Do God the Father and God the Son have physical bodies?

[ἀλήθεια]

Ed, this may be helpful to you:

In the scriptures, the word "heaven" is used in two basic ways. First, it refers to the place where God lives, which is the ultimate home of the faithful (see Mosiah 2:41). Second, it refers to the expanse around the earth (see Genesis 1:1).
Gospel Topics, lds.org

The Celestial Kingdom is the highest and most glorious of the degrees of glory and is symbolically represented by the sun. It is this kingdom where God Himself reigns.
Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

The celestial kingdom is part of heaven according to LDS teaching and eventually this earth will receive its celestial glory:

"It is not the fault of the earth that wickedness prevails upon her face, for she has been true to the law which she received and that law is the celestial law. Therefore the Lord says that the earth shall be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they-the celestial beings-sanctified. It is very strange that members of the Church should fail to understand the plain meaning of this revelation. The Lord did not say this earth shall be one-third celestial, and one-third terrestrial, and one-third telestial, but that the earth was made and created to become a celestial body upon whose face the meek and the poor, who have received their part in the celestial kingdom, shall find their eternal abode. God himself shall make his abode upon it. Moreover, the revelation is very clear in the statement that all who cannot abide the celestial law, or the law of the Gospel, must abide another kingdom. They will have to be transplanted to some other sphere which, without doubt, has been given the law of a terrestrial kingdom, or of a telestial kingdom, in anticipation of a place where bodies who are of the terrestrial spirit or telestial spirit may find their eternal abode." (Church History and Modern Revelation. Joseph Fielding Smith. 2 vols., Salt Lake City: 1953, 1:367)

"This earth will become a celestial kingdom when it is sanctified. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have to go to some other sphere which will be prepared for them. Those who enter the telestial kingdom, likewise will have to go to some earth which is prepared for them, and there will be another place which is hell where the devil and those who are punished to go with him will dwell." (Answers to Gospel Questions, 2:208-10)

This earth will become a celestial kingdom when it is sanctified. But wherever Heavenly Father resides has to be a celestial kingdom because it is governed by celestial law.

 

[Watchmen]

Semantics.

 

[Katzpur]

If you could give me the specific references for these quotes, that would be great. Not that I don't agree with them.

I'll see what I can do, Jordan. The document I took them from was a copy of something I've had for a long time. It didn't contain the references, but I know I had them at one time.

When the early Fathers talked about deification they do not mean that we would become 'gods' in the sense that God is God.

What sense do you believe they were referring to?

Nor did they believe that God was ever anything other than what he is from eternity. Thus, I was primarily wondering where the LDS get the doctrine of God's progression from.

I'm going to have to get back to you on this one, Jordan. My time tonight it really limited, and your question merits a more carefully thought-out answer than I have time to give you tonight.

When human beings are divinized, it means they are brought into participation of the Divine Nature. It means our human nature is lifted up and brought into God, because God's nature has already descended and made its dwelling in man.

I would agree with that, and I think most Latter-day Saints would, too.

But it will always be His nature that we are participating in- that is to say we will always be contingent on him, and in that sense never really 'gods'.

I agree that we will always be contingent on Him. We will always worship Him. He will always be our God. We will attain nothing that it is not His will that we attain, and whatever part of divinity we do attain, it will be by His grace.

 

[Scott C.]

Katz ~

can you prove it with Matthew-Revelation? i'm saying this beacause there are many, many documents out there dating from early Chrsiandom describing beliefs that were held, yet not, from the Gospel accounts, Christ-taught.

i would not be surprised if some early Christianities taught many LDS beliefs. such as the pre-existence of souls, the exisence of a mother goddess or divine female principal, the brotherhood of Jesus and Satan, etc. many groups did teach these things, and as can be evidenced from the NT itself, some these ideas were already being held and taught as the NT letters were being written.

but are these teachings originally Christ-derived? do the Gospel accounts, recorded by eye-witnesses, and by disciples, and penned in the earliest decades of Christiandom, support them, or better yet, put them clearly in the mouth of Christ?

if these LDS teachings are found in the Gospels, is it through looking here and there at isolated quotes, or bringing one's own beliefs / hopes into the reading of the text? are these conclusions that a Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Quaker Christian reading the same text would readily see without help?

Hi Ayani, you asked Katz, but I wanted to give you my thoughts on your questions also.

If someone, who knew nothing of Christianity from any denomination or previous teachings, were to study the Bible day in and day out, without commentary and without discussing ideas with others, I'm not sure what conclusions they would draw on the physical and spiritual nature of God, the nature of man, our relationship to God or the nature of the Godhead.

I don't think they would come up with the Trinity, as defined by traditional Christianity. I think it would be far more likely they would see the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as separate Beings. But, I can't be certain.

I also don't know how they would picture God the Father after unbiased study of the Bible alone. I suspect they would picture Him as a Being with some type of form. I don't know that they would come away with a clear picture that God the Father is physical with flesh and bone. I don't know that God would expect them to have that clear of a picture simply from reading the Bible. But, if they later got access to more revelations that teach of God's physical nature, I think they would believe them, based on their study of the Bible and the additional information.

This is precisely the reason I believe that God did not intend that the Bible would be the only authoritative source of information on the things of God. The Bible needs further clarification and revelation for us to understand all that God wants us to know. The Bible can simply be interpreted too many ways by sincere people who are seeking guidance from the Holy Spirit.

I believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate and physical Beings because I believe that Joseph Smith saw them as such and God directed Joseph to teach their true nature to the world. I and others in this thread have pointed out some of the Bible scriptures that point to these truths. But, others have interpreted the same scriptures differently. I see that some scriptures that I take literally, others take figuratively. Similarly, some scriptures that I take figuratively, others take literally.

For example, to me, Stephen seeing the Father and the Son is literal. Seeing them as two Beings is literal. But, when Jesus said that if we "see Him", then we also "see the Father", he was being figurative to emphasize that the two are united. We should not conclude that the Father and the Son are literally the same person. Also, when God says that He is invisible, that does not literally mean that he cannot show himself to anybody or that He has no form that is possible to see.

I believe that the scriptures of the restoration have clarified important points that the Bible does indeed teach, but that are not generally understood. If the calling of a modern day prophet, Joseph Smith, and the restoration did not cause some fairly radical shifts in the way some people traditionally read and interpret the Bible, and if they did not challenge some of the most educated theologians, then they would not have been necessary. Prophets, throughout history, ignore the traditional teachings and interpretations of their day and teach that which is revealed directly to them from heaven. They also teach with authority and without fear. They teach from a position of complete certainty. Often, they become quite unpopular.

I believe that the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, the Doctrine and Covenants, the living prophets and apostles and the authority of Christ's church endowed with Christ's priesthood are all necessary to give the full picture of what God has revealed to mankind.

Again, one of the most sacred and simple and important truths to come out of this restoration is that we are God's children, made in His likeness and image. God clarified this by the simple act of appearing with His Son to a fourteen year old farm boy. He didn't go through the religious scholars or theologians. He just went straight to a farm boy and said in effect, "Here We are. This is who We are. This is what We are."

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Yes, certainly, theosis is an ancient Christian doctrine, though I would say it is truly part and parcel of the Nicene/ Chalcedonian definition. One of it's greatest (early) proponents, Athanasius, rightfully sees deification as the consequence of "homoousia".

If you could give me the specific references for these quotes, that would be great. Not that I don't agree with them.

When the early Fathers talked about deification they do not mean that we would become 'gods' in the sense that God is God. Nor did they believe that God was ever anything other than what he is from eternity. Thus, I was primarily wondering where the LDS get the doctrine of God's progression from.

When human beings are divinized, it means they are brought into participation of the Divine Nature. It means our human nature is lifted up and brought into God, because God's nature has already descended and made its dwelling in man.

But it will always be His nature that we are participating in- that is to say we will always be contingent on him, and in that sense never really 'gods'.

I had some difficulty understanding theosis until I ran across this:

The statement by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, "The Son of God became man, that we might become God", indicates the concept beautifully. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become " . . . partakers of divine nature." Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is "becoming by grace what God is by nature" (De Incarnatione, I). What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis - it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god.
Theosis - OrthodoxWiki

 

[Katzpur]

it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god.

With God, all things are possible.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

With God, all things are possible.

With all due respect, God is not a liar.

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.
(Numbers 23:19)

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. (Isaiah 43:10)

 

[Watchmen]

That's right. Not God. But gods.

 

[Katzpur]

With all due respect, God is not a liar.

You imply that I have called God a liar and do this "with all due respect"?

 

[edward]

God is in Heaven, which is near Kolob - wherever that is. His residence is not the Celestial Kingdom. The Celestial Kingdom doesn't even exist yet. This earth will be transformed into the Celestial Kingdom when the time comes.

Interesting. In the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, Brigham Young said "
Where God and Christ dwell, that is a kingdom of itself—the celestial kingdom (DBY, 388)."
Are you saying that Brigham Young was wrong and the previous poster (I can't remember her name) was wrong, but you don't know what is right. I'm sorry, but this is confusing. Where does God dwell, according to LDS theology?

 

[edward]

With God, all things are possible.

Can God make a square circle?

 

[DeepShadow]

With all due respect, God is not a liar.

Yes, that's right. Which means that deification must be possible, or else, "with God all things are possible" is a lie.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

As Aletheia highlighted, the ancient doctrine, at any rate, uses that term theosis in a particular sense. What is meant that we will become 'gods'? Only that, by grace, we will participate in God's nature. That we are being offered a state that is beyond the natural dignity of our nature- it is truly humbling.

At any rate, it does not mean we will in any sense become equal to God or any of the persons of the Godhead.

 

[Watchmen]

At any rate, it does not mean we will in any sense become equal to God or any of the persons of the Godhead.

And LDS teaching does not claim this either.

 

[Watchmen]

Interesting. In the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, Brigham Young said "
Where God and Christ dwell, that is a kingdom of itself—the celestial kingdom (DBY, 388)."
Are you saying that Brigham Young was wrong and the previous poster (I can't remember her name) was wrong, but you don't know what is right. I'm sorry, but this is confusing. Where does God dwell, according to LDS theology?

I already answered, "near Kolob."

There is only a couple verses in our canon (Abraham chapter 3 and 5) that mentions this.

 

[edward]

I already answered, "near Kolob."

You said that he DID NOT reside in the celestial kingdom

God is in Heaven, which is near Kolob - wherever that is. His residence is not the Celestial Kingdom. The Celestial Kingdom doesn't even exist yet. This earth will be transformed into the Celestial Kingdom when the time comes ...

Brigham Young stated that God and Jesus do live in the Celestial Kingdom. It appears that what we have here is a conundrum. Who should I believe?

I am NOT trying to be difficult, Watchmen. I am trying to discover what the LDS people believe as offical doctrine.

Thank you for your time.

Edward

 

[Scott C.]

You said that he DID NOT reside in the celestial kingdom

Brigham Young stated that God and Jesus do live in the Celestial Kingdom. It appears that what we have here is a conundrum. Who should I believe?

I am NOT trying to be difficult, Watchmen. I am trying to discover what the LDS people believe as offical doctrine.

Thank you for your time.

Edward

It's not clear where God lives. It's also not clear what it means to "live somewhere" when you're the Omnipotent God. God lives in the greatest glory, so it makes sense to say that God lives a celestial life or in a/the Celestial Kingdom. Some day this earth will become celestialized, after the Second Coming and the Millenium. But, the earth is not yet celestialized so it is not the Celestial Kingdom and it is not a Celestial Kingdom.

 

[edward]

It's not clear where God lives. It's also not clear what it means to "live somewhere" when you're the Omnipotent God. God lives in the greatest glory, so it makes sense to say that God lives a celestial life or in a/the Celestial Kingdom. Some day this earth will become celestialized, after the Second Coming and the Millenium. But, the earth is not yet celestialized so it is not the Celestial Kingdom and it is not a Celestial Kingdom.

Thanks, Scott. The issue, as I see it, is not where God lives, but that whenever ἀλήθεια posts a comment, this gentleman comes up with a very authoritative and brief "Wrong" or "Semantics" statement without any elaboration. This not conducive to any public dialogue and gives off an atmosphere of arrogance or hostility. This, of course, is only my opinion. I am enjoying other aspects of this site.

Have a nice week-end and thanks for responding to me. I have been trying to respond to a message that you wrote to me earlier, but have lost it three times this AM. I think I shall wait and try later.

Edward

 

[herushura]

Yes, God the Son is the Morning Sun and the sun after dec-25, and god the father is the mature sun at noon or after july-21.

The holyspirit is the dying sun at the end of autumn and at sunset.

The Sun-God-Son as one physical body called "Sol"

 

[ἀλήθεια]

At any rate, it does not mean we will in any sense become equal to God or any of the persons of the Godhead.

It is interesting that LDS prophet Lorenzo Snow received a revelation about godhood:

"The Patriarch was the father of Joseph, the Prophet. That was the first time Lorenzo had met him. After the services, they were introduced, and Father Smith said to my brother that he would soon be convinced of the truth of the latter-day work, and be baptized; and he said: ‘You will become as great as you can possibly wish—EVEN AS GREAT AS GOD, and you cannot wish to be greater.’ " (Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, Salt Lake City: Deseret News Co., 1884, pp. 9–10.)

And Joseph Smith taught:

"And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves--to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done--by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." - Joseph Smith as cited in The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346-347


"The mind or intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself." - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, , p.353

Then there is the LDS priesthood manual from 1984 in which the following was taught and I would like to add that this manual contains no disclaimer as to these quotes being merely speculation:

How does it help us to know that the basic elements of God’s life in a mortal world were the same as ours? President Brigham Young explained:

"He is our Father—the Father of our Spirits—and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are....

"...There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through....

"It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been a finite being" (Deseret News, 16 Nov. 1859, p. 290).

(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 153)

The same manual states:

What evidence do we have that God does not jealously guard his position and power, but rather seeks to see that his children rise up to his position of glory, knowledge, and power that he has obtained (see Moses 1:39)?
(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 155)


ἀλήθεια