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Do Mohammed and the Pope provide moral guidance on sex?
- Thread starter sonofskeptish
- Start date
There are many versions and opinions on how old was Aisha when Muhammad (pbuh) married her, some say 9, some say 6 and when i was in school my teacher said five and others. The point is that there is no proof of what age was she when she married. It is a historical information that can be right or wrong so i cant judge a prophet based on a story which can be either true or false. If it is false then thats that. If true, there are many explanations as to why this "Might" have happened. One is that it wasnt really a mariage, meaning that they didnt have sex until she was much older, but the reason for marring her was that she could live with him and be close to his life style as of course in the future she will play a vital role in Islam.
However, as a Muslim looking at this historical story i find it illogical and i don't believe it really happened.
However, as a Muslim looking at this historical story i find it illogical and i don't believe it really happened.
SugaCubez352
Member
1000s of cases of pedo-priests? Hmmm how about "millions" of signatures of Clerics and Muslims and a whole nation who support sex with minors? It's easy to use rhetoric to deny Muhammad did anything with a 9 year old. Explain today's headlines:
Quote Yahoo News:
"SAN'A, Yemen – Yemen's most influential Islamic cleric vowed on Saturday to gather a "million" signatures to protest a draft law banning child brides, in an increasingly vocal showdown against the country's weak government which needs the support of powerful religious leaders to hold onto power.
The issue of child brides in Yemen has attracted broad international attention, most recently when a 13-year-old girl bled to death earlier this month after her 23-year-old husband allegedly tied her down and forced her to have sex with him. [...]" - Source (topic)
I want to add that there are a lot of stories out there about Muhammad (pbuh) and a lot of these stories are simply not true. So here i am a Muslim and i come by a historical story which contradicts everything my religion and my prophet teaches, so how can that be true. The answer is simple, it's not. just like other thousands of false proof-less stories about popular or influential figures throughout the history.
Islamic clerics are men who study something and occupy a job just like anybody else. Some of them are good and some of them are bad. The fact that this is happening in an Islamic country from Islamic cleric is shameful, however it does not speak for Islam. There are a lot of wrong thoughts and cultural habits and community diseases that are falsely attached to Islam and every other religion. This is simply one of them.
McBell
Unbound
So how do YOU pick and choose which stories are true and which stories are false?
Well my way of finding out wether a story is true or false (since there is no way to be 100% sure) is like this: if a story does not contradict the morals and virtues of a prophet and the whole teachings of my religion, then i have no problem choosing to believe it is true although i wont take it for granted. If a story doesn't fit those standards, then i don't believe it. This might seem like i am picking what is suitable for me and disregarding what isn't, but that is not the case. Here i have this religion that i agree and believe in all its teachings, and every now and then i meet a story that shakes that system. but since the story has no proof then why assume its true when most likely it's not.
McBell
Unbound
Ah, so you merely pick what you like and discard the rest.
Well, at least you are honest about it.
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
Would you trust this guy to give moral advice?
As i said i choose to believe what doesn't contradict the teachings of islam, logically that is. meaning that since i believe that Muhammad is a prophet, it is impossible that he would steal for example. So when i find a story that says that Muhammad (pbuh) stole, either the story is not true or Muhammad is not a prophet. And since the story have no proof of it actually being true, and that i believe and agree with all the teachings of my religion and my prophet, there is no way that that story could be true at least in my eyes.
Most of these stories can't be proven either true or false. So as there is no proof that Muhammad did anything these stories said he did, why would i choose to believe they are true.
McBell
Unbound
Why would you choose to believe any of them at all?
If they cannot be proven true or false, you are simply free to pick and choose to believe which ever ones of them you want.
However, the problem with this type of free choose system is that everyone else is just as free to pick and choose whatever they want.
Truth tends to get left behind when you get to pretty much create your prophet however you want.
I agree with everything you said. All the stories the good ones and the bad ones cannot be proven, thats why i will never be able to bee 100% sure of which stories to believe. But put in mind that the truth is that some of them are true and some of them aren't. My believe in my religion and my prophet is not based on the stories on Muhammad. It is based on the Quran, since i believe in it, i believe that Muhammad is a virtuous prophet. I can never know for a fact what was he like, or what stories about him actually happened except the ones mentioned in the quran, But i can view these stories and find the ones that doesn't contradict the quran and are logical. I won't take them for granted as i said earlier, but the ones that i will surely discard as false ones are the ones that contradicts the morals of any prophet.
McBell
Unbound
In a nutshell, you are merely describing what criteria you use to pick and choose.
Even though there is no criteria that you can have that will sort the true stories from the false ones.
It is pure guess work on your part.
Interestingly enough, I suspect that one of your downfalls is the use of logic.
Humans do illogical things all the times.
I mean, when you stop and think about it, you have absolutely nothing but wishful thinking to guide you.
You cannot know which stories are true or which ones are false because you do not know Mohammad except through the stories you have to sort through.
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Two points:
yes i am describing my standards for choosing which stories to believe, but as i said, these stories are not what i base my belief in my religion on. So i am viewing them out of the hope of finding further information about my prophet that will help make my decisions in life about what is right and what is wrong. There are also methods that Islamic scholars have followed to sort out which stories are true and which are false, methods that i can also put into consideration while trying to find reliable information about my prophet.
As for the logical part, i don't believe that that applies to prophets especially with any thing concerned with their message. So if the action assumably done by the prophet in the story is illogical and contradicts other rules that Islam states, then the story in my eyes wont be true.
yes i am describing my standards for choosing which stories to believe, but as i said, these stories are not what i base my belief in my religion on. So i am viewing them out of the hope of finding further information about my prophet that will help make my decisions in life about what is right and what is wrong. There are also methods that Islamic scholars have followed to sort out which stories are true and which are false, methods that i can also put into consideration while trying to find reliable information about my prophet.
As for the logical part, i don't believe that that applies to prophets especially with any thing concerned with their message. So if the action assumably done by the prophet in the story is illogical and contradicts other rules that Islam states, then the story in my eyes wont be true.
McBell
Unbound
What i think doesn't apply to prophets is the illogical part. Meaning that i don't believe that prophets would make illogical actions or reactions in situations that would affect their message. I mean based on our belief in Islam, god chose Muhammad to be the last prophet on earth, so based on that belief, it is hard to see him making an illogical error with the size of the situation here (marrying a child). Especially considering the fact that prophets are supposed to be the most virtuous of all human beings.
McBell
Unbound
Are you saying that Mohammad, because he was a prophet, could not act in an illogical manner at all, or in an illogical manner concerning the message?
What prevented Mohammad from being human during the time of his inability to be illogical?
I mean, is it your claim that Allah prevented Mohammad from being illogical?
What about those who claim that Allah had to write the Koran because Mohammad was so stupid that is breathing was not automatic, he would have died?
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I am not trying to suggest any supernatural thing causing him not to make illogical actions, it is simply the fact the he based his decisions on the rules given to him by god. Still he is human and he might make mistakes right? well that is what i meant by the last part in my post "prophets are supposed to be the most virtuous of all". His virtuousness and morales will stop him from making decisions that go against god's rules. He could still make mistakes, but not ones that go against god's rules on purpose. Meaning that may be he could say something he shouldn't, or forget something. But not forget that he can't marry a nine year old.
McBell
Unbound
Now it sounds like you are just chasing your own tail.