Do disagreements between Baha'is have any significance for anyone else?

[CG Didymus]

proselytize: convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. https://www.google.com

I am not attempting to convert anyone to the Baha'i Faith so I am not proselytizing.

There's more to the definition:
convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another...
synonyms: evangelize, convert, save, redeem, win over, preach (to), recruit, act as a missionary

• advocate or promote (a belief or course of action).
  synonyms: promote, advocate, champion, advance, further, spread, proclaim, peddle, preach, endorse, urge, recommend, boost

Even in the first part there is the word "opinion". It would be hard to convince anyone here in the debate section isn't trying to change other people's opinion. But in the second set of words defining "proselytize", all a person has to be doing is to promote, spread, and endorse a belief. Maybe we're all doing a little "proselytizing"? I know it's a bad word in the Baha'i vocabulary, but with these broader definitions, is it really all that bad?

Another word seems to be "convert". I remember a Baha'i saying that they "find" Baha'is, they don't convert them. That Baha'is went on to explain what they meant was... that they go out and spread the word about the Baha'i Faith, and people that already share a lot of the Baha'i principles are then drawn in to learn more and many of them join. So technically Baha'is aren't converting? But, it's still telling someone about the Baha'i Faith, and that person eventually joins. So, no matter what word you'd rather use for this process, it's kind of like converting isn't it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Has one read all of Bahaullah's "over 100 volumes of Writings."? Please.

Regards

No as most have not been translated and I do not read Arabic or Persian.

I have read all the translated writings of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There's more to the definition:
convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another...
synonyms: evangelize, convert, save, redeem, win over, preach (to), recruit, act as a missionary

• advocate or promote (a belief or course of action).
  synonyms: promote, advocate, champion, advance, further, spread, proclaim, peddle, preach, endorse, urge, recommend, boost

Even in the first part there is the word "opinion". It would be hard to convince anyone here in the debate section isn't trying to change other people's opinion. But in the second set of words defining "proselytize", all a person has to be doing is to promote, spread, and endorse a belief. Maybe we're all doing a little "proselytizing"? I know it's a bad word in the Baha'i vocabulary, but with these broader definitions, is it really all that bad?

Another word seems to be "convert". I remember a Baha'i saying that they "find" Baha'is, they don't convert them. That Baha'is went on to explain what they meant was... that they go out and spread the word about the Baha'i Faith, and people that already share a lot of the Baha'i principles are then drawn in to learn more and many of them join. So technically Baha'is aren't converting? But, it's still telling someone about the Baha'i Faith, and that person eventually joins. So, no matter what word you'd rather use for this process, it's kind of like converting isn't it?

No Baha'i can convert anybody. Faith is Gods Gift, or Gods Punishment, it is not ours to give either of those. That is really applicable to all God's Faiths.

Our purity of heart and justice of mind is what attracts either result.

Apparently if I add in my opinion, according to the moderation of this site, it changes it from proselytizing, to a personal view, even if it still says the same thing both ways.

Most likely why @wizanda has 'In my opinion' as the footnote.

To me Proselytizing in Baha'i Law has the meaning of trying to convert against anothers will. It is when a given gift becomes pride driven.

With Abrahamic Faiths one may as well ban ever participant, as all the Holy Books have an obligation to share the Message. It is those books that set the line as to what is Proselytizing, not a dictionary.

Example;

Matthew 10:14"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."

So while there are questions one can answer. If there is a remark that can be clarified, one can respond with an approproate reply, if nothing further is said, move on.

IN MY OPINION

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hahahaha

 

[Jim]

It is those books that set the line as to what is Proselytizing, not a dictionary.

- And I see those books telling me that what matters in a forum is where the forum administrators want us to draw the line.

 

[paarsurrey]

No as most have not been translated and I do not read Arabic or Persian.
I have read all the translated writings of Baha'u'llah.
Regards Tony

Thanks for telling this.
One will appreciate that the translations are not an alternative of the original work in the original language. Arabic is not my mother
language but I don't rely fully on any translation of Quran so I study Quran directly from the Arabic original text of Quran. Translations are the understanding of the translators , not more than that.
It is for this that I asked my Bahais friends for my investigation for truth to suggest me:

• a core book of Bahaullah for comparison with Quran.
• the original language it was written.
• It should be of approximately the same size as is Quran.
• It should have both claims and reasons in brief, not by somebody else.

So far, no such book has been suggested to me by the Bahaism friends here.

Please make an effort to read Bahaullah's book in the original language he wrote them, if one pleases.

Any other Bahai or Non-Bahai who has read all books of Bahaullah, please.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for telling this.
One will appreciate that the translations are not an alternative of the original work in the original language. Arabic is not my mother
language but I don't rely fully on any translation of Quran so I study Quran directly from the Arabic original text of Quran. Translations are the understanding of the translators , not more than that.
It is for this that I asked my Bahais friends for my investigation for truth to suggest me:

• a core book of Bahaullah for comparison with Quran.
• the original language it was written.
• It should be of approximately the same size as is Quran.
• It should have both claims and reasons in brief, not by somebody else.

So far, no such book has been suggested to me by the Bahaism friends here.

Please make an effort to read Bahaullah's book in the original language he wrote them, if one pleases.

Any other Bahai or Non-Bahai who has read all books of Bahaullah, please.

Regards

I Will leave that for you to pursue.

I did make my suggestions in quite a few posts.

Stay well and happy.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

There's more to the definition:
convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another...
synonyms: evangelize, convert, save, redeem, win over, preach (to), recruit, act as a missionary

• advocate or promote (a belief or course of action).
  synonyms: promote, advocate, champion, advance, further, spread, proclaim, peddle, preach, endorse, urge, recommend, boost

Even in the first part there is the word "opinion". It would be hard to convince anyone here in the debate section isn't trying to change other people's opinion. But in the second set of words defining "proselytize", all a person has to be doing is to promote, spread, and endorse a belief. Maybe we're all doing a little "proselytizing"? I know it's a bad word in the Baha'i vocabulary, but with these broader definitions, is it really all that bad?

Another word seems to be "convert". I remember a Baha'i saying that they "find" Baha'is, they don't convert them. That Baha'is went on to explain what they meant was... that they go out and spread the word about the Baha'i Faith, and people that already share a lot of the Baha'i principles are then drawn in to learn more and many of them join. So technically Baha'is aren't converting? But, it's still telling someone about the Baha'i Faith, and that person eventually joins. So, no matter what word you'd rather use for this process, it's kind of like converting isn't it?

I can only speak for myself and my own motives, not for anyone else's. I know I am not trying to convince anyone of the Baha'i Faith. One reason is because I know it is not my job according to Baha'u'llah, but the other reason is that I sincerely believe that everyone has to make their own decisions since we all have free will. I would not want someone to be convinced by me because that would mean they did not do what they needed to do to convince themselves.

 

[paarsurrey]

I can only speak for myself and my own motives, not for anyone else's. I know I am not trying to convince anyone of the Baha'i Faith. One reason is because I know it is not my job according to Baha'u'llah, but the other reason is that I sincerely believe that everyone has to make their own decisions since we all have free will. I would not want someone to be convinced by me because that would mean they did not do what they needed to do to convince themselves.

To me one should give one reasons with so rich substance that it should surpass the reasons given by others. That will convince others naturally.

Regards
____________
[2:257]
There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah

 

[Trailblazer]

To me one should give one reasons with so rich substance that it should surpass the reasons given by others. That will convince others naturally.

Do you mean the reasons why I believe in Baha'u'llah?
Why would you think that would convince anyone naturally?

[2:257]
There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah

That is not a lot different from what Baha'u'llah wrote.
I love what I have read of the Qur'an.

 

[CG Didymus]

I can only speak for myself and my own motives, not for anyone else's. I know I am not trying to convince anyone of the Baha'i Faith. One reason is because I know it is not my job according to Baha'u'llah, but the other reason is that I sincerely believe that everyone has to make their own decisions since we all have free will. I would not want someone to be convinced by me because that would mean they did not do what they needed to do to convince themselves.

It's such a fine line between what some call proselytizing and what some call teaching or sharing their beliefs. Same thing with "convincing". If you give a convincing argument, you're going to change some people minds. The tough thing for Baha'is to talk about, and not offend people from other religions, is that Baha'is belief they have the truth for today. So people from other religions are going to argue and debate over that stance. So to support your beliefs, you've got to try to be convincing... which makes others uncomfortable and threatened, and makes them feel like the Baha'is are trying to promote, advocate, champion, advance, further, spread, proclaim, endorse, urge, recommend their beliefs. And all those words are listed as synonyms for proselytizing. So what can you do?

 

[Trailblazer]

It's such a fine line between what some call proselytizing and what some call teaching or sharing their beliefs. Same thing with "convincing". If you give a convincing argument, you're going to change some people minds. The tough thing for Baha'is to talk about, and not offend people from other religions, is that Baha'is belief they have the truth for today. So people from other religions are going to argue and debate over that stance. So to support your beliefs, you've got to try to be convincing... which makes others uncomfortable and threatened, and makes them feel like the Baha'is are trying to promote, advocate, champion, advance, further, spread, proclaim, endorse, urge, recommend their beliefs. And all those words are listed as synonyms for proselytizing. So what can you do?

That is what happens, and that might be what people feel like we are doing, trying to promote, advocate, champion, advance, further, spread, proclaim, endorse, urge, recommend their beliefs. But that does not mean that is what we are actually doing.

What we can do is just not care what people think we are doing. If we are doing it we need to own up, but if we are not doing it, we do not need to admit to doing it, because that would be dishonest.

Nobody can ever know another person's motives unless that person shares their motives. It is outrageously arrogant for anyone to say they know someone else's motives according to what they see that person post. They cannot know why that person is posting what they do.

 

[paarsurrey]

Do you mean the reasons why I believe in Baha'u'llah?
Why would you think that would convince anyone naturally?

That is not a lot different from what Baha'u'llah wrote.
I love what I have read of the Qur'an.

"Do you mean the reasons why I believe in Baha'u'llah?
Why would you think that would convince anyone naturally?" Unquote.

If reasons and arguments cannot convince others naturally, then what else will convince them unnaturally?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Do you mean the reasons why I believe in Baha'u'llah?
Why would you think that would convince anyone naturally?

That is not a lot different from what Baha'u'llah wrote.
I love what I have read of the Qur'an.

"Do you mean the reasons why I believe in Baha'u'llah?
Why would you think that would convince anyone naturally?" Unquote.

If reasons and arguments cannot convince others naturally, then what else will convince them unnaturally?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
[2:257]
There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah

Do you mean the reasons why I believe in Baha'u'llah?
Why would you think that would convince anyone naturally?

That is not a lot different from what Baha'u'llah wrote.
I love what I have read of the Qur'an.

Thanks for appreciation of Quran verse [2:257].
It was quoted in support of what I meant by naturally.
Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

"Do you mean the reasons why I believe in Baha'u'llah?
Why would you think that would convince anyone naturally?" Unquote.

If reasons and arguments cannot convince others naturally, then what else will convince them unnaturally?

Regards

People have to convince themselves. Nobody else should convince them what to believe. Baha'u'llah said that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself.

 

[paarsurrey]

Thanks for telling this.
One will appreciate that the translations are not an alternative of the original work in the original language. Arabic is not my mother
language but I don't rely fully on any translation of Quran so I study Quran directly from the Arabic original text of Quran. Translations are the understanding of the translators , not more than that.
It is for this that I asked my Bahais friends for my investigation for truth to suggest me:

• a core book of Bahaullah for comparison with Quran.
• the original language it was written.
• It should be of approximately the same size as is Quran.
• It should have both claims and reasons in brief, not by somebody else.

So far, no such book has been suggested to me by the Bahaism friends here.

Please make an effort to read Bahaullah's book in the original language he wrote them, if one pleases.

Any other Bahai or Non-Bahai who has read all books of Bahaullah, please.

Some Bahaism friends here have contended that all books written by Bahaullah altogether make one book. Since not all books written/authored by Bahaullah have not been translated in English, and the friends here have read only the translated one's so it means that none of them has read the whole book written/authored by Bahaullah.
Is it so, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Some Bahaism friends here have contended that all books written by Bahaullah altogether make one book. Since not all books written/authored by Bahaullah have not been translated in English, and the friends here have read only the translated one's so it means that none of them has read the whole book written/authored by Bahaullah.
Is it so, please?

Regards

Parrsurry a metephor is an attempt to explain a spiritual understanding.

Lets try another way.

Was the Quran always a single book?

"...Thus, all the verses of the Quran that describe the creation of the universe and people, judgment day, exemplary stories of the people who lived before and the beliefs, worship, morals and legal bases that believers should obey were collected together into a single-volume book. Each of the verses was taught by the archangel Gabriel and declared by Prophet Muhammad. The verse is the name given to each sentence of the Quran and the surah is the name given to each part of the holy book. There are 6,236 verses, 114 surahs and about 323,000 letters in the Quran...."

History of the compilation of Quran

This is the Baha'i Writings and it is about 100 volumes. The important thing is they are not passed down stories, they are comfirmed to be written by Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

paarsurrey said: ↑
[2:257]
There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah

Thanks for appreciation of Quran verse [2:257].
It was quoted in support of what I meant by naturally.
Regards

Parrsurry if I was to use this verse from the Bible to support my Faith in Christ, how would you respond?

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

- And I see those books telling me that what matters in a forum is where the forum administrators want us to draw the line.

All those books exist despite the attempts to silence the wisdom in them. A strong form of moderation.

At the same time that moderation happens, many other people see no need to moderate what they see as good advice.

Regards Tony