Do disagreements between Baha'is have any significance for anyone else?

[ajay0]

Sometimes there are wide divergences between Baha'is in our interpretations of Baha'i scriptures. Some examples are in relation to homosexuality and gay marriage, the ineligibility of women for election to our supreme council, the nature and scope of that council's authority, the future role of the Baha'i Faith and its institutions in society, and even the divinity and infallibility of Baha'u'llah and the reality or existence of G_d. In my reading of Baha'i scriptures, no person or institution today has any authority to say that any of those interpretations are right or wrong, but that's only my personal opinion. There might be Baha'is who disagree with that. On the other hand, I don't see anyone, including the Universal House of Justice, claiming to have that authority.

Does any of that have any significance for anyone else but Baha'is? I see other people besides Baha'is discussing the Baha'i Faith. Does that divergence in Baha'i interpretations of Baha'i scriptures, and the absence of any Baha'i or Baha'i institution claiming that their interpretations have any authority, make any difference to anyone besides Baha'is, in how you think about the Baha'i Faith?

Glad you put this over here.

The ineligibility of women for election to the supreme council seems to me a highly regressive rule in todays times and ought to be changed if the bahais want to convey a progressive image of themselves to the world.

That women are capable of effective leadership, adminstration ,teaching and priesthood is clearly shown by the Prajapita Brahmakumaris, which is the only spiritual organisation in the world led by women, and are a monotheistic sect themselves, which has teaching centres all over the world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

HOW do you know my intentions better than I do? What gives you that capability?

I don't need it. All I need is to be able to see that what you're doing and what you say you're doing don't match.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't need it. All I need is to be able to see that what you're doing and what you say you're doing don't match.

You do not know WHY I am doing WHAT I am doing. Only I know that, and God knows that.
I explained the REASON why to Jim last night:

I never said that the reason Baha'ullah wants us to teach is so more people will become Baha'is because Baha'u'llah never said that is the reason we should teach. Baha'u'llah said that we should proclaim His Message wholly for the sake of God. That is what I do. It is not my responsibility if someone chooses to become a Baha'i or not, and I never even think about it.

“Be unrestrained as the wind, while carrying the Message of Him Who hath caused the Dawn of Divine Guidance to break. Consider, how the wind, faithful to that which God hath ordained, bloweth upon all the regions of the earth, be they inhabited or desolate. Neither the sight of desolation, nor the evidences of prosperity, can either pain or please it. It bloweth in every direction, as bidden by its Creator. So should be every one that claimeth to be a lover of the one true God. It behoveth him to fix his gaze upon the fundamentals of His Faith, and to labor diligently for its propagation. Wholly for the sake of God he should proclaim His Message, and with that same spirit accept whatever response his words may evoke in his hearer. He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339​

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You do not know WHY I am doing WHAT I am doing. Only I know that, and God knows that.

Ah - your absurd argument again about how it’s supposedly impossible to infer intent from actions.

You yourself said that you do what you do in order for there to be more Baha’is.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah - your absurd argument again about how it’s supposedly impossible to infer intent from actions.

It is absolutely impossible to know anyone's intent but your own, unless you can read minds. The same action can be done for many different reasons. Not everyone who shares their religion has the same intent. This is illogical right out the door because it is saying all people are alike and all people do the same thing for the same reasons.

You cannot know anyone's intentions but your own, unless they tell you their intentions. It is epitome of arrogance to insist that you know someone else's intentions better than they know them. I was in therapy for over 15 years and not once did any therapist tell me what my intentions were. They asked what they were and they believed me when I answered. It would be considered unethical if a therapist told a client what his intentions were because that is a gross boundary violation. It is also completely disrespectful.

You yourself said that you do what you do in order for there to be more Baha’is.

I never said that I do what I do in order for there to be more Baha’is...
I said that if more Baha'is shared the Baha'i Faith there would be more Baha'is.
That is not the same as me saying that my intent in sharing is to make more Baha'is.
That is twisting my words and creating a straw man.

Why can't you just let it go and stop speaking for me and what my intent is? I explained why I do what I do more than once. If you continue to contradict me, I will just keep posting what I posted, over and over again.

Baha'u'llah said that we should proclaim His Message wholly for the sake of God. That is what I do. It is not my responsibility if someone chooses to become a Baha'i or not, and I never even think about it.

“Be unrestrained as the wind, while carrying the Message of Him Who hath caused the Dawn of Divine Guidance to break. Consider, how the wind, faithful to that which God hath ordained, bloweth upon all the regions of the earth, be they inhabited or desolate. Neither the sight of desolation, nor the evidences of prosperity, can either pain or please it. It bloweth in every direction, as bidden by its Creator. So should be every one that claimeth to be a lover of the one true God. It behoveth him to fix his gaze upon the fundamentals of His Faith, and to labor diligently for its propagation. Wholly for the sake of God he should proclaim His Message, and with that same spirit accept whatever response his words may evoke in his hearer. He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
​

Let me tell you one last thing. My duty is only to God. I do what I do because God enjoined me to do it through Baha'u'llah. I would never go through all the hell I go through in these forums for any other reason. I do not expect you to understand that since you do not believe in God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why can't you just let it go and stop speaking for me and what my intent is? I explained why I do what I do more than once. If you continue to contradict me, I will just keep posting what I posted, over and over again.

I thought it was you who wasn’t letting it go. You keep on asking me questions, and then I respond.

I’ve *watched* you proselytize, so you aren’t going to be able to convince me that you never did it. All your protestations and excuses are doing is convincing me that you aren’t being honest about your proselytizing.

If you don’t want me to think you’re proselytizing, there’s and easy way to make that happen: don’t proselytize.

Baha'u'llah said that we shouldproclaim His Message wholly for the sake of God. That is what I do. It is not my responsibility if someone chooses to become a Baha'i or not, and I never even think about it.

Someone who sows seeds is still a farmer and is still trying to grow crops, even if he doesn’t concern himself with whether any particular seed sprouted.

 

[Jim]

@9-10ths_Penguin I still say that she isn't consciously trying to fool anyone. It looks more to me like "Never let the right hand know what the left is doing."

 

[Trailblazer]

I’ve *watched* you proselytize, so you aren’t going to be able to convince me that you never did it. All your protestations and excuses are doing is convincing me that you aren’t being honest about your proselytizing.

If you don’t want me to think you’re proselytizing, there’s and easy way to make that happen: don’t proselytize.

You have not watched any such thing because you cannot SEE into my mind.

proselytize: convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. https://www.google.com

I am not attempting to convert anyone to the Baha'i Faith so I am not proselytizing.
It is as simple as that. You cannot know what I am attempting to do because you cannot read my mind.

I do not care if I convince you of anything. Like everyone else, you alone are responsible for your thoughts.
However, I will not have you misrepresenting me on a public forum. That is the only reason I respond.

Someone who sows seeds is still a farmer and is still trying to grow crops, even if he doesn’t concern himself with whether any particular seed sprouted.

But I am not trying to grow any Baha'is. I could not care less if people become Baha'is. I get absolutely no reward from God if people become Baha'is. It is totally their choice and I have nothing to do with it. The only duty I have is to proclaim that Baha'u'llah has come and teach if they ask questions. That's it. I have no other duties given to me by Baha'u'llah.

 

[Jim]

@Trailblazer I don't think that you're consciously trying to fool anyone, but arguing about it with 9-10ths_Penguin might be a waste of your time and energy that could be better spent proselytizing teaching and sharing the Faith, with no other thought or purpose in mind but your duty to God. It looks to me like 9-10ths Penguin is just poking at you, to watch you hop around, and it will never stop until one or the other of you gets bored with it.

 

[Milton Platt]

Sometimes there are wide divergences between Baha'is in our interpretations of Baha'i scriptures. Some examples are in relation to homosexuality and gay marriage, the ineligibility of women for election to our supreme council, the nature and scope of that council's authority, the future role of the Baha'i Faith and its institutions in society, and even the divinity and infallibility of Baha'u'llah and the reality or existence of G_d. In my reading of Baha'i scriptures, no person or institution today has any authority to say that any of those interpretations are right or wrong, but that's only my personal opinion. There might be Baha'is who disagree with that. On the other hand, I don't see anyone, including the Universal House of Justice, claiming to have that authority.

Does any of that have any significance for anyone else but Baha'is? I see other people besides Baha'is discussing the Baha'i Faith. Does that divergence in Baha'i interpretations of Baha'i scriptures, and the absence of any Baha'i or Baha'i institution claiming that their interpretations have any authority, make any difference to anyone besides Baha'is, in how you think about the Baha'i Faith?

No, it demonstrates that it is no different from all the others in that regard.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer I don't think that you're consciously trying to fool anyone, but arguing about it with 9-10ths_Penguin might be a waste of your time and energy that could be better spent proselytizing teaching and sharing the Faith, with no other thought or purpose in mind but your duty to God. It looks to me like 9-10ths Penguin is just poking at you, to watch you hop around, and it will never stop until one or the other of you gets bored with it.

Thanks, good observation Jim.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It looks to me like 9-10ths Penguin is just poking at you, to watch you hop around, and it will never stop until one or the other of you gets bored with it.

It's more that I have a problem with dishonesty.

Thanks, good observation Jim.

I notice a distinct lack of "no, no, no! We can't know what Penguin is trying to do! Only God can see into his mind!"

 

[Trailblazer]

It's more that I have a problem with dishonesty.

You have a nerve calling other people dishonest. That is SO disrespectful. Why don't you just stop speaking for other people and their motives? You do not know anyone's motives. Do I speak for your motives? No, I would never do that.

I notice a distinct lack of "no, no, no! We can't know what Penguin is trying to do! Only God can see into his mind!"

That is true. I cannot know what Penguin is trying to do, and that is why I never said I knew. All I ever said is to stop speaking for ME as if you know my motives.
I agreed with Jim it was that this is a waste of time and energy, not that I know your motives. Only you know your motives and God knows your motives because God knows everything.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You have a nerve calling other people dishonest. That is SO disrespectful.

I realize that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I realize that.

Good.

 

[Jim]

I notice a distinct lack of "no, no, no! We can't know what Penguin is trying to do! Only God can see into his mind!"

You might need to go back through your logic, step by step, and maybe check your premises too. Or else, maybe you have the same problem siti has, of not being able to distinguish one Baha’i from another.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You might need to go back through your logic, step by step, and maybe check your premises too. Or else, maybe you have the same problem siti has, of not being able to distinguish one Baha’i from another.

I was talking about @Trailblazer: when you made inferences about the reasons for someone else's behaviour, her response ("good observation") was out of character compared to her many posts saying - often will all-caps, bolding, and attention-getting colours) that we should never, ever, under any circumstances try to infer the intent behind another person's actions. I found it very hypocritical of her.

 

[Jim]

I was talking about @Trailblazer: when you made inferences about the reasons for someone else's behaviour, her response ("good observation") was out of character compared to her many posts saying - often will all-caps, bolding, and attention-getting colours) that we should never, ever, under any circumstances try to infer the intent behind another person's actions. I found it very hypocritical of her.

Yes, I know what you were thinking. Try again. I’ll give you two more chances to get it right, before I explain it to you. Trailblazer isn’t always as dumb as she looks. Like Columbo.

 

[Jim]

@9-10ths_Penguin Oops! Maybe I didn’t know what you were thinking after all.

ETA: I fold.

“You got to know when to hold up, know when to fold up, know when to walk away, know when to run.”

 

[paarsurrey]

I can not answer that question - Here is a list of the Works by Baha'u'llauh - Writings of Bahá’u’lláh - Bahaikipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

Regards Tony

Has one read all of Bahaullah's "over 100 volumes of Writings."? Please.

Regards