidence. Evidence from 20 years ago or even one year ago could be lost or falsified. Same is for older evidence 3000 or 4000 years ago. It does not mean it never happened. Anyone can choose to believe what he wants at the end. For Islam and Christianity we are accountable at the end (judgement day) for what we do. It is a very cruel feeling to feel that everyone will get away with all that he did in this life without any kind of judgement or so. It is very harsh and un just to know that Hitler will not answer on killing 50 M people. So for me believing evolution and historians is a type of blind faith because human capabilities are still limited e.g. we still can not do time travel.. otherwise it would have solved the problem.
Back to what you said that religion are built on each others' backs. I believe you and him totally and the findings that confirm the similarities. It is totally correct I confess.. but again lets look at it in a scientific way.. This could mean:
1. It is copied with modifications.
2. If you find an old article dated 20 years ago and it has no name (writter is missing) and read it and then you find another on nowadays discussing the same subject in a more or less similar style but with more detail.. this recent article has the name of its writter on it.. we could say that this writter cheated from that old article.. this is one idea.. another idea could be that the 2 writters are the same. For us God sent 1000s of messengers to humanity as per the prophet Mohamed PBUH some of which we know by name and many we do not. What I mean to say is that the sender of all these faiths is one and the same and this is why they look alike. If profit Muhammed was a fraud but as clever and convincing as he was he could have created a totally different senario OR agree with Christian the Jesus is God or the son of God which he did not which calls for a bit of thinking here for us. At the end I agree that the observation are very accurate that these religions are very similar but it could be a different reason. Also Darwin finding great similarities in different kinds which led him to believe they evolved into each other could also mean that because the creator is one so the creation are similar in many ways.

Google Catal Huyuk or the cave pictographs in France for more information.

What is this? Is it a book?

Its interesting that you say Muslims are of one stripe but that is not true either since we know there are Sunni's, and strict conservatives and so on.

We are stripes yes but we have one book up to the letter and dots kept since 1436 years.

This is not to diminish or insult your faith but rather in the interest of speaking to what you have to say here.

Thank you for your decency.. Non taken.. Conversations are one way of exchanging thoughts and ideas to learn.. and is usually useful.. what are you? Atheist.. agnostic or other?
 
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