sassysam29
Member
"Proof of importance" yes?
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Disproving the Bible
- Thread starter Seeker of Ka
- Start date
sassysam29
Member
"Proof of importance " yes?I totally agree. It's just an interesting thought.
Evidence changes my evaluation of any claim, proposition, or assertion.
I'm skeptical of everything, alas, but as much as possible I remain open to anything.
I lack faith. Evidence is all I can use.
I asked for the Arabic, but I am willing to deal with a translation of the passage concerned, so long as you present an argument for why this matters or indicates anything scientific (or is supposed to).
The word "religion" (and related words in French, German, Italian, even non-IE languages that have been sufficiently influenced by Western culture) refers to a fairly modern concept. The ideas that religions concern beliefs, doctrines, or are independent from other sociocultural norms rather than sociocultural practices as they were for thousands of years (and continue to be in some cases) is a modern notion. Hence the lack of a word for religion in ancient languages and the social construction of "religions" (both ancient and modern) out of the modern notion whence there were originally none (for example, the 19th century religionization of Greek and Roman "myths" using Homer, Hesiod, Euripides, even Ovid, or the modern (re-)construction of Hinduism and Buddhism into modern "-isms" through (in the case of Hinduism) several centuries of a diverse number of factors mostly related to colonialization).
For simplicity, I've studied Wicca, Gnosticism (modern and ancient), Greek religions, Roman/Hellenistic religions, Islam, Shamanism (modern and to the extent possible ancient), the origins of religion, Hinduism, Buddhism (in its most popular forms, from the original schisms to Zen Buddhism), Neopaganism, Christianities (from the Jesus movement through the medieval Church and various cults, movements, and heresies), Druidism, Judaism (ancient, 2nd-temple, and Rabbinic Judaisms), Goddess worship, Zoroastrianism, and more (and, of course, what I have included/excluded as well as the categorizations of those included are somewhat arbitrary- that ancient Gnosticism existed has been questioned, Rabbinic Judaism of today isn't that reflected in the Mishnah, and the "-isms" attached to Buddhist and Hindu religious beliefs reflect a unified number of doctrines that isn't reflected in traditional forms of these religions, etc.).
There are reasons. Most simply, I haven't found sufficient evidence to believe in God or any given religion given the evidence against these.
That makes two of us.
Salam Alikom friend..you have been through many studies as I can see.. you are very vey intelectual, learned and educated.. being skeptic is a good thing BUT to an extent.. if it goes beyond it can result in the opposite of what it was designed for.. I am not as learned as you are regarding religions or whatever you want to call them but I found all I needed in Islam. I am not calling you to Islam this is just a mature conversation where I can learn from you and share an experience with you. For me Judiasm, Christianity and Islam are from God and I believe so although the 1st 2 have been abreviated and changed while the 3rd did not. I believe also that they are some how confirming each other. For me also studing about Prophet Muhammad made all the sense because he was illeterate in an area of illeterate people and there was no source or civilization where he can get all the kind of information about everything as an illeterate or even as a learned man and knowing all he has put in Quran with all the precision and accuracy does not fit an illeterate or a human being at all which was enough evidence for me to really accept Islam the 2nd time by choice and not by birth. He could have also said that Jesus is son of God and this would have helped a lot with Christians. He was also offered all a man could wish for, wealth, women, estates and the leadership of Mekka to stop his call to this religion and his answer was if you put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left to leave this I would die first and not do it. He could have had all he needed but he refused. He also died very poor and had little food at home always and when he died his shield was mortagated at a jewish guys shop. For me with all the legislations and all that I found in Quran this was enough. There is no contradiction in Quran and I challenge any one to get me one vs. the bible for example which is full of those. Also all what he taught people through Quran and through his morals fitted for me the example of a prophet. he gave rights and respect to women when they were down graded to the extent that they were part of the inheritence form a dead father or uncle. They were like inheriting the house. They even have more rights than European women to the contrary to what is thought. Also at that time that society had very perverted sexual habbits that came to stop, he was kind to kids, animal and plants and when sending an army to war he advised them with the most beautiful commands: not to burn at tree or kill old people women or childern, not to destroy a house of worship or attack civilians, not raid houses or terrify people.....etc.. He brought equality and gave the black people the same right in a very racist society and encouraged people to free the slaves, he prevented drinking wine gradually (some people might consider this not acceptable because they like it but it makes more problems left permitted it is prohibited in the old testiment too) he prevented eating pork (because they eat garbage and dead animals) which is also in the old testiment, he gave great advise, he was humble. .actually you have to read about him from a trusted source. You can also see a youtube video of "Garry miller converting to Islam". This was right before he announced he converted. In it he was talking about Muhammad. You can see that he was very shook up because he was a Christian missionarry who went in to read Quran to find falts and start debating Muslims. The result was that he converted.
Now before we go any futher with this, there are several kinds of people in this world.. there are those who worship nothing or a God of some sort and others who unknowingly worship there minds (admiring its intelectual abilities to learn and understand and reason) others worship themselves (too engaged focusing on it) also there are those who worship science and scientist and believe that this is THE reference to all.. this same science we had very little of, few decades and few 100 years ago and still we do not have the full ultimate science or picture but we still worship it anyway (in Quran it is said that we will only be given little knowledge no matter how much it is and even though we think other wise it will still be so).. we still do not know how to stop aging and avoid dying and live forever and cure every desease and create people without disease, we have not reached the end of the galaxy we are in because we do not have the means to do so not to mention the hundreds of millions of galaxies and at the end we still die and go some where. Money is also one of these Gods..where we forget every thing and focus on how to get it, we sleep and wake up thinking about it. Some people sacrifice everything and give away anything for money. .. and there are many other Gods besides the above mentioned.Those Gods are mentioned in Quran and we are requested not to follow or worship them.. worshipping here is not praying to these or so but rather too much admiration that prevents him from seeing God or how life really is for us (a small part of a long journey but life still is the decisive part with very limited pleasure in comparison with the detailed description of heaven which we have). I know that many people have turned to science, facts and logic and forsaken religion and spirituality but let me share something with you. God made us from both and in need of both. Without spirituality you can never find God or peace...in case you are looking for him in the first place.. if you are and have an open heart and mind.. in Islam we have both logic, science concerning our Donia or life and spirituality where you can feel peace and serenity. I was born a Muslim but I did not accept that just that easyily as a rebelious person who needed to make sure that he was on the right track and who had lots of questions and also a particular questin in my mind, if we as Muslims were right how come all Islamic nations are mostly 3rd world countries? (I found the answer later on on my journey). Back then I also believed that peace, serenity and spirituality are bull**** and a big mythical lie that had no way to be reached.. after a very long journey I assure you I discoved I was wrong. Serenity is there and depends on many things in the relation between you and God and depends on a lot of knowledge and not just an illusion. Back then I enjoyed hours of debate and admiration of my intelectuale abilities without regards to whether I was right or wrong.. I only wanted to win a debate to prove that I am superior like many here on these forums and at that time I worshipped myself only binded by this urge which also as I discovered originates from a feeling of being uncomplete and a bit empty. I have no problem now losing any useful debate because I am concerned more about learning and understanding than about my complexes being fed or filled up. I am at peace. Many will never know that. Here I would only like to share the beauty I found in Islam with whomever cares to know without wasting our best resources which is time. Now back to our subject.. if you are sincerely looking for him and did pray to him saying for example.. "please guide me if you are there and if you are the all mighty as they say you are" sincerety and truthfulness is key. If you have this in your heart.. believe me.. he will guide you. He is looking for you as well. Now back to the subject of someone worshipping his mind.. which happens when he is very inteligent and bright especially if you add to this reciepe lots of knowledge and more like if he studies in top universities under very reputed professors.. now the mix is very suitable and dangrous enough.. in Quran God says that if he spreads a lot of his givings (including knowledge, money, physical strength....etc. many of the human would most certainly go about practicing tyriny and this is why he gives little bits at a time ( too much learning and knowledge, as well, for some can spoil their minds because they actually have minds vulnerable to this plague of exessiveness mentioned above and due to this instead of understanding they wrongfully believe that they are unique when actually they have rotten minds that they cannot actually use properly blinded by this too much knowledge). There is a long chapter in Ahadeeth Quodsia (Gods words but not Quran) explaining this in detail..let me also tell you about a mind: it gets sick,if deprived of sleep, sugar, nurishment or water or exposed to super stresses can break down or halucinate and make mistakes. Also minds can get tumours or alzaheimers... etc. therefore you can't count on it alone.. again you need a higher power that does not change or make mistakes to guide you through this life. Notice that you have brilliant proffessors all over the world worshipping any and everything e.g. animals and trees.. even the vagina!! they worship it in india and they have temples for it! Counting on the mind alone is a big mistake that so many do knowadays. Now I leave you with 4 things from Quran again before I find your evidence..
Very clear facts from Quran that Muslim did not comprehend at that time till the last few decades. Here I assure you there is no taking anything out of context or so. These are simple ones that as an Arabic speaking person:
.
Surat Al Hadid: "We sent Iron down" as you might know it was discovered that Iron was not made on earth and that it came with Meteors to earth over a long period.
Female spider builds a web: a fact discovered latter that most of the webs are built by the females. This was though to be a mistake by some non Muslims and they used to attack Muslims on that point telling them why the female was spider was mentioned in this spot and not the male or a general spiders instead. This is very simple and clear.
Because the Quran is very precise there a verse that says that God has not created 2 hearts inside one man and it was strange to many why not say human or mention both man and woman and the answer was that at some point in her life a woman has 2 hearts inside her when she is pregnant.
In the Quran it is mentioned that: We made mountains as wedges. It was discovered in the 20 century that the mountains look like wedges and are actually holding the crust of the earth. Sorry for writting this much but you are touching on very interesting and sensitive subject.
outhouse
Atheistically
The 3rd changed the most, all religions have evolved into their current state though.
Which is something that is not substantiated by any credible academia.
They all evolved from Canaanite mythology, and only with credible study can one even begin to understand ho wall religion evolved into their current state
Oral traditions could be passed on as easy as writing. One did no have to be literate to collect others writings and edit them for their own needs.
Some people could also recite the whole bible almost verbatim in oral traditions alone.
So his possible illiteracy means absolutely nothing as far as proof for any divine connection. It factually is not.
outhouse
Atheistically
This is factually not correct in any way shape or form.
You are however doing a great job of proselytizing your faith, and little else.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
God says you cannot come to Him unless He calls you so everyone who does not believe missed the call
outhouse
Atheistically
I'm sorry, but no god has ever said anything as far as we know.
Man has written all of these things and they claimed "a god" said something.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
another missed call
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
maybe those who get the call find value in the knowledge they get. those who miss the call don't know they missed it so they go blissfully on unaware
Shad
Veteran Member
This is so wrong it is funny. Mountains are part of the Earth's crust not separate from it. Mountains do not hold down the Earth's crust since there are numerous areas without mountains but the crust is fine. The mass of all mountains is tiny compared to the whole crust. Areas with mountains are prone to earthquakes far more often than those without thus do not hold down anything. While areas without mountains are not as prone to earthquakes. mountains are formed by movement of the crust. If mountains hold the crust, gravity actually does this, the Himalaya range would prevent the India sub-continent from colliding with the Asia plate. This does not happen. Read a book on plate tectonics as it will completely refute your interpretation
You are just parroting apologist websites, nothing more.
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I'll do my best, sir.
Shad
Veteran Member
There are other issues. Islamic tradition holds that Muhammad was a merchant that traveled as far as Syria. Syria was a major bastion of Christianity in the East thus he could have picked up this information. There were Jewish tribes at and around Medina. There was a Christian tribe in Arabia, I have forgotten the name. There were also a number of Jews and Christians that interacted with Muhammad with some becoming Muslim. There is the former Nabataean Kingdom of Northern Arabia which had a Christian population. There is also the issues of the Quran containing verses about figures like Moses and Abraham. These verses automatically imply that the audiences knows who these people were otherwise references to these people fails on deaf ears. The whole illiterate construct is dogma in order to create a false image of ignorance rather than to represent history, history which Islamic tradition itself supports rather than the dogma spouted here.
While the above is about the Quran we can likewise show how dogma based interpretations can be false. Take the story about Adam and Eve. The interpretation that they were the first humans can be refuted. However if the story is not taken literally then no direct refutation is required as it is not claim of history. The major difference is that the Quran makes claims of authorship that the Bible never makes.
You have to go back to the Hebrew Bible to make sense out of the sacrifice. In those days, the Ancient Israelites had to atone for their sins by offering as a sacrifice an unblemished animal. When you get to the NT, God decides to perform an atoning sacrifice which once and for all would be sufficient to pay the price for sins of the whole world. This is why Yeshua (Jesus) is called the ‘Lamb of God ’. Unfortunately, he had naysayers, people who doubted him and had refused to believe. That's because they didn't really know who he was. If they really knew, they probably would've believed. Jesus said, “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only begotten Son, tha whosoever believeth in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” That's a universal offer, now that it has been finished. Of course, some people know and believe, others know and do not believe. Still some don't know at all.
Well, Seeker of Ka, as I aforementioned, before Jesus had lived, unblemished animal sacrifice was how the Israelites atoned for sins, and God had forgiven them. Now that Jesus had been crucified and was resurrected, God extended the offer of salvation to everyone, Jew and Gentile. Though, in Yeshua's day, as is true today, Jews generally consider faith in Yeshua to be apostasy. Not to say that there aren't Jewish believers in Yeshua....
You might not realise this, Seeker of Ka, but angels in Heaven DO possess the freedom of will. How do you think Lucifer had even rebelled against God? He had made a choice.
Wa-‘alaykum ‘as-salaam
My neurotic tendency to need to know as much as I can about everything is certainly not something I recommend.
Apart from lesser known and perhaps more arguable examples, what about the Sunni/Shia divide?
1) To the extent this describes Muhammad, it also describes Jesus (with some arguable minor differences that, I think, are less important than the problems with the above assertion)
2) If the area consisted of only illiterate people, and granting that Jibreel not only dictated the Quran to Muhammed (PBUH) but was also able to enable an illiterate to write, how was the Quran transmitted and how were ahadith recorded? Modern Standard Arabic, although spoken nowhere as a native language, is basically classical Arabic with additional vocabulary. This is because the classical Arabic of the Quran dominated literary Arabic almost from the earliest Arabic literature (though not quite). Also, the Arabic alphabet is (like Hebrew, Greek, Latin, etc.) a derivative of the Phoenician alphabet (hence the Hebrew and Arabic aleph and the Greek alpha). So the alphabet that the Quran was transmitted by originated long before even Christianity. So too did the writing methods used in literary Arabic (although works such as Fi al-Shi'r al-Jahili have been extensively criticized at least as much as have pre-Islamic literature, the idea that the corpus of pre-Islamic poetry entirely post-dates the Quran is untenable). So there was a literature community that existed before the Quran (albeit a small one) and there had to be one for the Quran as well as other early Islamic literature to survive.
3) The Sira and Sunna, even in Islamic scholarship, have been subject to extensive critique. Applying modern historical methods, there is little reason to think that much of what was deemed authoritative actually is. Put differently, why should I accept as true the sources we have on the Prophet's life?
It seems like a lot of what you say runs into immediate problems if one questions the accuracy of the events and characteristics ascribed to the historical "Muhammed". In other words, I have to accept quite a bit just to evaluate the extent to which the sayings and deeds of the Prophet are evidence for God, Islam, etc.
Thank you.
I am not. I am sincerely looking for truth and answers, but I do not think these are to be found in Islam (or numerous other places, including many fields in the sciences). To make the leap of faith required to pray to Allah is more than I can do honestly.
My field is neuroscience. While that doesn't mean I can tell you exactly how the mind emerges from the brain (or doesn't, for that matter), I know how the brain works, and the physical descriptions you refer to involve the brain. And to the extent you are correct about the nature of the brain's response to stresses, how is it not possible or more probable that religious ecstasy, revelation, or epiphany (in the classical sense; literally) isn't due to hallucinations and other responses to stress?
Arguing that someone who relies on logic, rationality, etc., should not is as effective as arguing that someone who believes logic & rationality are inherently limited are wrong. In both cases, the initial perspective precludes the acceptance of the opposing perspective.
Iron is at the core of this planet. I think you are referring to the fact that meteorites contain iron, not that this is the source of the Earth's iron.
And Arabic nouns have gender. Also, male spiders do build webs, although you are right that "species-typical" webs are constructed by females.
This isn't a statement about a scientific truth hidden in the Quran but an explanation as to why the Quran isn't inaccurate by explaining the blatantly obvious (i.e., that a pregnant woman's body contains 2 hearts). Even if the verse is meant to be interpreted this way, it is an obvious truth known long before the Quran.
Humans have known how mountains look since they first saw mountains. This wasn't a 20th century discovery (and mountains don't hold the crust of the Earth).
outhouse
Atheistically
Those that do not have an education and refuse to get a real education go on blissfully on unaware.
The sad thing is they try spreading their own lack of knowledge because they don't know any better.
Seeker of Ka
Asetian
That story is not actually in the bible, Lucifer (Latin for lightbringer) like most Jewish Demons where named for Babylonian Deities that where adapted into their religion.
Seeker of Ka
Asetian
You have not disproved my point, you are saying that he decided to follow up on an old sacrificial habit. I'm asking what would his motivation be to do so.