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Do "Believers" really believe?

Booko

Deviled Hen
LogDog said:
I think he was trying to correct me on my description of Rumi being a teacher.

Expert on religion? Come on man.

It would serve you better to be a little more observant. Failing to do so will cause people to wonder what else you've missed in your reading.

And yes, you're the one making the blanket pronouncements that make it out that you know more about religion than us Great Unwashed Theistic Masses.

If you don't care for the perception, then you could always modify your writing style. I'm hardly the only one that's getting that subtext. Read the replies and see for yourself.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
LogDog said:
I went back through the entire thread and nowhere did I find a statement of mine that states I know everything about religion.

Ok, so now look up "implication" in your Webster's.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
LogDog said:
Does this not answer your question? Posted a few pages back.

A number of you have asked why I and other atheists won't leave well enough alone, accept the fact that religion "is" and let believers believe. To that I will say it is religions impediment of the unrestrained progression of mankind that will compel some to be vocal in their opposition for its advancement and to question its irrational foundation.

I asked you a question about that statement.

I suppose you're going to dodge that one too. :sarcastic
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Victor said:
I haven't seen Him. Nor do I have to, to extend belief. Typically, the non-theist looks at reality only (or primarily) from the empirical plane. You may no longer believe in miracles or revelation, but we do, so your countering thoughts should at least take that into consideration for the sake of argument. Attaching meaning is a normative human action. I just place meaning on different things then you do.

Actually, Victor, I don't really do miracles, and as an atheist I certainly didn't do revelation -- but I do believe in history, so that made the change possible. :)
 

LogDog

Active Member
Booko said:
It would serve you better to be a little more observant. Failing to do so will cause people to wonder what else you've missed in your reading.

And yes, you're the one making the blanket pronouncements that make it out that you know more about religion than us Great Unwashed Theistic Masses.

If you don't care for the perception, then you could always modify your writing style. I'm hardly the only one that's getting that subtext. Read the replies and see for yourself.

Your perception of me is not of concern. It's your perception of reality that is.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
DreGod07 said:
I've been an atheist for many years. but i will say this. it is VERY important to talk to theist and respect their way of life even if we do not agree with it. it is not our job or right to convert or convince others they should think as we do. that is one of the best things i like about this forum over others. i don't want to be converted because i can't be.

other forums are full of people preaching ye old be saved or you're going to hell sermon. i appreciate that you all take the time to converse with me and share your views. do i believe in gods...NO...but i won't squash anybodies right to believe what they want.

Should I be allowed to question you when you whip out chapter and verse...YES....It's my right to do so.....Do you have to respond...NO......it's your right to do so.....:eek:

Well said!

while i respect and agree to a certain degree with LogDog i personally find that starting a thread like this will end with nothing accomplished but a bunch of insults. it reminds me of a dog, no pun intended Logdog, chasing its tale. I'm not sure how far you all tend to take this thread.....

Oh who knows, but I'm curious to see if he'll bother to try and answer my pointed questions, since everything he's said about why people would be theists is disproved by my experience and existence.

It'll be interesting to see if he's got any curiousity in him. Were I still an atheist, I would be asking lots of questions right now and not dodging them.

Perhaps I'm just more of a voyeur. ;)
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
LogDog said:
Here's my answer for the second or third time.

They've come under the spell of religion and a false belief derived from deception. An atheist is not immune to it.

Here's my gazillionth request for you to back up that statement by showing me how that applies to my life.

Anyone can say any absurd thing if they like. It's a real thinker who can find a way to support it.

So pick up the glove, bubba. It ain't hard.
 

LogDog

Active Member
Booko said:
Here's my gazillionth request for you to back up that statement by showing me how that applies to my life.

Anyone can say any absurd thing if they like. It's a real thinker who can find a way to support it.

So pick up the glove, bubba. It ain't hard.

How does it apply to your life? Are you not religious Booko? Do you not believe in a supernatural whatever?
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
ÄĀṮṬØ said:
Mostly in the physical form. But also personal experiences
Ah, but therein lies the problem. As an atheist I would've demanded proof in a physical form.

The thing is, epistemology has several tools available, and empiricism and logic are only two of them. Tradition (a.k.a. history) and inspiration (a.k.a. intuition) are others.

All epistemological methods have their strengths and their shortcomings. The shortcoming of empiricism is it only deals with fairly objective subjects.

Example: Prove to me that your mother loves you.

Now, you "know" she does, but proving it in an empircal sense is a tough nut to crack, because there are alternate explanations for observed behaviour, and short of inventing a mind reading machine, there's no way to "know" in the strict fashion that science uses that term. The problem is, you're not dealing with an objective subject, but something that's very open to interpretation and individual perception.

Religious belief has the same problem. Trying to apply the tools of science to it is like trying to drive a nail in the wall with a buzz saw. It's a mismatch, to say the least.

Empiricism and reason certainly have a role to play in subjects like faith, but those roles are not predominent, any more than they are in, say, human relationships.

As I suggested, perhaps the problem is not that God is failing to show Himself, but that people are looking for the wrong kind of evidence in the wrong places to begin with.

For a very long while, the demand of some atheists that God be proved in a scientific sense of "prove" has struck me as little more than a category error.

That doesn't mean I think the question isn't worth asking "Why isn't the proof clearer?" or that anyone is nuts for asking it. To ask the question is a critical step on the journey, so have at it. :)
 

UnTheist

Well-Known Member
Booko said:
Ah, but therein lies the problem. As an atheist I would've demanded proof in a physical form.

The thing is, epistemology has several tools available, and empiricism and logic are only two of them. Tradition (a.k.a. history) and inspiration (a.k.a. intuition) are others.

All epistemological methods have their strengths and their shortcomings. The shortcoming of empiricism is it only deals with fairly objective subjects.

Example: Prove to me that your mother loves you.

Now, you "know" she does, but proving it in an empircal sense is a tough nut to crack, because there are alternate explanations for observed behaviour, and short of inventing a mind reading machine, there's no way to "know" in the strict fashion that science uses that term. The problem is, you're not dealing with an objective subject, but something that's very open to interpretation and individual perception.

Religious belief has the same problem. Trying to apply the tools of science to it is like trying to drive a nail in the wall with a buzz saw. It's a mismatch, to say the least.

Empiricism and reason certainly have a role to play in subjects like faith, but those roles are not predominent, any more than they are in, say, human relationships.

As I suggested, perhaps the problem is not that God is failing to show Himself, but that people are looking for the wrong kind of evidence in the wrong places to begin with.

For a very long while, the demand of some atheists that God be proved in a scientific sense of "prove" has struck me as little more than a category error.

That doesn't mean I think the question isn't worth asking "Why isn't the proof clearer?" or that anyone is nuts for asking it. To ask the question is a critical step on the journey, so have at it. :)

Well, as far as I know, I have not had any unusual experiences in my life. I know a God cannot be proven scientifically.

I know my mother loves me because she nurtures me, cares about me, respects my opinions, ect. Evidence like that seems alot more obvious than knowing God created the universe.
 

UnTheist

Well-Known Member
LogDog said:
I'm sure it seems that way to you.
Religion has keept people together. Religion has made peace. You are in no position to say religion was a huge impediment to mankind.
 

LogDog

Active Member
Ä???Ø said:
You are in no position to say religion was a huge impediment to mankind.

How do you figure?

BTW. The term "huge" wasn't in my statement. But go ahead, feel free to make my statements read the way you want. The religious have alway seemed well versed in manipulating the meaning of scripture to suit their desires, why should I think my words would be any different.
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
LogDog said:
BTW. The term "huge" wasn't in my statement. But go ahead, feel free to make my statements read the way you want. The religious have alway seemed well versed in manipulating the meaning of scripture to suit their desires, why should I think my words would be any different.

Because all religions use scripture. Just as all religions appear to have a concept of hell and heaven and use them as sticks and carrots?

I think that what most people are taking you to task with is the way you phrase things. If someone were to have come on here questioning the validity of being an atheist, they would have gotten the same response- possibly even worse. If you're simply wanting people to say "Gasp! How dare you be an atheist- my religion doesn't allow for that kind of thought!", then you'd be better served on another forum. On the other hand, you're welcome to stay here- it would just be better for debate if you could tone down the rhetoric a bit.
 

LogDog

Active Member
Feathers in Hair said:
Because all religions use scripture. Just as all religions appear to have a concept of hell and heaven and use them as sticks and carrots?

I think that what most people are taking you to task with is the way you phrase things. If someone were to have come on here questioning the validity of being an atheist, they would have gotten the same response- possibly even worse. If you're simply wanting people to say "Gasp! How dare you be an atheist- my religion doesn't allow for that kind of thought!", then you'd be better served on another forum. On the other hand, you're welcome to stay here- it would just be better for debate if you could tone down the rhetoric a bit.

Just my observation Feathers. I guess I should amend all my past and future post by saying "some but not all religion..."
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Booko said:
Actually, Victor, I don't really do miracles, and as an atheist I certainly didn't do revelation -- but I do believe in history, so that made the change possible. :)

The Lord works in mysterious ways...:D . As do I Sharon.....:)
 
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