Do God the Father and God the Son have physical bodies?

[Scott C.]

So you believe that God is actually standing in the sky, or that heaven is above us?

Everything I am about to say is 100% my personal speculation and should not be construed as LDS doctrine.

While I believe God to be a physical Being, I think it's a mistake to think of His existence as Being subject to the physical universe as we currently understand that universe.

For example, I don't picture God living somewhere "up there", where if I had infinite time and a really fast vehicle and knew what direction to head, that I could eventually arrive at the place where God "lives". Rather, I think of God as living in another dimension. God could be right next to me right now, but unseen and unfelt, because we're blocked by "the veil" which separates us.

I believe that in God's eternity, what we think of time, space, distance, and travel may be completely turned upside down. I have heard LDS Church leaders say that God is a physical Being and therefore cannot be in more than one place at one time. This is in opposition to the traditional Christian view that God has no form and is therefore everywhere present at all times.

In my humble and personal opinion, which may or may not be correct, I don't necessarily think that the physical nature of God prevents Him from being in more than one place at one time, at least not as we perceive it. Do we know what "place" and "time" mean? Do we know what is the difference between "one" place and another "place"? We differentiate places based on distance between. Do we know what "distance" really means? Certainly in our physical world and as we understand Physics, a physical object can only be in one place at one time. But, does that apply to God's physical eternity?

How long does it take God to travel a mile? I would submit that it takes no time. because if you assign a finite time required, then we could say why not go in 1/2 the time? And again, why not 1/2 the time, and so on forever. Since God is omnipotent, there is no finite time that would limit how fast he can go from one point to another, no matter how distant. So, I conclude he can do it with 0 time elapsed. Now if you can travel from one point to another in 0 time, why not be able to be in more than one place at the same time?

Suppose there are multiple dimensions. Suppose point A in Dimension 1 maps to point Q in dimension 2 and also maps to point Z in Dimension 2. Suppose also that points Q and Z are separted by a great distance relative to and within dimension 2. If God is now at point A in Dimension 1, then he is also simultaneously at point Q and Z in dimension 2. Those in dimension 2 observe that the physical God was in two places at the same time. But, in God's dimension he was only at one place at one time.

When I think of it this way, I put no limits on God due to form and physical Being. God is the Master of eternity, whatever that includes in terms of dimensions, travel, time, space, etc. I think whatever God can do is perfectly logical to him and there is nothing "magic" about it. It's all natural.

All of those attributes that traditional Christians believe are only possible if God has no substance or essence, are actually maintained by a physical God. Also, we get the benefit of a God with form who we can relate to and see we are like Him. We should not and must not limit God because we know Him to be physical.

This is all mysterious and I imagine mortal minds don't have the capacity to really understand what is going on here when we speak of God being "up there" or "moving about". I may be wrong about my speculations, but this is how I think about it.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

It's not clear where God lives. It's also not clear what it means to "live somewhere" when you're the Omnipotent God. God lives in the greatest glory, so it makes sense to say that God lives a celestial life or in a/the Celestial Kingdom. Some day this earth will become celestialized, after the Second Coming and the Millenium. But, the earth is not yet celestialized so it is not the Celestial Kingdom and it is not a Celestial Kingdom.

Are you suggesting that no one knows if God and Christ are in a celestial kingdom? If that is what you are saying, why does your church state that they do live in the celestial kingdom?

In the Book of Abraham, there is a facsimile no. 2 in the third chapter that says:


EXPLANATION

Fig. 1. Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God.

Why would God, according to LDS teaching, not reside in a celestial kingdom? Do you suppose he lives in a lower or higher kingdom?

The exact location of the celestial kingdom makes no difference at this time. However, according to your scripture, there is a location.
​

 

[Katzpur]

As Aletheia highlighted, the ancient doctrine, at any rate, uses that term theosis in a particular sense. What is meant that we will become 'gods'? Only that, by grace, we will participate in God's nature. That we are being offered a state that is beyond the natural dignity of our nature- it is truly humbling.

It's very humbling and at the same time uplifting.

At any rate, it does not mean we will in any sense become equal to God or any of the persons of the Godhead.

I hope none of us have given you the impression that we believe there will come a time when we are no longer subservient to God or to any of the persons of the Godhead. We will always look to God as the "Most High," as the "Almighty," as our Father and our God. We will never be Him or equal to Him in power and authority.

 

[Scott C.]

Are you suggesting that no one knows if God and Christ are in a celestial kingdom? If that is what you are saying, why does your church state that they do live in the celestial kingdom?

In the Book of Abraham, there is a facsimile no. 2 in the third chapter that says:


EXPLANATION

Fig. 1. Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God.

Why would God, according to LDS teaching, not reside in a celestial kingdom? Do you suppose he lives in a lower or higher kingdom?

The exact location of the celestial kingdom makes no difference at this time. However, according to your scripture, there is a location.
​

I agree God lives in The or A Celestial Kingdom. I don't know where it is. I don't know what it means to live there either.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

It's very humbling and at the same time uplifting.

I hope none of us have given you the impression that we believe there will come a time when we are no longer subservient to God or to any of the persons of the Godhead. We will always look to God as the "Most High," as the "Almighty," as our Father and our God. We will never be Him or equal to Him in power and authority.

How does a person who has all power have less power than God?

The Doctrine and Covenants says:

20Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (D&C 132:20)


What evidence do we have that God does not jealously guard his position and power, but rather seeks to see that his children rise up to his position of glory, knowledge, and power that he has obtained (see Moses 1:39)?
(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 155)

 

[DeepShadow]

How does a person who has all power have less power than God?

Yet another example of how man's limited language fails to fully anticipate the divine. Religion is mystery; reification is a tool of the devil.

 

[DeepShadow]

Brigham Young stated that God and Jesus do live in the Celestial Kingdom. It appears that what we have here is a conundrum.

Please forgive me, I'm late to the game on this one. Where's the conundrum?

 

[edward]

Please forgive me, I'm late to the game on this one. Where's the conundrum?

Consider yourself forgiven.

In post 199, Watchmen said, "God is in Heaven, which is near Kolob - wherever that is. His residence is not the Celestial Kingdom. The Celestial Kingdom doesn't even exist yet. This earth will be transformed into the Celestial Kingdom when the time comes.

However, Brigham Young said, "Where God and Christ dwell, that is a kingdom of itself—the celestial kingdom (DBY, 388)."

Reading posts from others, it appears that no one really knows, albeit, there is speculation about the dwelling place of God. That, according to Webster, is a conundrum. "A question or problem having only a conjectural answer."

 

[DeepShadow]

Yeah, I guess time vs. infinity is another area where language breaks down. My conjecture is that the celestial kingdom can refer to the presence of God or the eventual kingdom that that presence will create on earth, kinda like how the Kingdom of God is referred to in the Bible as being something that's already here, or something to come.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Katzpur

I hope none of us have given you the impression that we believe there will come a time when we are no longer subservient to God or to any of the persons of the Godhead. We will always look to God as the "Most High," as the "Almighty," as our Father and our God. We will never be Him or equal to Him in power and authority.

Thanks Katzpur for clarifying, I was not quite sure.

It's very humbling and at the same time uplifting.

It makes me think of one of my favorite Psalms:

When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

I think it was Chesterton who lauded Christianity for regarding humankind, at the same time, as the most pitiful of creatures and yet the most blessed and exalted. We are simultaneously totally humbled and exalted by God. Apart from him the two are let loose from one another- we are driven either to despair over our worthlessness or lack of meaning, or we become inflated with earthly pride and imagine we can do all things, bringing disaster upon us.

This is what makes theosis fundamentally different from pagan or even many other versions of divinization.

 

[Truthsayer]

It is my belief that the universe itself is the physical body of God, and that physics in all of its forms, including quantum physics and metaphysics is but the study of the anatomy of God.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

This question remains unanswered:

How does a person who has all power have less power than God?

LDS scripture claims that some men shall have all power. Even the angels will be subject to these men who become gods:

Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (D&C 132:20)


What evidence do we have that God does not jealously guard his position and power, but rather seeks to see that his children rise up to his position of glory, knowledge, and power that he has obtained (see Moses 1:39)?
(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 155)

 

[DeepShadow]

This question remains unanswered:

What was wrong with the answer I gave in the very next post?!

Religion is full of paradoxes, and the more we try to twist language to grasp them, the more language falls apart. The scriptures say Christ inherited all the Father hath, and also that we are joint heirs. It's a paradox.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Though surely the LDS can not take this statement at face-vale- that we will literally have all power or that our inheritance in Christ means we are elevated to equal status to him?

Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (D&C 132:20)

I think what makes us nervous here is that "they shall be from everlasting to everlasting"- which, if I am not mistaken, are words taken from the Psalmist's praise to the Father.

 

[DeepShadow]

I dunno; Romans 18:7 says we're joint heirs with Christ. Do you take that statement at face value?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Heirs with Christ means we will share in his inheritance. But our sonship is qualitatively different from his. He was glorified with the Father before the world began; Son and Word in the beginning. He is "very God of very God", the "Only Begotten at the Father's heart".

We are always part of creation. Christ is forever the bond and mediator between us and the Father and so remains always above us, beyond us, even as he abides in us.

 

[Watchmen]

Heirs with Christ means we will share in his inheritance. But our sonship is qualitatively different from his. He was glorified with the Father before the world began; Son and Word in the beginning. He is "very God of very God", the "Only Begotten at the Father's heart".

We are always part of creation. Christ is forever the bond and mediator between us and the Father and so remains always above us, beyond us, even as he abides in us.

Ditto.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Though surely the LDS can not take this statement at face-vale- that we will literally have all power or that our inheritance in Christ means we are elevated to equal status to him?



I think what makes us nervous here is that "they shall be from everlasting to everlasting"- which, if I am not mistaken, are words taken from the Psalmist's praise to the Father.

The reason LDS teach that men, like God, are from everlasting to everlasting is that they do not accept the doctrine of creation ex nihilio. Rather, it is taught that the matter from which men were organized is co-eternal with God.


Doctrine & Covenants 93:29-30 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 3: 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself. - Joseph Smith (History of The Church, Vol. 6, p. 311)

Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 4:1
And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

 

[Watchmen]

And yet that has nothing to do with our subservient relationship to God. He is our Master - now and forever.

 

[Katzpur]

ἀλήθεια, are you by any chance an ex-Mormon? Your posts are not at all typical of most non-Mormons' posts. You quote different sources and ask different questions, and are, in general, fairly knowledgable on Mormonism. So, in spite of the fact that I see many of your questions as baiting (sorry if I'm misreading you, that's just how they strike me), I can't help but think you know more than you are letting on. If I'm wrong about that, where are you getting your information from?