Disproving the Bible

[Marllo111]

Your argument was fallacious. You name dropped in order to appeal to popularity and/or populum. However Estes is not anyone important outside of Islam. He is the typical token convert wheeled out in an attempt at providing credibility, nothing more.

Considering most of your arguments are based on the outdated scientific miracle spiel I doubt you have anything to offer that I have not heard of nor refuted already

First of all which religion are you in?
Second can you share something with me that I may learn something from you. This would better than pure argument. Are you a missionary?

 

[outhouse]

. For you too to spend time for the sake of argument is a waste of time and not my interest.

Dear I am not interested in argument in general

Then you should not join any debates proselytizing your faith, with no credible evidence.

 

[outhouse]

This is Muhammad in the bible.

Unsubstantiated rhetoric, with no credibility what so ever.

 

[Marllo111]

I have not shown any hate what so ever. I have muslim family

What are you? Agnostic? I do not recall you mentioning it to me.. anyway this is beside the subject..

I provided a credible source that claimed the Koran used many previous biblical myths. That means the Koran plagiarized previous traditions.

The main difference between us is that you are depending on the "credible historians" for all your evidence. How can you use the creatures as evidence on the creator? This is new for me to grasp. Few decades ago we did not have the capabilities of today. If we had measured thing on what we had then the outcome would most definately be different and lacking. Ibraham and Moses are mentioned in the Torah and Bible and Quran which you say is plagiared. Do you use a light bulb to tell you if a specific wire has electricity? What if the bulb is not working good. What if these historian did not have the means to discover it now? If there is no God and you believe in any religion you lose nothing at the end but what if there is one and the historians made a mistake? For me its a big risk. Were you a muslim at first and then your study caused you to reject religion and God?

Again one more time for you.

Not one credible historian in the whole world uses that book for any credible historical studies for Jesus or Israelite history, because it does not have historicity on these topics.

Honesty.. did you see the video.. if yes do you think that all this is mere coincedence. There are lots more.. I am really wondering how you do this and what if I was in your shoes?


You need to pay attention, I have already told you im not Christian.

Can't recall that.. what are you then?

How can you debate anything if your having trouble understanding things you have already brought up and were addressed in full?

Actually you are the first one I meet who speaks from this prespective (i mean historically) which I respect but still this is not enough evidence to cancel 3 books confirming each other and many messengers. For me from a logical point of view away from faith it is worth looking at of course but I would not risk everything on it.

Then what are religions for you?


I have not seen any biblical knowledge from you yet, if you think you understand history please step up to the plate, so far your full of apologetic rhetoric and little more.

I am not that much into history but I am partly studying comparative religion and Islam. History is one tool only.

I have been calm as cucumber the whole time. It seems you have a problem being corrected.

As I said I am not into history and I have not seen you correct me on the subjects i put on the table. I do accept and can agree with you when I am wrong but when you prove me wrong on my subjects. I will think about what you say but as I said in general can not count on historians alone as you do. Actually I would check what is with the credibility of Islam for example and what is against and would go with the choice that has most evidence.


So how come you never answered this question with all your biblical knowledge?

Let me show you the current state of historicity on characters in the Koran

How is this related to my biblical knowledge and Quran at same time? Sorry for asking please bear with me but this is not my field as I said?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham

By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".

Not being able to recover something does not mean it did not exist. For me I could still believe in God BUT wonder why they could not recover something.. but I would not abandan all the evidence I have and part from him totally over it.

 

[Marllo111]

Which makes it unscientific at its very core. More importantly, if it weren't for the fact that such passages were only interpreted to mean what they are claimed (in terms of scientific knowledge) in retrospect (and using very loose interpretations of lines ripped from context), then they would have led to scientific discovery. For example, it is easy to show that the ancient Greeks held beliefs about atoms (the original atomists were ancient Greek philosophers). The fact that their exists a relationship between atoms in the Greek sense and atoms in terms of physics and chemistry has nothing to do with science or physics, and nothing in modern nuclear/atomic research or theory is reflected in the "atomic theory" of the Greek atomists.

I have read about agnostics.. but can yiu clarify more the difference between you and Atheists in brief?

Perfect example. It takes a special interpretation of "gum" (or chewed thing/substance), chewed in a particular way, to make the comparison between mudghah and an embryo, and even more wildly inaccurate reading to equate alaqah with an embryonic stage (at no point is the embryo a "blood cot").

If I get you evidence will it be of use??

I am really surprised from the level you reached in educating yourself on Islam and learning Arabic. Waw this a lot really but still this did not show you enough.

You mean, the same "big bang theory" we find in various religions apart from Jewish and Christian and that involve a process wholly distinct from the big bang of the standard model?


If the passages were about these facts, why did it take 1400 years and the development of the sciences to discover them? Because until they were discovered by scientific research, nobody could make the necessary (mis)conceptions about the relationship between these passages and scientific discovery.

As an Arab Muslim they are not mentioned in detail and from my understanding they were only meant to be understood after the discovery as a confirmation that this Quran is from Allah the all knowing and not written by that illeterate man living in the desert.. never meant to help discover anything.. just confirmation because all of this life is so unimportant to him with all its pleasures compared to Heaven..


Give me the Arabic and show me how there even exists any lowest part of the "earth" even if we rely on the English

"Addna" means lowest like "donia" which is this life described as lower in comparison with heaven. If I get you evidence that it is lowest will it help?

It wasn't.

Any evidence supporting this?

[/QUOTE] If I get you evidence will this change anything? With all what you studied you are still very skeptic at the end.. will evidence be of use?
What about surat "Al Hadid" Iron.. when he says that he sent down Iron? Still this is meaningless to you?

Did you study other religions as well? Is there another reason why you reject God and religion?

For faith is something that touches the hearts and a way for God to tell you that I am undeniably there. I hope one day you experience it.

 

[Marllo111]

Then you should not join any debates proselytizing your faith, with no credible evidence.

I don't think this concerns you in any way.

 

[Marllo111]

Unsubstantiated rhetoric, with no credibility what so ever.

Again your opinion.

 

[Marllo111]

Then you should not join any debates proselytizing your faith, with no credible evidence.

Scientific evidence in the Quran is very credible and more than enough for any sane human being.. many have accepted Islam because of these evidence that they checked.. It is not my problem that you do not see or understand.. I really feel for you.. people like you are mentioned in the Quran.. If you understood Arabic I would have added it for you. Being too blind to see what is so clear and denying the obvious. I pray for those who are like you.

 

[outhouse]

Again your opinion.

No its a fact.

Its why you have no credible sources to substantiate your claim.

 

[outhouse]

when he says that he sent down Iron? Still this is meaningless to you?

100% mythology to me. Iron existed and they tried to explain it the best way they knew, even though they were wrong.

Iron was never sent down, that is factually not how this planet formed with an iron core.

 

[outhouse]

Scientific evidence in the Quran

Then why are the historical claims regarding Israelite figures and characters and history and Jesus worthless in any historical study by the most educated and unbiased people of all religions?


Why does not one credible historian in the whole world use your book in any way for jesus studies, yet relies heavily on the NT writings?????????????


Is it because historical information is better when it was written decades after the events by peaceful people?

Or more reliable 600 years later when swords and blood were used to force this new belief?

 

[outhouse]

.. It is not my problem that you do not see or understand

Please don't be so angry and defensive here. This is a pace to debate your belief peacefully by bringing credible evidence to support your position.

If you don't like to debate, you can hang out in the same faith section where you will be safe from having to back up your opinion.

When will you start providing credible evidence? so far you brought one biased video that has no credibility, and your faith, and nothing more.

 

[Seeker of Ka]

That is an impossibility for you to know as not a single eyewitness wrote a single word about him.



Its takes an education to know what is and is not historical, it is very valuable historical evidence that gives us a glimpse of a time period and social anthropology we would never have without it.

Trustworthy? not really the right word to sue here. It is not historically accurate in many places, it was written in rhetorical prose and used mythology and Greek styles and forms.

It was written as a sort history, but that style of history is not what you would know or understand as history unless you studied this at a higher level.

If you where paying attention to the conversation then you would know that I was speaking as if the Bible was hypothetically true. I was showing how even if it was hypothetically true, then it still disproves itself. I would recommend for you to read the whole conversation before jumping in.

 

[outhouse]

then it still disproves itself. I

No it doesn't. That's your take by from what I can tell not understanding how and why the text was written, and then applying modern dogma not historical knowledge.

I would recommend for you to read the whole conversation before jumping in.

I would recommend a basic education on a topic before jumping in.

You cannot disprove religious text.

you would know that I was speaking as if the Bible was hypothetically true.

You still cannot hypothetically disprove it either.


Its obvious you were attributing words to Jesus lips, when there is no guessing or attributing, it never happened.


You can assume all you want, but that doesn't mean you can make a credible case for it.

 

[outhouse]

Here I will submit points to try to disprove the infallibility of the Bible

That's great but you don't have to, the bible was never written to be infallible, the original authors did not care about the obvious mistakes or contradictions. That's why you have no case from the get go.

Now had you worded your OP properly and stated you wanted to challenge the modern people who view the bible as infallible, I would have helped you address those issues.

 

[Shad]

First of all which religion are you in?

I have no religion.

Second can you share something with me that I may learn something from you. This would better than pure argument. Are you a missionary?

Not a missionary either.

Okay here is something you can learn. The Quran's big bang interpretation is wrong since the Earth does not exist during this event thus the verse using the words "cloven asunder" is useless.

Dear I am not interested in argument in general. I am glad you see that I am outdated and also glad for you that you are updated. Forget Estes.. I have many Christian prof. who converted as well because of science in Quran like Gary Miller and Maurice Bouchaille but I doubt they will make a difference to you either because you already have the answers to everything and all these are probably dummy's in your opinion.

Ad populum fallacy. The amount of people believing in something does not make it true. Also you are name dropping people that are scientists but being a "sceintist" does not mean one is an authority or that their opinion has any merit outside their field. Beside Gary Miller has not published anything significant as a scientist, his only work is that of a missionary and religious debater. Maurice Bouchaille is a doctor, outside of this he is a nobody. Also he never converted. His book is garbage.

Some people enjoy this arguing game.. I am actually very busy and barely find time which when so I would like to use to answer question of people interested to know a bit more of my outdated info. For you too to spend time for the sake of argument is a waste of time and not my interest. I am glad to know you are brilliant and updated. Unless you have a question on my outdated info don't waste your time. Again I am here to either learn or share my very limited knowledge.

You are not here to learn since you have not bothered to ask why your view are outdated. You instantly went on the emotional defense.

 

[outhouse]

You instantly went on the emotional defense

I understand that as fanaticism and knowledge is much like hot oil and water.

That doesn't bother me as much as people trying to trash others religious books using books less credible from a point of severe lack of knowledge on the topics.

Its like complaining about someone else fishing net having holes in it, when their casting out a net with larger holes.

I tend to see the larger the hole in the net, the larger the fanaticism and fundamentalism tends to be.

 

[sassysam29]

I think the very fact that the bible is the most argued, debated, criticized, loved, hated, applied, disregarded and talked about book EVER is pretty significant proof of its importance.

 

[outhouse]

I think the very fact that the bible is the most argued, debated, criticized, loved, hated, applied, disregarded and talked about book EVER is pretty significant proof of its importance.

Agreed, but importance has nothing to do with prove or disprove.

 

[sassysam29]

Agreed, but importance has nothing to do with prove or disprove.

I totally agree. It's just an interesting thought.