Disproving the Bible

[outhouse]

it is your own believe but the other churches say different thing

It is not belief, I have knowledge, I study religion at credible universities, not religious institutions that teach only theology.

you are divided into protostants, catholics....etc..

No I am not.

(I am not alone)

Non sequitur.

Popularity means nothing and does not dictate truth or knowledge.

did you read the Quran or you are quoting somebody else's opinion?

I have studied it for years. And have been debating people just like you for years.

I am ready to stay on until one of us proves the other wrong

No your not. You will never admit your wrong, you have already been shown error's from credible sources and flat out refuse to agree that the Koran plagiarized previous traditions.


Im sorry your book factually does not hold the historicity you think it does. Many events have literary origins, and never took place. They don't have historicity in any religion, then your so called prophet plagiarized these accounts not knowing they never took place.

Example. Moses and Abraham, have no historicity what so ever as ever being real. By all credible scholars they were literary creations.

you might be able to convert me

I don't want to. I have no interest at all to change your beliefs, right or wrong.

 

[viole]

Mankind could not have possibly restored the union between God and man that was broken by the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Since we could not atone sufficiently, God the Son atoned in our place. This was a profound act of love. It was not just for the sake of forgiveness, but to make sanctifying grace available to us again.

Unimpressive. He gave away something, to get it back three days later, and knowing it in advance. He did not die for our sins, He took a short passover vacation for our sins. Big deal

Evil does not exist so that humans can have free will. It exists as a result of free will. There is free will in heaven, but it is fixed in place by souls themselves, who have no greater or more permanent desire than to be with God. There is a lot more to this essay question, but that’s the bottom line.

Chances are not on your side. Adam used His free will to sin and Satan did the same. Even if God was around and visible to them.

And there is free will in the first place because God wants us to love him by choice, and to therefore participate with him by choice in accomplishing his will. One of the properties of having been created in the image and likeness of God is that we have independent minds. If he wanted robots instead, he would have made them instead.

It did not work with Adam, Eve, and some other fallen angels. What makes you think it will work this time with many more souls around?

God commands that we not commit adultery, but does not command that we execute people for it. God also specified that in a marriage of a man and woman, the two become one. That didn’t stop the Jews from practicing polygamy, as if five or six or more could also become one. It didn’t stop them from divorcing either, but Jesus clarified that the law given by Moses on divorce was never God’s will. (Matthew 19:8) So the law on stoning a person for adultery was not God's will either, as Jesus demonstrated.

Ergo, all those commandements in the Bible do not originate from God. For instance, executing adulterers.

God calls Israel a whore in Jeremiah 3:1, but still offers forgiveness. “Thou hast prostituted thyself to many lovers: nevertheless return to me, saith the Lord, and I will receive thee.” Love, mercy and forgiveness are what God offers us, and what he wants us to give to others. That is all consistently expressed throughout the bible.

I always wondered why God was so obsessed with Israel (actually, it is obvious why). He did not seem to care about what people were doing on the other side of the world.

Already covered above. You’re still wrong about it and also wrong in stating that God created evil. Evil is a willful choice made by creatures. It does not exist in God’s nature and is always contrary to his will.

Ergo, His ability to implement His will are suboptimal.

And your last point is a very dangerous form of blasphemy, but If you had any knowledge of God at all, I'm sure you wouldn't accuse him of being evil. You should pray for forgiveness and a better understanding of who God is..

There is no reason to believe that God is good. He could be very well be evil, for what we know. So, it is entirely possible that you are the blasphemer, by calling Him good.

Ciao

- viole

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I will agree with you after you watch the video.. hundreds of scientific facts can not be considered as sheer luck especially if they are in many different fields my friend

On one of my shelves, right after Kitab Al-Tauhid (published by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's Ministry of Islamic Affairs) and right before Omar M. Khodir's Prescribed Prayer Made Easy (Islamic Book Service) is a short book/pamphlet A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. A Muslim friend of mine gave these and other books to me when I asked for some material to learn Arabic (the Arabic texts he provided included some excellent texts, from the absolute beginner's text Easy Arabic Script to a reader in Modern Arabic). In A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam, there is an expansive list of scientific discoveries ranging from embryonic development and the cerebrum to cloud dynamics and plate tectonics that can be "found" in the Koran (not to mention an impressive list of scientists' comments on these "scientific miracles in the Holy Qur'an").

The book quotes from the Qu'ran in English, but I was given it and the other texts years ago, and have subsequently studied significantly more and, of course, have read the Koran in Arabic. Neither the translations nor the original are anything more than taking particular quotes out of context and interpreting them (even if this involves particularly poor translations) in order to make them appear to mean what they don't. This is why all the "scientific miracles" never led any scientists to discover anything, but rather led to believers to equate scientific discoveries with particular passages (not unlike the early Jewish "Jesus movement"/early Christians did with the scriptures: find ways to make the Jesus tradition appear to be predicted by scripture such that the messiah was supposed to be e.g., crucified and messianic eschatology consistent with a risen Christ).

I've read the Koran, the Sunna (not all, of course, but as only a small fragment of the ahadith are sahih, and I've read more, I don't think that which I haven't read matters here), and the Sira, and I keep up with many fields outside of my own. I cannot see in any of these texts anything that could be used to even lead to the kind of scientific breakthroughs I have too often heard or read attributed to quotes from Jewish, Christian, and Muslim literature/scriptures. And, as even an empirical proto-science (the natural philosophy of the early Modern period begat by great minds like Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Laplace, etc.) didn't occur until a few hundred years ago and to the extent it depended upon Islam it is only thanks to
1) the development of algebra
&
2) the retention of otherwise lost Greek texts that were preserved through their translation into Arabic.

I watched about 10 minutes of the video, skipped forward and watched about another 10, and decided that there wasn't anything I hadn't heard before nor any reason to think that suddenly I would reinterpret my work, the nature of science, Islamic tradition, and history itself based on a YouTube video of an apologist of the type I've encountered more than once.

I respect you and all my brother Christians

I'm agnostic.

.. You are mentioned well in our Quran

If memory serves, were I actually Christian I would at best be subject to jizyah, as I would luckily not fall prey to that demanded by Sura 9:5.

It asks us to treat you well and if you are in our countries to treat you as we do ourselves

Sura 9:123 & Sura 9:29.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

In my opinion, that would be a radical argument.

Have you read the critical edition of Q - http://www.amazon.com/The-Critical-Edition-Translations-Historical/dp/0800631498

It's the gold standard of Q scholarship IMHO.

I've read it.
I'm not overly fond (and actually generally not found) of work by N. T. Wright (and by "work" I am not including his popular books, at least those that are actually "popular" as opposed to the semi-popular 3-volume Christian Origins and the Question of God). That said, I do agree with his statement in vol. II of Christian Origins and the Question of God: "To treat Q as a document at all is controversial. To treat it as a gospel (Crossan insists emphatically on this) is more so; to postulate two or three stages of its development is to build castles in the air; to insist that the document was 'composed by the fifties, an dpossibly at Tiberias in Galilee', is to let imagination run riot."

The influence of Formgeschichte (and Dibelius and Bultmann) on analyses of "layers" of textuality that disregard or predate orality studies (apart from German folkloric traditions that were practically outdated by Bultmann's time and hold no merit whatsoever now) have, alas, too influenced analyses of Q and reconstruction of "texts" and traditions in NT studies more generally. Worse still, more "cutting edge" applications of orality studies by e.g., Kelber rely too much on Homeric studies, and not enough on research from the cognitive sciences, anthropology, and other relevant fields that we find in other NT scholarship.

 

[Marllo111]

On one of my shelves, right after Kitab Al-Tauhid (published by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's Ministry of Islamic Affairs) and right before Omar M. Khodir's Prescribed Prayer Made Easy (Islamic Book Service) is a short book/pamphlet A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. A Muslim friend of mine gave these and other books to me when I asked for some material to learn Arabic (the Arabic texts he provided included some excellent texts, from the absolute beginner's text Easy Arabic Script to a reader in Modern Arabic). In A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam, there is an expansive list of scientific discoveries ranging from embryonic development and the cerebrum to cloud dynamics and plate tectonics that can be "found" in the Koran (not to mention an impressive list of scientists' comments on these "scientific miracles in the Holy Qur'an").

The book quotes from the Qu'ran in English, but I was given it and the other texts years ago, and have subsequently studied significantly more and, of course, have read the Koran in Arabic. Neither the translations nor the original are anything more than taking particular quotes out of context and interpreting them (even if this involves particularly poor translations) in order to make them appear to mean what they don't. This is why all the "scientific miracles" never led any scientists to discover anything, but rather led to believers to equate scientific discoveries with particular passages (not unlike the early Jewish "Jesus movement"/early Christians did with the scriptures: find ways to make the Jesus tradition appear to be predicted by scripture such that the messiah was supposed to be e.g., crucified and messianic eschatology consistent with a risen Christ).

I've read the Koran, the Sunna (not all, of course, but as only a small fragment of the ahadith are sahih, and I've read more, I don't think that which I haven't read matters here), and the Sira, and I keep up with many fields outside of my own. I cannot see in any of these texts anything that could be used to even lead to the kind of scientific breakthroughs I have too often heard or read attributed to quotes from Jewish, Christian, and Muslim literature/scriptures. And, as even an empirical proto-science (the natural philosophy of the early Modern period begat by great minds like Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Laplace, etc.) didn't occur until a few hundred years ago and to the extent it depended upon Islam it is only thanks to
1) the development of algebra
&
2) the retention of otherwise lost Greek texts that were preserved through their translation into Arabic.

I watched about 10 minutes of the video, skipped forward and watched about another 10, and decided that there wasn't anything I hadn't heard before nor any reason to think that suddenly I would reinterpret my work, the nature of science, Islamic tradition, and history itself based on a YouTube video of an apologist of the type I've encountered more than once.


I'm agnostic.

If memory serves, were I actually Christian I would at best be subject to jizyah, as I would luckily not fall prey to that demanded by Sura 9:5.


Sura 9:123 & Sura 9:29.

The facts about science in Quran was not meant to help in discovering anything.. they were just to show that this is not written by that illeterate man who lived in the desert 1400 years ago but rather a much more knowledgable entity.. like when it says that iron was sent down on earth or how the embryo looks or the big bang or the constant expansion of the universe. This was in there 1400 years before the actual discovery of these facts.. what about the body of the Pharaoh which was promised to be preserved and was found 200 years ago? What about the lowest part of the earth mentioned in surat Al Room which is beside the dead sea? How was it known that this is the lowest part of land on earth? The had no equipment to measure it back then? concerning Jeziah.. yes you are right but it is paid only if you do not serve in the army.. i.e. as maintenance cost for the Muslim army which protects the town or country.. and it was a very small amount requested from capable people only. If they serve in the army they pay nothing..

 

[outhouse]

this is not written by that illeterate man who lived in the desert 1400 years ago but rather a much more knowledgable entity.

Unsubstantiated rhetoric.

How knowledgeable could this unknown entity be if it had to plagiarize other cultures mythology and claim it was real, when in fact many events never actually took place.


That's how we know it was copied/plagiarized, the historical errors.

science in Quran

Again these vague references do not help prove anything, it shows wishful thinking more then anything.

No one discounts the great scientific knowledge that came from islam in its early years.


But you cannot play connect the dots with pseudoscience trying to fit evidence to a preconceived conclusion.

 

[Marllo111]

Unsubstantiated rhetoric.

How knowledgeable could this unknown entity be if it had to plagiarize other cultures mythology and claim it was real, when in fact many events never actually took place.


That's how we know it was copied/plagiarized, the historical errors.



Again these vague references do not help prove anything, it shows wishful thinking more then anything.

No one discounts the great scientific knowledge that came from islam in its early years.


But you cannot play connect the dots with pseudoscience trying to fit evidence to a preconceived conclusion.

Dear whomever your name is.. I do not think you studied anything regarding comparative religion or Quran.. only 30% of Quran is stories or mythology.. do you know what the rest 70% contains? I doubt it.. you claim to be educated and you claim that it is plagiarized.. I do not blame you.. God choses whom he wants to see.. but for some people ignorance is a bliss.. I wanted to continue this conversation only if you were going to share real evidence and an open civilized conversation and not claims but you have no evidence of any sort. I have met many like you but I also many who had ears would hear and debate respectfully but it is a waste of time to go any further with all this hate, claims to be educated and aggression.. I though Christianity is a faith of peace and serenity which I am sure it is but you embody aggression and hate plus continuous claims of all sorts of false stuff which shows you know nothing about the subject. I know much more about the holly bible than you will ever understand about Quran.. Cool down and go back to you chit chats and forget about me.. might be hard for you but at least try to.

 

[outhouse]

have met many like you but I also many who had ears would hear and debate respectfully but it is a waste of time to go any further with all this hate,

I have not shown any hate what so ever. I have muslim family

I provided a credible source that claimed the Koran used many previous biblical myths. That means the Koran plagiarized previous traditions.


Again one more time for you.

Not one credible historian in the whole world uses that book for any credible historical studies for Jesus or Israelite history, because it does not have historicity on these topics.

I though Christianity is a faith of peace and serenity which I am sure it is but you

You need to pay attention, I have already told you im not Christian.

How can you debate anything if your having trouble understanding things you have already brought up and were addressed in full?

I know much more about the holly bible than you will ever understand about Quran.

I have not seen any biblical knowledge from you yet, if you think you understand history please step up to the plate, so far your full of apologetic rhetoric and little more.

.. Cool down and go back to you chit chats and forget about me

I have been calm as cucumber the whole time. It seems you have a problem being corrected.

How knowledgeable could this unknown entity be if it had to plagiarize other cultures mythology and claim it was real, when in fact many events never actually took place??????????.

So how come you never answered this question with all your biblical knowledge?

Let me show you the current state of historicity on characters in the Koran

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham

By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".

 

[Shad]

have you heard of someone called Yusuf Estes? He was an American Christian minister of music but he chose to convert.. listen to him on you tube.. i do not want you to convert or anything.. i am just trying to share some information with you.. so that you become educated about my religion as I am about yours..I respect you and all my brother Christians.. You are mentioned well in our Quran.. It asks us to treat you well and if you are in our countries to treat you as we do ourselves.. Peace be upon you..

Yusuf Estes is a nobody. Why should his opinion matter? Should I start linking Muslims that converted to Christianity? Does either prove anything beside that people switch their religion...

 

[Donmax]

Religion is hiding behind words and more than likely the reason is because god was a religious child thousand of years back so now those past and now human minds hiding behind words have to ask their question
"why the gap of two thousand years"

 

[Seeker of Ka]

Hallo everybody. I am a Muslim who happened to be passing through and saw your forum and question. Let me try to answer your question and I assure you I mean no insult to anyone and I respect everyone on this forum who had shared their answers and I am just looking for a civilized adult conversation from civilized Christian brothers and sisters. In Islam we believe in the original bible that was sent down to Jesus and we believe in one God and in all the messenger which Christians believe in including Jesus and that he is one of the mightiest messengers sent to humanity and without believing in him we are not accepted as Muslims. He is mentioned 25 times in the Quran and there is a chapter in our Quran called Mary. The Quran tells us that all the messengers are from the one God and all the holly books as well. We also know that the original bible was sent down in Aramaic and that it was first written down in Konie Greek few decades later and then translated to the many languages of today. There are more than 24 thousand original biblical scriptures found till today and they are all different in content from each other. In the Quran it is told to us that the mission of preserving the bible was appointed to human being and they had failed to preserve it hence today there are so many different bibles and Christian faiths as well. Eventually because God was not going to leave the human race wandering and lost without a detailed preserved final scripture he sent down his last and final messenger with a last and final revelation which in it he promised to preserve the scripture himself and not leave it to us. We have only one copy of the holly Quran in the Arabic language (a living language) and it has not been changed since 1436 years now although many have tried to change it but all trials to do that had failed so far. In the Quran God says that he has given us the answer to everything in details and this was mentioned in the bible as well when Jesus said onto his disciples that he has yet many things to say unto them but you cannot bear them now and that when the comforter comes he will explain all in detail and that he will not speak of himself and that he shall glorify me (Jesus). Prophet Muhammad did all that and in the Quran we have the answer to everything we need and every problem. This is why you have so many contradictions in the bible because it was manipulated by Christian scholars and this is what they say they did and not my story. For example you can find in the beginning of the Standard revised version of the bible in the introduction that it says that King James bible (which was the main bible for many for so many years) had great errors and that it had to be revised and corrected and that this was done by 32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence. The current bible in general contains some of Gods words, Jesus' words and narrators' as well all in one. The Quran is supposed to be Gods words only. We have a separate book for the sayings of the prophet validated in a very scientific way (to make sure he said them) and another book for the narrations by his disciples. Quran was memorized and written down during the prophet's life while the bible was written down in few decades with a different language than the one it was already revealed in. As we all know translations are personal efforts and some meaning might be lost during the process. In my trip to finding if Islam was a true faith or not (which took me several years as well as looking into the bible as well and finding the many contradictions and the confessions of the Christian scholars that they have removed that and added this whether chapter or words while the Quran was one and only one all over the world in Arabic) after I tested the Quran and tried hard to find mistakes and contradiction instead I found lots and lots of undeniable scientific facts that could have never been known to the illiterate messenger who lived in the desert 1436 years ago like the big bang theory, the constant expansion of the universe, that the beginning the universe was in smoke after the big bang, that Iron was sent down to earth in meteors because it was not from this planet (earth capability and core cannot manufacture Iron) and that the seas do not actually mix and that there is a membrane between any 2 water bodies whether a sea and another sea, ocean or river and how the embryo is formed in exact detail also that God has saved the body of the pharaoh of Moses after his drowning to keep it as a sign for everyone else and that this was there in the Quran more than 1436 years ago and the body was only found few decades ago and many many other signs that shows it is a true revelation and that this man could not have know these fact by himself. On the point of the Pharaoh's body being found a Prof. of Surgery named Maurice Bouchille has converted to Islam and written one of the very famous books called "The bible, the Quran and Science" which took him 10 years to write in which there are many undeniable facts that prove the divine revelation of the Quran. Sorry for the long introduction about Islam and the Quran but it is where I will get the answer for your question. In Islam no one has to bear anybody else's sin. You and only you are accountable for what you do and you will face judgment according to what you do here in this life and according to what was requested by God from us through his prophets. In Islam also we know that we were all asked if we want to participate in this earthly test or not before hand in a previous life and those who agreed were sent here in return for getting into heaven, the level in heaven depends and is according to our deeds here. The stronger your faith and knowledge about God and his commandment and the amount of deeds will decide for you at the end provided God's mercy. We have free will here to be able to chose our actions and kind of faith. In heaven as well there is free will but the urge and the tendency to do useless things is not there anymore. In heaven you can do whatever you wish but God takes away hate and the desire to sin and puts instead the ability to chose from many unimaginable pleasures. He promises pleasure that we cannot imagine in our human form or understand with these fleshy minds, things if we see know we would not comprehend but to make the image closer to our minds he mentions that we will have all we wish for from lands, houses, places besides all kinds of foods, fruits, Siren wives, rivers of honey milk and wine but different in taste and effect from that which we get in this world. Your reward again depends on your deeds here. It is said that if we taste win here we can never touch it in heaven except if we repent. I hope I have answered your question as much as I could according to my faith.

Why was the complete Koran only revealed to one prophet? If it was revealed to several prophets that had no knowledge of each other in completely different cultures, then would it not have lent a much stronger case for Allah's religion?

 

[Seeker of Ka]

The jesus character had no part in any NT writing what so ever.

It would be impossible for that man to tell any lie as found in the NT.

So your quote is non sequitur.

You took my quote out of context, A simple move from a simple mind. If Jesus contradicts himself in the bible (which he does) then that can mean one of two things.

1: Jesus was a lair and therefore committed sin and therefore was not the messiah.
2: The bible had to have been mistranslated or at least partially fabricated.

Either way, it shows that the New Testament is not a trustworthy source of information,

 

[outhouse]

1: Jesus was a lair and therefore committed sin and therefore was not the messiah.

That is an impossibility for you to know as not a single eyewitness wrote a single word about him.

Either way, it shows that the New Testament is not a trustworthy source of information,

Its takes an education to know what is and is not historical, it is very valuable historical evidence that gives us a glimpse of a time period and social anthropology we would never have without it.

Trustworthy? not really the right word to sue here. It is not historically accurate in many places, it was written in rhetorical prose and used mythology and Greek styles and forms.

It was written as a sort history, but that style of history is not what you would know or understand as history unless you studied this at a higher level.

 

[outhouse]

A simple move from a simple mind

Good luck with using cheap unsubstantiated insults.

If Jesus contradicts himself in the bible (which he does)

Ok so you don't have any education on this topic what so ever. Jesus never wrote a word, and Jesus never contradicted anything.


We don't even have any knowledge with certainty on things he may have said, as no one that knew him wrote a word about him.

 

[outhouse]

You don't disprove the bible.

You study is and attribute plausibility if you know how to evaluate evidence. Then when stacked up to hundreds of others work on the same subject, and only with education, can you then figure out if your opinion is middle of the road or off the map altogether.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

The facts about science in Quran was not meant to help in discovering anything..

Which makes it unscientific at its very core. More importantly, if it weren't for the fact that such passages were only interpreted to mean what they are claimed (in terms of scientific knowledge) in retrospect (and using very loose interpretations of lines ripped from context), then they would have led to scientific discovery. For example, it is easy to show that the ancient Greeks held beliefs about atoms (the original atomists were ancient Greek philosophers). The fact that their exists a relationship between atoms in the Greek sense and atoms in terms of physics and chemistry has nothing to do with science or physics, and nothing in modern nuclear/atomic research or theory is reflected in the "atomic theory" of the Greek atomists.

or how the embryo

Perfect example. It takes a special interpretation of "gum" (or chewed thing/substance), chewed in a particular way, to make the comparison between mudghah and an embryo, and even more wildly inaccurate reading to equate alaqah with an embryonic stage (at no point is the embryo a "blood cot").

the big bang or the constant expansion of the universe.

You mean, the same "big bang theory" we find in various religions apart from Jewish and Christian and that involve a process wholly distinct from the big bang of the standard model?

This was in there 1400 years before the actual discovery of these facts

If the passages were about these facts, why did it take 1400 years and the development of the sciences to discover them? Because until they were discovered by scientific research, nobody could make the necessary (mis)conceptions about the relationship between these passages and scientific discovery.

What about the lowest part of the earth mentioned in surat Al Room which is beside the dead sea?

Give me the Arabic and show me how there even exists any lowest part of the "earth" even if we rely on the English

How was it known that this is the lowest part of land on earth?

It wasn't.

yes you are right but it is paid only if you do not serve in the army

Any evidence supporting this?[/QUOTE]

 

[Marllo111]

Why was the complete Koran only revealed to one prophet? If it was revealed to several prophets that had no knowledge of each other in completely different cultures, then would it not have lent a much stronger case for Allah's religion?

Very good question.. According to our belief all messengers were sent to us for the same purpose to worship the one and only God besides the commandements which are more or less similar in all books (like not to steel , not to kill, not to commit adultery....etc..) and some legislations. Every time he sent a mesenger to his people and trusted keeping the commandments and scriptures intact after a while it gets changed by some people to suit their understanding or in translation and thus the many version of the bible available now (do not forget that we believe in Jesus and the original bible) and because Quran is the last revelation to man kind it had to have all details and legislation in it to make everything clear to everyone and had to be preserved. This time God promised in the Quran to keep it himself. Thus today there is only one copy in the original language the same in every country with not a letter extra or less. So There are common grounds always. Another quote from the bible is Jesus saying to his desciples: I have many thing to say unto you but you can not bear (meaning understand) them now ( I will add the gospel and the whereabouts after I look them up) and he also says in John 16:7 up to 16:15 prophesizing Muhammad (spirit of truth) and that he will glorify Jesus and that he will guide people into all truth. This is Muhammad in the bible. No one has come since 2000 years to do that except him. Quran after I looked into it and I am not a religious person and I was very skeptic about it as well in the beginning but only looking for logical answers and facts. I found all I needed there. It has legislation.. no contradiction and many scientific facts (which Muslims did not understand except after the discovery) (all recently discovered) to prove it is God speeking and not even Muhammad. In it God even challenges us to find one contradiction in it which many many have tried and failed. Sorry for the long reply. I hope this answers you.

 

[Marllo111]

Yusuf Estes is a nobody. Why should his opinion matter? Should I start linking Muslims that converted to Christianity? Does either prove anything beside that people switch their religion...

Hallo.. if you do not like what I write.. apology and don't read it. I meant listen to him. Remember that Jesus (peace be upon him) also until he left was a nobody to most people but only some followers. He was even considered a criminal and was hunted down. Being nobody to the mob does not neccessarily mean you are nobody in Gods sight.If you have a question about Islam I would be happy to answer it for you with all respect to both of us.

 

[Shad]

Hallo.. if you do not like what I write.. apology and don't read it. I meant listen to him. Remember that Jesus (peace be upon him) also until he left was a nobody to most people but only some followers. He was even considered a criminal and was hunted down. Being nobody to the mob does not neccessarily mean you are nobody in Gods sight.If you have a question about Islam I would be happy to answer it for you with all respect to both of us.

Your argument was fallacious. You name dropped in order to appeal to popularity and/or populum. However Estes is not anyone important outside of Islam. He is the typical token convert wheeled out in an attempt at providing credibility, nothing more.

Considering most of your arguments are based on the outdated scientific miracle spiel I doubt you have anything to offer that I have not heard of nor refuted already

 

[Marllo111]

Your argument was fallacious. You name dropped in order to appeal to popularity and/or populum. However Estes is not anyone important outside of Islam. He is the typical token convert wheeled out in an attempt at providing credibility, nothing more.

Considering most of your arguments are based on the outdated scientific miracle spiel I doubt you have anything to offer that I have not heard of nor refuted already

Dear I am not interested in argument in general. I am glad you see that I am outdated and also glad for you that you are updated. Forget Estes.. I have many Christian prof. who converted as well because of science in Quran like Gary Miller and Maurice Bouchaille but I doubt they will make a difference to you either because you already have the answers to everything and all these are probably dummy's in your opinion. Some people enjoy this arguing game.. I am actually very busy and barely find time which when so I would like to use to answer question of people interested to know a bit more of my outdated info. For you too to spend time for the sake of argument is a waste of time and not my interest. I am glad to know you are brilliant and updated. Unless you have a question on my outdated info don't waste your time. Again I am here to either learn or share my very limited knowledge.