Do God the Father and God the Son have physical bodies?

[soleil10]

Does God the Father has a physical body ?

I believe God is incorporeal. He is invisible. He can be as small and as large as He wants. If He was visible, everyone would want to capture Him. So it is a good thing that He is invisible.

He made us in His image, male and female so He is in our image too.
He has emotion, will and personality. We could even say, He as a mouth, eyes and ears etc...
The place He likes to be the most is in our heart.
Love was His motivation to create. Even if He has all the knowledge, the power and the ressources He wants, it take two to experience love. That is why he created us.
The creation is His physical body and we are His children.

 

[Scott C.]

Jesus clearly made the distinction that it was not flesh and blood that revealed it ,but God....indicating that God is not flesh and blood ,how can you not see that..it's so clear.

I think you missed my point. The Father is not flesh and blood. The Father is flesh and bone, not flesh and blood. Blood is mortal. There is no blood in an incorruptible immortal resurrected body.

That is what Paul meant when he said flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God and we must be changed. When we are resurrected with a physical body, it will not be a body of flesh and blood. But, it will be a body of flesh and bone. The body will be different from now, it will not be corruptible. It will not need blood or food or nutrition or other things that sustain our mortal life. Since we will be immortal, the body will be different in many ways - no blood - but it will still be physical. It will still be flesh and bone.

 

[Katzpur]

Does God the Father has a physical body ?

I believe God is incorporeal. He is invisible. He can be as small and as large as He wants. If He was visible, everyone would want to capture Him. So it is a good thing that He is invisible.

Soleil, if God is incorporeal and invisible, if He can be as large or as small as He wants, what is the difference between God the Father and the Holy Ghost? It sounds to me as if the Holy Ghost would have essentially no purpose if the Father had the attributes you believe He has.

He made us in His image, male and female so He is in our image too.

How can He be in our image if He is invisible?

He has emotion, will and personality. We could even say, He as a mouth, eyes and ears etc...
The place He likes to be the most is in our heart.
Love was His motivation to create. Even if He has all the knowledge, the power and the ressources He wants, it take two to experience love. That is why he created us.
The creation is His physical body and we are His children.

I like what you said about God's love and I agree that love was the driving force behind the Creation. I'm still confused, though, as to how God could have a mouth, eyes and ears if He was invisible. And I'm still confused as to how you see the relationship between God the Father and the Holy Ghost, because what you have described seems to me to be more a description of the Holy Ghost than it does of the Father.

 

[ayani]

Katz ~

can you prove it with Matthew-Revelation? i'm saying this beacause there are many, many documents out there dating from early Chrsiandom describing beliefs that were held, yet not, from the Gospel accounts, Christ-taught.

i would not be surprised if some early Christianities taught many LDS beliefs. such as the pre-existence of souls, the exisence of a mother goddess or divine female principal, the brotherhood of Jesus and Satan, etc. many groups did teach these things, and as can be evidenced from the NT itself, some these ideas were already being held and taught as the NT letters were being written.

but are these teachings originally Christ-derived? do the Gospel accounts, recorded by eye-witnesses, and by disciples, and penned in the earliest decades of Christiandom, support them, or better yet, put them clearly in the mouth of Christ?

if these LDS teachings are found in the Gospels, is it through looking here and there at isolated quotes, or bringing one's own beliefs / hopes into the reading of the text? are these conclusions that a Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Quaker Christian reading the same text would readily see without help?

 

[soleil10]

Soleil, if God is incorporeal and invisible, if He can be as large or as small as He wants, what is the difference between God the Father and the Holy Ghost? It sounds to me as if the Holy Ghost would have essentially no purpose if the Father had the attributes you believe He has.

Katzpur, I probably have a different understanding of what the Holy spirit is. I do not call it the Holy Ghost .It scares me. (just joking)
Before I explain what I mean by the Holy Spirit, let me respond to the rest of your comments.

How can He be in our image if He is invisible?

We have a physical body and a spiritual body. We have 5 physical senses and 5 spiritual senses. We live in 2 worlds. Your spiritual body is invisible to human eyes

I like what you said about God's love and I agree that love was the driving force behind the Creation. I'm still confused, though, as to how God could have a mouth, eyes and ears if He was invisible.

It is a figure of speech. God speaks to you. He can hear you and see you.

And I'm still confused as to how you see the relationship between God the Father and the Holy Ghost, because what you have described seems to me to be more a description of the Holy Ghost than it does of the Father.

OK, here is what I believe. God created us in His image (male and female).

He created Adam and Eve (male and female). If Adam and Eve had grown to perfection without falling and had become one (God's image), with God as their center, they would have created the first Trinity on earth.

Since Adam and Eve fell, that original trinity failed. God sent Jesus as a second Adam as our new sinless ancestor.
Since, he was rejected, could not marry and was killed, Christianity explains the trinity as a spiritual trinity being God, Jesus (masculine spirit) and the Holy spirit (a comforting spirit, a female spirit).

We are reborn spiritually through Jesus and the Holy spirit.

So for me the Holy Spirit is the feminine side of God that would have been represented on earth by unfallen Eve.

I lool at it this way. Let's take the example of the color purple. Purple is one color but blue is part of purple and red too.

You may have a different explanation of the Holy spirit or Holy Ghost.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The LDS Holy Ghost is invisible but has a mouth, eyes and ears.

...the Prophet Joseph Smith explained that the Holy Ghost is a personage having the form of a man and that the dove is merely an outward symbol or sign of the Holy Ghost. The Prophet Joseph said that the Holy Ghost descended upon Christ at the time of his baptism “in the form of a dove, or rather in the sign of the dove, in witness of that administration.” He explained:
“The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in the sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence” (History of the Church, 5:260–61).
- “Lesson 17: The Holy Ghost,” Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3, p. 63

 

[Katzpur]

Soleil, thanks for your comments.

We have a physical body and a spiritual body.

Agreed.

We have 5 physical senses and 5 spiritual senses. We live in 2 worlds. Your spiritual body is invisible to human eyes.

Do you believe that our 5 physical senses and our 5 spiritual senses are the same?

 

[Scott C.]

The LDS Holy Ghost is invisible but has a mouth, eyes and ears.

...the Prophet Joseph Smith explained that the Holy Ghost is a personage having the form of a man and that the dove is merely an outward symbol or sign of the Holy Ghost. The Prophet Joseph said that the Holy Ghost descended upon Christ at the time of his baptism “in the form of a dove, or rather in the sign of the dove, in witness of that administration.” He explained:
“The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in the sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence” (History of the Church, 5:260–61).
- “Lesson 17: The Holy Ghost,” Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3, p. 63

Exactly. The Holy Ghost is a Person, a member of the Godhead, as much a person as are the Father and the Son. But, unlike the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost does not have a physical body. The Holy Ghost has a spiritual body. Spirit bodies have form. When someone dies, their spirit body leaves their physical body until the time of the resurrection. If that spirit body were to appear to us, we would see the spirit in the form of a person.

Before any of us were born, we existed as spirits, which spirits had the form, but not the physical substance, of our physical bodies. Before Jesus Christ was born, He was also in spirit form. In the Book of Mormon, Christ appeared to a prophet before his (Christ's) birth and said:

"16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh." (Ether 3:16)

Remember, that was the Son, not the Father, that appeared. The Father had a physical body, but the Son did not. The Son appeared as a Spirit, in the form of a Man, to the Brother of Jared in the Book of Mormon. Then when Jesus was born He took upon Himself flesh and blood. Then when He was resurrected, he took upon himself an incorruptible immortal body of flesh and bone, like that of His Father.

Similar to Christ before He was born, the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit. Were we to see the Holy Spirit, we would see that we are also in His image, but we are physical, while He is not.

 

[soleil10]

Do you believe that our 5 physical senses and our 5 spiritual senses are the same?

Because of the fall our 5 spiritual senses were shut down in many ways. Our usage is limited.

Some people can hear and see spiritually. They can comunicate with people in the spirit world. I had the opportunity to met 3 different mediums in 2008. They were quite accurate.

It says in the bible that Adam was communicating with God much more easily than we do.
In conclusion I think our 5 spiritual senses are somewhat a different application of the 5 physical senses

Just imaging some delicious chocolate !! you can almost feel you are eating some of it even you do not have any in your mouth.

In our mother's womb, we live in a water environment. On earth, we breathe air.
In the spiritual world, we breathe love. 3 different environment 3 different applications of the same thing.

 

[Delamere]

God is without body, parts or passions. God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. God's nature, I believe, dwelt fully in the physical body of the Jesus Christ so that he could say "I and the Father are one".

 

[Katzpur]

God is without body, parts or passions.

So the Bible's many references to His body parts and passions are to be disregarded? May I ask you a couple of questions? When Stephen looked into Heaven and saw Jesus Christ sitting on the right hand of God, what was it he really saw?

If God has no passions, are we to assume He doesn't love us after all? Or get angry with us? Or show compassion towards us? Could you tell me why a God who doesn't feel love would allow His Only Begotten son to suffer on our behalf?

God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. God's nature, I believe, dwelt fully in the physical body of the Jesus Christ so that he could say "I and the Father are one".

What is a Spirit in your opinion?

 

[roli]

I think you missed my point. The Father is not flesh and blood. The Father is flesh and bone, not flesh and blood. Blood is mortal. There is no blood in an incorruptible immortal resurrected body.

That is what Paul meant when he said flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God and we must be changed. When we are resurrected with a physical body, it will not be a body of flesh and blood. But, it will be a body of flesh and bone. The body will be different from now, it will not be corruptible. It will not need blood or food or nutrition or other things that sustain our mortal life. Since we will be immortal, the body will be different in many ways - no blood - but it will still be physical. It will still be flesh and bone.

God no where in scripture is indicated as having flesh and bone and do assume this sort of belief only brings God down to man's level.
I guess the fact that he is mentioned in scripture as being invisible, unable to be seen by man, is of no consolation.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The right hand of a king indicates a position of authority, hence the phrase "my right hand man."

Stephen could not have actually seen God the Father, let alone that God had a hand:

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)

 

[roli]

So the Bible's many references to His body parts and passions are to be disregarded? May I ask you a couple of questions? When Stephen looked into Heaven and saw Jesus Christ sitting on the right hand of God, what was it he really saw?

If God has no passions, are we to assume He doesn't love us after all? Or get angry with us? Or show compassion towards us? Could you tell me why a God who doesn't feel love would allow His Only Begotten son to suffer on our behalf?

What is a Spirit in your opinion?

I think you error in trying to grasp with your finite mind the whole concept of God.
Could it have been the glory, the radiance and brilliance of his majestic splendor.
It certainly does'nt conclude God has flrsh and bone.

He is mentioned as having wings,does that make him a bird, being a tower and pillar, is he a building or inanimate object, a fire, does he burn.

I think the best we can do as finite beings in describing God, fails in comparison to what he is and what he actually looks like.

 

[Katzpur]

I think you error in trying to grasp with your finite mind the whole concept of God.

Believe me, roli, I wouldn't even think of imagining that I can grasp the whole concept of God. What I can grasp is the simplicity of what the Bible says about Him, rather than trying to base my entire understanding of Him on one verse (God is spirit) and then insisting that all of the passages which speak of Him as a man don't really mean what they say.

Could it have been the glory, the radiance and brilliance of his majestic splendor.

I don't see how. Jesus Christ was identifiable in relationship to someone on whose right hand He was sitting.

It certainly does'nt conclude God has flrsh and bone.

No, but it does conclude that He can be seen, because Stephen saw Him.

He is mentioned as having wings,does that make him a bird, being a tower and pillar, is he a building or inanimate object, a fire, does he burn.

No, His attributes are compared to the attributes of some of those things. The Bible sometimes uses symbolic, figurative language, but it's generally pretty easy to see when that's the case. In other situations, a more literal interpretation makes sense. Just as it would be a mistake to take every word in the Bible literally, it's also a mistake to try to interpret everything as symbolic or figurative, particularly when the literal meaning makes perfect sense.

I think the best we can do as finite beings in describing God, fails in comparison to what he is and what he actually looks like.

I'm sure you're right about that. I'm sure His actual appearance defies all description.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I don't see how. Jesus Christ was identifiable in relationship to someone on whose right hand He was sitting.

The problem here is that the contemporary Judaism of Jesus' time, and therefore also the Christians of this time, had already come to regard the Torah imagery of the Father enfleshed as metaphor.

Katzpur, have you ever wondered yourself why Rabbinical Judaism, both ancient and modern, also rejects the notion that God has flesh and bone? Should we also accuse the heirs of first century Judaism of having been corrupted by "Hellenization" ?

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur, have you ever wondered yourself why Rabbinical Judaism, both ancient and modern, also rejects the notion that God has flesh and bone? Should we also accuse the heirs of first century Judaism of having been corrupted by "Hellenization" ?

I will try to find some evidence (I know there is some) that ancient Judaism did see God as anthropomorphic. Give me a little bit of time to do the research and I'll get back to you.

 

[soleil10]

If God has no passions, are we to assume He doesn't love us after all? Or get angry with us? Or show compassion towards us? Could you tell me why a God who doesn't feel love would allow His Only Begotten son to suffer on our behalf?

God is a personal God, with intelect, emotions and will.
What this personal God wants most is love. He created human beings as His partners in love. That is amazing.

No one can experience love alone. It takes two to experience love. It is the same for God even if He has all the power, all the knowledge, all the money, He cant spent eternity saying: "I love myself".

He is obedient to the law of Love

Love was the motivation for Him to create

 

[Katzpur]

God is a personal God, with intelect, emotions and will.
What this personal God wants most is love. He created human beings as His partners in love. That is amazing.

No one can experience love alone. It takes two to experience love. It is the same for God even if He has all the power, all the knowledge, all the money, He cant spent eternity saying: "I love myself".

He is obedient to the law of Love

Love was the motivation for Him to create

You're obviously using the word "passions" differently than I would. To me, lacking in passions is the same thing as lacking in emotions. If you say God has no passions, what do you mean by that?

 

[Katzpur]

I will try to find some evidence (I know there is some) that ancient Judaism did see God as anthropomorphic. Give me a little bit of time to do the research and I'll get back to you.

Okay, Jordan, I found several, but they're not online, so I can't give you a link or do a copy and paste. I'm going to have to type this out, so I'll just start with one of them. This is from the Clementine Homilies, a Jewish Christian document based on a second-century source:

And Simon said: "I should like to know, Peter, if you really believe that the shape of man has been moulded after the shape of God." And Peter said: "I am really quite certain, Simon, that this is the case... It is the shape of the just God."

For He has shape, and He has every limb primarily and solely for beauty's sake, and not for use. For He has not eyes that He may see with them; for He sees on every side, since He is imcomparably more brilliant in His body than the visual spirit which is in us, and He is more splended than everything, so that in comparison with Him the light of the sun may be reckoned as darkness. Nor has He ears that He may hear; for He hears, perceives, moves, energizes, acts on every side. But He has the most beautiful shape on account of man, that the pure in heart, may be able to see Him, that they may rejoice because they suffered. For He moulded man in His own shape as in the greadest seal, in order that he may be the ruler and lord of all, and that all may be subject to him.