Do "Believers" really believe?

[Green Gaia]

Does this not answer your question? Posted a few pages back.

A number of you have asked why I and other atheists won't leave well enough alone, accept the fact that religion "is" and let believers believe. To that I will say it is religions impediment of the unrestrained progression of mankind that will compel some to be vocal in their opposition for its advancement and to question its irrational foundation.

So the answer is, "Yes" - thanks for clearing that up. So now, what makes you any different than the proselytizing evangelical Christian who's here to convert us to his way of thinking?

 

[UnTheist]

I haven't seen Him. Nor do I have to, to extend belief. Typically, the non-theist looks at reality only (or primarily) from the empirical plane. You may no longer believe in miracles or revelation, but we do, so your countering thoughts should at least take that into consideration for the sake of argument. Attaching meaning is a normative human action. I just place meaning on different things then you do.

If by miracles you mean experiences, I don't rule out the possibility of it happening to me

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If that were the case, how is Pooky non-existent?

Because it's all in the mind....

uhhh-ohhh...now I done..done it...

 

[Quiddity]

If by miracles you mean experiences, I don't rule out the possibility of it happening to me

How could you possibly do that? Well at least this tells me you're not a hardcore atheist.

 

[UnTheist]

How could you possibly do that? Well at least this tells me you're not a hardcore atheist.

Correct. I am a Weak Atheist, or Agnostic Humanist. However you want to call it.

 

[Booko]

To that I will say it is religions impediment of the unrestrained progression of mankind that will compel some to be vocal in their opposition for its advancement and to question its irrational foundation.

Well, religion has certainly been known to stand in the way of human progress at times, but if you wish to assert that it's universally the case, I'm interested to read your proof of it.

 

[Booko]

When presented with the opposing perspectives of theism and atheism, an educated individual with no prior knowledge of the concept of religion would scoff at the theistic assertion. In my opinion, of course.

Explain how people become theists after being atheists.

Good luck with that, Danisty. I think I've asked him twice in this thread already, and he's dodged the question so far.

I'm curious to know how I, as an atheist with much education in the sciences, would suddenly one day, when there was no traumatic thing going on in life and everything was peachy-keen, would just decide to become irrational and take up theism.

Gee, Logdog, are you up for tackling this topic, this time around? Or are you gonna dodge it again?

*tosses glove on table*

 

[Booko]

A reasonable excuse for believing in something one cannot see or feel is desire: theists desire that belief.

*sigh* See my previous challenge to explain how that could possibly apply to me.

Frankly I'd prefer to be able to have a glass of bordeux with dinner.

Imagination does allow us to feel or see something that isn't necessarily experienced by others.

It also helps considerably with inductive reasoning.

There's a name for an unimaginative sort who does scientific work: technician.

When people talk about science like it depends entirely and totally on empiricism and reason, frankly I wonder how much science they've actually done (perhaps they've only learned it in books).

Is something imagined not physically existent? If it is not, then how does it exist?

We imagined neutrinos long before we could detect them, but they still existed all the same.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I've been an atheist for many years. but i will say this. it is VERY important to talk to theist and respect their way of life even if we do not agree with it. it is not our job or right to convert or convince others they should think as we do. that is one of the best things i like about this forum over others. i don't want to be converted because i can't be.

other forums are full of people preaching ye old be saved or you're going to hell sermon. i appreciate that you all take the time to converse with me and share your views. do i believe in gods...NO...but i won't squash anybodies right to believe what they want.

Should I be allowed to question you when you whip out chapter and verse...YES....It's my right to do so.....Do you have to respond...NO......it's your right to do so.....

while i respect and agree to a certain degree with LogDog i personally find that starting a thread like this will end with nothing accomplished but a bunch of insults. it reminds me of a dog, no pun intended Logdog, chasing its tale. I'm not sure how far you all tend to take this thread.....

 

[Booko]

They've come under the spell of religion and a false belief derived from deception.

Explain yourself. And me.

Don't dodge the question again.

 

[Booko]

This is the same regurgitating babble that is always used. Theist attach meaning to something and it's labeled a delusion. I often wonder if people really believe this or if it's just something they enjoy spewing out to justify their own conclusions/feelings about it.

Well, Victor, if he continues to be unwilling or unable to explain my experience vis a vis religion, then that'll be answer enough.

 

[Booko]

I take issue with his teachings in that religion itself has proven to impede unity.

You take issue with Rumi?

Funny, your posts seem to reveal someone who's definition of and experience with "religion" is quite limited, mostly to a minority form of one Western religion.

 

[Booko]

No, not whatever.... you assert yourself to be intellectually superior to us simple-minded religious folk. You should at least get your facts straight.

Maize is right here, Logdog. If you want to set yourself up as some sort of expert in religion and its effects through human history, then you had better be able to demonstrate some actual knowledge on the subject.

 

[LogDog]

Good luck with that, Danisty. I think I've asked him twice in this thread already, and he's dodged the question so far.

I'm curious to know how I, as an atheist with much education in the sciences, would suddenly one day, when there was no traumatic thing going on in life and everything was peachy-keen, would just decide to become irrational and take up theism.

Gee, Logdog, are you up for tackling this topic, this time around? Or are you gonna dodge it again?

*tosses glove on table*

Here's my answer for the second or third time.

They've come under the spell of religion and a false belief derived from deception. An atheist is not immune to it.

 

[Booko]

Nice deflection of your attempt to convince everyone Rumi was simply a poet.

Save you? Haven't you already been saved?

:biglaugh:

Oh...this is gonna be fun to watch...

 

[Booko]

Unlilke other people, I would not deny it if He really came to me. I understood what you meant. But if God decides to show Himself to some people and not others, that is His fault, not mine.

Maybe the problem is more in the definition of what it means to "show Himself." Ah, but that's probably another thread in its own right. Could be interesting, though.

 

[Booko]

I knew it.

Okay. You'll be saved from wherever it is your religion says you'll go after death if you don't have faith.

That said, there's little doubt in my mind that you'll find some way to counter even this statement.

Well, if Maize doesn't find a way, I'm sure I would have no trouble countering it if you applied it to me.

You seem to have more of a fixation on the notion of an afterlife than many theists do.

Oh yeah...I forgot....you dodged my earlier pointed comments and questions on that subject.

 

[LogDog]

Maize is right here, Logdog. If you want to set yourself up as some sort of expert in religion and its effects through human history, then you had better be able to demonstrate some actual knowledge on the subject.

I think he was trying to correct me on my description of Rumi being a teacher.

Expert on religion? Come on man.

 

[UnTheist]

Maybe the problem is more in the definition of what it means to "show Himself." Ah, but that's probably another thread in its own right. Could be interesting, though.

Mostly in the physical form. But also personal experiences

 

[Booko]

I knew it.

Okay. You'll be saved from wherever it is your religion says you'll go after death if you don't have faith.

That said, there's little doubt in my mind that you'll find some way to counter even this statement.

Well, if Maize doesn't find a way (that would amaze me), I'm sure I would have no trouble countering it if you applied it to me.

You seem to have more of a fixation on the notion of an afterlife than many theists do.

Oh yeah...I forgot....you dodged my earlier pointed comments and questions on that subject.