Do innocent sinful people go to hell?

[loverofhumanity]

True, I agree, we don't have to judge others (including imputing wrong or bad motives to anyone) because God's judgement is already recorded for us in Scripture.

If ' biblical hell ' is Not a place, then were did the dead Jesus go the day Jesus died except to grave. - Acts 2:27
To me, ' biblical hell ' (grave) comes to a final end when everyone in the Bible's hell are resurrected out of hell because the resurrected out-of-hell Jesus now has the keys to unlock biblical hell according to Revelation 1:18.
Then, emptied-out hell is cast into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell - Revelation 20:13-14

When we die physically we live on in another world. But the greatest hell is to turn away and disbelieve in God and the greatest heaven is to believe and obey Him.

The term is relevant to our spiritual condition. You know Christ once said 'let the dead bury the dead'? These are spiritual not physical terms describing spiritual states not places.

 

[habiru]

harbiru, how do you know the *star* led them to Bethlehem ?
I may be missing something. Joseph and Mary were from: Nazareth.
They only went to visit Bethlehem to register Not move to Bethlehem.
They apparently were still in Bethlehem for the circumcision - Luke 2:21
and then they they went from Bethlehem to Jerusalem - Luke 2:22
Then Luke continues to inform us that after everything was taken care of, then they returned back home to Nazareth - Luke 2:39
So, where was the 'house' where the young child, Jesus, was found by the magi - Matthew 2:8-10 ?
Surely they did Not move to Bethlehem, so why think the magi found the house in Bethlehem ?

To me, there would have been No need to kill children around two (2) years of age if Jesus was only one year old.
That two-year time frame could have indicated much more than just ' days' of travel.
To me, also the magi's caravan could have included horses and elephants and to me, also: camels.
The caravan would have consisted of more than three persons carrying gold, etc. otherwise they could have easily been robbed, so the number of astrologers (magi) would have been an Unknown number. Just the number of gifts are known. Their gift of costly gold then was enough to make possible for Joseph, Mary and Jesus to flee to Egypt.

Bethlehem means the house of the Bread, and which He was considered as the bread that had came down from the heavens.. And which it was during the time of the Jubilee. According to that Sabbath, that everyone must return to their homeland. And which Caesar did not know that he was doing God's will. And which it has put Jesus in the place where He suppose to be born. King David was born in Bethlehem and Mary and Joseph were descendants of Jesse, David's father. But after Jesus was born, they all waited around in Bethlehem until the census was over with. But then they had to flee from Bethlehem to Egypt. But when they had came back around eleven years later, they had settle in Nazareth instead of Bethlehem, because they were worried for Jesus life. That explains why Mary was so worried about where did Jesus had disappeared to. And so they had registered themselves as being a citizen of Nazareth instead of Bethlehem. Remember, Herod did not know the exact date that the King of the Jews were going to be born. And so he just made an rough estimate. And it was a small amount of gold, just enough for them to live off of day by day, while they are in Egypt. And I guess the reason why that they has used the three wise men as one Ethiopian, Chinese and or India. Those are the countries where they uses myrrh. and so I guess that they did not know what countries that the magis were from. and so they just claimed that there were three of them, and each one of them were from one of those countries.


Matthew 2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

Matthew 221 So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there.:23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

habiru, how do you know they were in Bethlehem according to Scripture

 

[URAVIP2ME]

When we die physically we live on in another world. But the greatest hell is to turn away and disbelieve in God and the greatest heaven is to believe and obey Him.
The term is relevant to our spiritual condition. You know Christ once said 'let the dead bury the dead'? These are spiritual not physical terms describing spiritual states not places.

Wasn't Jesus speaking about just the ' spiritually dead ' ones .

To me, a living dead person would Not need a resurrection.
Only the truly dead need a resurrection.
Jesus only resurrected truly dead people.
Jesus never taught alive at death in another realm, but sleeping in death at John 11:12-14
What Jesus taught is in harmony with the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach sleep in death:
Such as at: Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

The greatest hell ( grave in Scripture ) is the temporary hell / grave until resurrection day, or Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth, when biblical hell ( the grave ) will be No more -Revelation 20:13-14

 

[habiru]

habiru, how do you know they were in Bethlehem according to Scripture

Because Herod wanted all children murder that were in the area of Bethlehem. And when taking a census in those days, that it can take up to years. And Nazareth is in the upper part of Israel, and which that means that they had to move up north then come back down south, through Jerusalem, where Herod resided, to reach Egypt.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Wasn't Jesus speaking about just the ' spiritually dead ' ones .

To me, a living dead person would Not need a resurrection.
Only the truly dead need a resurrection.
Jesus only resurrected truly dead people.
Jesus never taught alive at death in another realm, but sleeping in death at John 11:12-14
What Jesus taught is in harmony with the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach sleep in death:
Such as at: Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

The greatest hell ( grave in Scripture ) is the temporary hell / grave until resurrection day, or Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth, when biblical hell ( the grave ) will be No more -Revelation 20:13-14

True death is spiritual death. Physical death is of no consequence and is of the body only and of no importance. The Bible is a spiritual,Book and attaches all its importance upon nearness and obedience to God.

 

[Ben Avraham]

To me, Job 7:9-10 is talking about we can Not resurrect oneself, and at 2 Samuel 12:23 I notice after Psalms 49:12 continuing at Psalms 49:15 it says that God will redeem one's soul from the power of the grave. So, we can't resurrect oneself or another, so we need God to do that. As animals perish (verse 12) we all die returning to the dust as father Adam did - Genesis 3:19
The Psalmist believes that from the lowest ' hell ' (grave) God would have mercy and deliver him from the grave.
- Psalms 86:13 To me, Isaiah 26:10-14 is addressing the wicked who will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
Those Not wicked will awaken from death's sleep and sing - Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13
And as Isaiah mentioned at Isaiah 25:8 that death will be swallowed up.....

Psalm 49:15 means that God will redeem us from the power of exile which is akin to graves assigned to us among the nations. If you read Isaiah 53:8,9, when Jews are forced into exile, it is as if we have been cut off from the land of the living and graves are assigned to us among the nations. Even with the help of HaShem at the end of the exile, more Jews choose to remain in exile than those who decide to return to the Land of Israel. We have a better explanation from reading Daniel 12:2. Those who decide to return will feel as if they will be walking into eternal life which here is an euphemism to Aliyah. Those who decided to remain in exile will be taken as if condemned to reproach and everlasting abhorrence. Of course, we must take into account that the Prophet, in this case, Daniel, would consider himself to have failed in his work to promote Aliyah at the end of exile.

 

[Ben Avraham]

1 - then why do you have rabbis?

2 - it sounds like a comparative thing given the fact that christians are expected to have visions and dreams too.

3 - fyi, i'm not a christian, or a jew, but i'm very well versed in the Name; which was known to many cultures before judaism. God isn't exclusive Judaism, but is Omnipresent in all belief systems and all things, Amen-Ra, AUM, ..........

4 - Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

1 - To stand in the synagogues and teach the Scriptures to those who don't have time to study them.

2 - We all have dreams; not prophetical dreams though, because with the Scriptures, the prophetic system in Israel ceased to exist. (Deuteronomy 30:11-14)

3 - Indeed, HaShem, Who HaElohim of all peoples but, Israel, the Lord chose her as His treasured possession among all the peoples. "Indeed, all the earth is Mine," said HaShem, "but Israel shall be to Me a Kingdom of priests and a holy nation. (Exodus 19:5,6)

4 - That's a reference to the last days of God's People in exile when many prophets would rise to persuade the People to return to the Land of Israel aka to make Aliyah.[/QUOTE]

 

[Fool]

1 - To stand in the synagogues and teach the Scriptures to those who don't have time to study them.

so you go to the library to let the librarian read to the people, what they choose to ignore. why not call joshua to come and prophecy some more?

2 - We all have dreams; not prophetical dreams though, because with the Scriptures, the prophetic system in Israel ceased to exist. (Deuteronomy 30:11-14)

not every neighbor is jewish
Jeremiah 31:34

3 - Indeed, HaShem, Who HaElohim of all peoples but, Israel, the Lord chose her as His treasured possession among all the peoples. "Indeed, all the earth is Mine," said HaShem, "but Israel shall be to Me a Kingdom of priests and a holy nation. (Exodus 19:5,6)

so was ishmael promised.

4 - That's a reference to the last days of God's People in exile when many prophets would rise to persuade the People to return to the Land of Israel aka to make Aliyah.

ever heard of mount meru? mount kailash?

Judaism got the Name from Egypt.

One doesn't have to know anything about judaism to know about the Name of names because there are many others who know the name too.

the older being nuk pu nuk from the egyptian book of dead.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Because Herod wanted all children murder that were in the area of Bethlehem. And when taking a census in those days, that it can take up to years. And Nazareth is in the upper part of Israel, and which that means that they had to move up north then come back down south, through Jerusalem, where Herod resided, to reach Egypt.

Yes, because of the Bethlehem prophecy is why Herod chose Bethlehem.
Everyone involved in the census could Not have all moved to Bethlehem for years leaving houses and jobs.
I'm guessing (faulty memory) but I'll round off Nazareth as being about a 100 mile one-way trip (?)
Joseph and Mary would have made that trip from 'Nazareth to Jerusalem' each year. Jerusalem closer to Nazareth.
So, maybe they could have fled to Egypt from visiting in Jerusalem two years later.
To me, the magi could maybe have found Jesus in a house in Jerusalem ( Not Bethlehem )
- Just some thoughts.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

so was ishmael promised.

Also, to me, Ishmael was promised, but Not the same promise that was only for Isaac.
The promised ' seed ' (offspring) Messiah would only come exclusively through: Isaac.
- Please see Genesis 17:16; Genesis 17:19; Genesis 21:12 as reference verses for my above reasoning.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

True death is spiritual death. Physical death is of no consequence and is of the body only and of no importance. The Bible is a spiritual,Book and attaches all its importance upon nearness and obedience to God.

To me, if the physical body is of No consequence, then why did Jesus resurrect physical bodies ? - John 11:12-14
ALL of Jesus resurrections were physical. ALL of Jesus' healings were physical.
Jesus was giving us a preview, or coming attraction, of what he will be doing on a grand-global scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth.
To me, Jesus will have earthly subjects ( citizens ) from sea to sea - Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14 - on Earth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

To me, if the physical body is of No consequence, then why did Jesus resurrect physical bodies ? - John 11:12-14
ALL of Jesus resurrections were physical. ALL of Jesus' healings were physical.
Jesus was giving us a preview, or coming attraction, of what he will be doing on a grand-global scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth.
To me, Jesus will have earthly subjects ( citizens ) from sea to sea - Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14 - on Earth.

Christ came to redeem us spiritually.

He taught us to 'love one another'. That was His main message.

Yet we see Christianity today focusing on miracles instead when they should be focusing on why there is not one Christian Faith united around one Jesus and one Bible but instead 40,000 sects making a big deal of physical miracles who can't love each other?

So you can't unite around one Jesus and one Bible so you opt for physical miracles to try and say Christ was from God.

Not good enough. You want a skeptical world to trust in your message then unite and show the world what it means to love one another.

I believe in Jesus but the world has turned away because of disunity between Christians who are telling us to love one another when they themselves can't love each other and can't unite in one Faith.

The people who are already in hell are those whose words differ from their deeds.

 

[Fool]

Also, to me, Ishmael was promised, but Not the same promise that was only for Isaac.
The promised ' seed ' (offspring) Messiah would only come exclusively through: Isaac.
- Please see Genesis 17:16; Genesis 17:19; Genesis 21:12 as reference verses for my above reasoning.

Messiah

messiah's have always been. the annointed ones.

jesus calls them lambs in John 21:15. The one's who will sit down on the throne with him, or be centered from the judgement seat, the heart.




24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.” judge by action and not by form, or idolatry.


we see many here. Jesus' name is there name too.

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

 

[Ben Avraham]

so you go to the library to let the librarian read to the people, what they choose to ignore. why not call joshua to come and prophecy some more? not every neighbor is jewish. Jeremiah 31:34 so was ishmael promised. ever heard of mount meru? mount kailash? Judaism got the Name from Egypt. One doesn't have to know anything about judaism to know about the Name of names because there are many others who know the name too. the older being nuk pu nuk from the egyptian book of dead.

No, Ishmael was not promised but arranged to satisfy the lost of trust in a woman. Sara had lost her patience.
Judaism did not get its name from Egypt but from Judah aka Messiah ben David. (I Kings 11:36)

 

[Fool]

No, Ishmael was not promised but arranged to satisfy the lost of trust in a woman. Sara had lost her patience.
Judaism did not get its name from Egypt but from Judah aka Messiah ben David. (I Kings 11:36)

Judaism got the Name of names from the egyptian mystery religion. The Name is from Exodus 3:14.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Christ came to redeem us spiritually.
He taught us to 'love one another'. That was His main message.
Yet we see Christianity today focusing on miracles instead when they should be focusing on why there is not one Christian Faith united around one Jesus and one Bible but instead 40,000 sects making a big deal of physical miracles who can't love each other?
So you can't unite around one Jesus and one Bible so you opt for physical miracles to try and say Christ was from God.
Not good enough. You want a skeptical world to trust in your message then unite and show the world what it means to love one another.
I believe in Jesus but the world has turned away because of disunity between Christians who are telling us to love one another when they themselves can't love each other and can't unite in one Faith.
The people who are already in hell are those whose words differ from their deeds.

Would you please post the verses that say the ones in ' biblical ' hell are those whose words differ from their deeds.
Can you think of anyone righteous who went to hell ? ______
To me, the words of righteous Jesus did Not differ from his deeds.
Yet, the day Jesus' died Jesus went to the Bible's hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Psalms 16:10
The resurrected Jesus has the keys to unlock biblical hell for us according to Revelation 1:18
Since Jesus taught sleep in death at John 11:12-14, as do the old Hebrew Scriptures such as at:
Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5 ; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13 then, to me, the dead sleep in biblical hell because the Bible's hell is simply the temporary grave for the sleeping dead.

To me, agree, Jesus did teach us to love each other. Love others with the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus had according to John 13:34-35, but according to Luke 4:43 Jesus' main message was about God's kingdom. The kingdom that Jesus taught us to pray to come " thy kingdom come ".

Also, besides praying for God's kingdom government to come, Jesus wants us to hallow (hold sacred) God's name as he did - John 17:6; John 17:26

The physical miracles or healings that Jesus preformed while on Earth was a small sample, a preview, or coming attraction, of what King Jesus will be doing on a grand-global scale during his coming 1,000-year kingdom governing over Earth. That is when there will be healing for earth's nations according to Revelation 22:2

If physical healing was really possible today then faith healers would be working in hospitals.
( I guess they don't work in hospitals for the same reason psychics don't win the lotteries )

 

[loverofhumanity]

Love is an eternal law. Those who do not exercise this are not living according to what Jesus taught.

Jesus didn't teach Christians to split into 40,000 sects. To me a Christian has no voice in religion or God or the Bible while they proclaim Christ to be saviour but have no unity and agreement amongst themselves.

If Christ would come today He would disown current Christianity as nothing to do with what He taught. And He did come and has completely turned His back on the current sects which claim to be representative of Him.

If Christians can't be united in one faith and can't present a united front to the world then they have nothing to teach us about love of God or Jesus or religion.

You can't come to humanity offering forty thousand sects and ask us to follow. To me that is the hell Christianity are in. How to say to humanity you have the truth when you cannot agree amongst yourselves.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Messiah
messiah's have always been. the annointed ones.
jesus calls them lambs in John 21:15. The one's who will sit down on the throne with him, or be centered from the judgement seat, the heart.
24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.” judge by action and not by form, or idolatry.
we see many here. Jesus' name is there name too.
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

To me, Jesus is the singular Messiah ( anointed one ) descendant from Abraham through Isaac.
Those who rule with Jesus in the heavens are 'plural ' anointed ones, but Not as King and High Priest as Jesus is.
They are co-rulers with Jesus for a thousand years over Earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom.
- Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14 They are the ' little flock ' of lambs of Luke 12:32
Whereas, the earthly subjects are the ' other sheep ' of John 10:16

Since God's judgement is already recorded in Scripture we do have to judge God's judgement.
We can't read hearts, so we need not just impute wrong or bad motives to others.
However, according to Isaiah 11:3-4 Jesus can and will read hearts - Revelation 19:14-16

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Love is an eternal law. Those who do not exercise this are not living according to what Jesus taught.
Jesus didn't teach Christians to split into 40,000 sects. To me a Christian has no voice in religion or God or the Bible while they proclaim Christ to be saviour but have no unity and agreement amongst themselves.
If Christ would come today He would disown current Christianity as nothing to do with what He taught. And He did come and has completely turned His back on the current sects which claim to be representative of Him.
If Christians can't be united in one faith and can't present a united front to the world then they have nothing to teach us about love of God or Jesus or religion.
You can't come to humanity offering forty thousand sects and ask us to follow. To me that is the hell Christianity are in. How to say to humanity you have the truth when you cannot agree amongst yourselves.

To me, Christendom ( so-called Christian mostly in name only ) is what we mostly see today.
They have a form of godly devotion but prove false - 2 Timothy 3:5; Matthew 7:21-23

Yes, to me, Christ will disown current so-called Christianity (aka Christendom) - 1 Peter 4:17
As a new broom sweeps clean, God's ' house ' (religious houses of worship ) will be swept clean by Jesus to the point that only the meek who will inherit the Earth will be left. - Matthew 5:5; Matthew 25:31-33,37
We are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth when the figurative humble 'sheep'-like ones will be left on Earth, and can continue living on Earth, right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth begins.