Do Mohammed and the Pope provide moral guidance on sex?

[McBell]

How is that?

"He could still make mistakes, but not ones that go against god's rules on purpose"?

How is this anything BUT chasing your own tail?

 

[Badran]

Forgetting to say something as an example, is not an illogical error. it is just an error, he forgot. However, when a prophet knows that he can't marry a child, and still does it, that is illogical, because this is not an error of judgment, i mean this is not an instant decision that you make. You think about it and decide to do it and take some time doing it too (talking to her parents, wedding .......). Which means he did it on purpose although he knows that god has forbidden it. How is that logical for a prophet? prophets who are supposed to be the best human being has to offer. Prophets who are supposed to teach us god's rules. How can they teach it to us if they can't comply to it.

 

[linwood]

Let's be clear here: You just said that Allah punished the catholic church through priests sexually abusing living children for some dumb cartoons about a man who is long gone. And you are celebrating this? Jesus.

Yes and we`re supposed to buy the "Islam is a religion of peace." line?

I want no part of such a god.

I`ll pass.

 

[McBell]

Forgetting to say something as an example, is not an illogical error. it is just an error, he forgot. However, when a prophet knows that he can't marry a child, and still does it, that is illogical, because this is not an error of judgment, i mean this is not an instant decision that you make. You think about it and decide to do it and take some time doing it too (talking to her parents, wedding .......). Which means he did it on purpose although he knows that god has forbidden it. How is that logical for a prophet? prophets who are supposed to be the best human being has to offer. Prophets who are supposed to teach us god's rules. How can they teach it to us if they can't comply to it.

Now you are merely attempting to justify his pedophilia.
Of course, in doing so you have implied that Allah has no problem with pedophilia.

Definitely not a deity I find worthy of worship, but each their own.

 

[Badran]

well , first of all no need for insults as they are not arguments and are very disrespectful.
second of all, you are doing the same thing you criticize, you obviously choose to believe that the story is true based on no proof whatsoever.

finally, you are making statements that have no grounds, how am i attempting to justify it, i am proving that it is impossible for a prophet to do such a thing.

How have i implied that god has no problem with it?
by saying clearly quote"although he knows god has forbidden it".

There is no reason to be touchy or insulate about the subject i am trying to explain to you my point of view.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

well , first of all no need for insults as they are not arguments and are very disrespectful.
second of all, you are doing the same thing you criticize, you obviously choose to believe that the story is true based on no proof whatsoever.

finally, you are making statements that have no grounds, how am i attempting to justify it, i am proving that it is impossible for a prophet to do such a thing.

How have i implied that god has no problem with it?
by saying clearly quote"although he knows god has forbidden it".

There is no reason to be touchy or insulate about the subject i am trying to explain to you my point of view.

No atheist believes that any of these stories are true, we're just telling you what these stories say. I think you give your prophets too much credit. Abraham tried to kill his son, Moses committed mass murders, Muhammad had a 9 year old wife.

 

[Badran]

No atheist believes that any of these stories are true, we're just telling you what these stories say. I think you give your prophets too much credit. Abraham tried to kill his son, Moses committed mass murders, Muhammad had a 9 year old wife.

Well if you are saying you don't believe any stories about those prophets, which mean you could also believe that these people never existed, or that they existed but they were normal people, then that's okay, i mean that is your belief.

However, when you pick a bad story which have no proof and talk about it as a fact ( this whole thread was based on someone claiming that there is a fact that Muhammad married a 9 year old) that is not just telling what the story said, that is trying to come to a conclusion based on the story being a fact.

In this case, "Since Muhammad have married a 9 year old, do you think he should provide moral guidance on the topic of sex."

So i was just trying to clarify that this is just a story, it could be right and could be wrong.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Well if you are saying you don't believe any stories about those prophets, which mean you could also believe that these people never existed, or that they existed but they were normal people, then that's okay, i mean that is your belief.

However, when you pick a bad story which have no proof and talk about it as a fact ( this whole thread was based on someone claiming that there is a fact that Muhammad married a 9 year old) that is not just telling what the story said, that is trying to come to a conclusion based on the story being a fact.

In this case, "Since Muhammad have married a 9 year old, do you think he should provide moral guidance on the topic of sex."

So i was just trying to clarify that this is just a story, it could be right and could be wrong.

Not even the "good" stories have evidence to back them up. But the actual existence or nonexistence of Muhammad is really irrelevant to the question. Even if he is a fictional character, which I believe him to be, there is still a story in the Muslim holy texts which states that Muhammad had a 9 year old wife. Atheists didn't write this story to stain Muhammad's name, Muslims wrote this story and claim it to be true.

 

[McBell]

Not even the "good" stories have evidence to back them up. But the actual existence or nonexistence of Muhammad is really irrelevant to the question. Even if he is a fictional character, which I believe him to be, there is still a story in the Muslim holy texts which states that Muhammad had a 9 year old wife. Atheists didn't write this story to stain Muhammad's name, Muslims wrote this story and claim it to be true.

He already flat out said that he picks and chooses which stories he wants to be true and which ones he wants to be false based on what he wants Mohammad's morals to be.

He seems to be a firm believer in the "build your own Mohammad" way of deciding which stories are true and which ones are false.

Keep in mind that Mohammad was a prophet, thus making him much better than all other men...

 

[Badran]

Not even the "good" stories have evidence to back them up. But the actual existence or nonexistence of Muhammad is really irrelevant to the question. Even if he is a fictional character, which I believe him to be, there is still a story in the Muslim holy texts which states that Muhammad had a 9 year old wife. Atheists didn't write this story to stain Muhammad's name, Muslims wrote this story and claim it to be true.

First you should check the facts you post before you post them. There is no "HOLY TEXTS" in Islam except the quran, which i am pretty sure doesn't state that Muhammad (pbuh) had a nine year old wife.

The rest is just stories by muslims from older times, and i already explained in an earlier post that i view these stories out of hope of finding further information regarding my prophet. So, as i already said before, yes even the good stories doesn't have evidence to back them up.

I didn't say that Atheists wrote those stories, i never even mentioned atheists.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

First you should check the facts you post before you post them. There is no "HOLY TEXTS" in Islam except the quran, which i am pretty sure doesn't state that Muhammad (pbuh) had a nine year old wife.

The rest is just stories by muslims from older times, and i already explained in an earlier post that i view these stories out of hope of finding further information regarding my prophet. So, as i already said before, yes even the good stories doesn't have evidence to back them up.

I didn't say that Atheists wrote those stories, i never even mentioned atheists.

From my experience, Muslims believe the Hadiths to be holy texts.
I never said that you think atheists wrote these stories, I said that to make my point; that we are merely observing what has been written by people who share your same faith.

 

[Badran]

He already flat out said that he picks and chooses which stories he wants to be true and which ones he wants to be false based on what he wants Mohammad's morals to be.

He seems to be a firm believer in the "build your own Mohammad" way of deciding which stories are true and which ones are false.

Keep in mind that Mohammad was a prophet, thus making him much better than all other men...

I don't believe i should make my own Muhammad. I already know facts about him from the quran. However, i am looking for more info about his life and stuff like that. But i don't thrust these stories (the good ones) as facts in any conversation or post.

 

[McBell]

First you should check the facts you post before you post them. There is no "HOLY TEXTS" in Islam except the quran, which i am pretty sure doesn't state that Muhammad (pbuh) had a nine year old wife.

The rest is just stories by muslims from older times, and i already explained in an earlier post that i view these stories out of hope of finding further information regarding my prophet. So, as i already said before, yes even the good stories doesn't have evidence to back them up.

I didn't say that Atheists wrote those stories, i never even mentioned atheists.

The Hadiths are not holy?
Or perhaps they are not texts?

Interesting how I know many many Muslims who will flat out tell you that yes, the Hadiths are holy.

Are you going to go eselam's route and say that those Muslims are not real Muslims?
Or perhaps you will claim they are just wrong?

Interestingly how there are so many Muslims who would claim that there is no division in Islam.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I don't believe i should make my own Muhammad. I already know facts about him from the quran. However, i am looking for more info about his life and stuff like that. But i don't thrust these stories (the good ones) as facts in any conversation or post.

I'm curious to know what you believe the "good" stories to be.

 

[Badran]

I never said that you think atheists wrote these stories, I said that to make my point; that we are merely observing what has been written by people who share your same faith.

I misunderstood, because you mentioned that twice so i thought that you think i claim that they did.

 

[Badran]

The Hadiths are not holy?
Or perhaps they are not texts?

Interesting how I know many many Muslims who will flat out tell you that yes, the Hadiths are holy.

Are you going to go eselam's route and say that those Muslims are not real Muslims?
Or perhaps you will claim they are just wrong?

Interestingly how there are so many Muslims who would claim that there is no division in Islam.

Please don't claim on my behalf.

We believe that the teachings of our prophet are a part of our religion. That doesn't mean they are "Holy texts". We use the word Holy to describe anything that has to do directly with god. However, if some Muslims use the word elsewhere, that's not my responsibility. Although i know for a fact that most muslims agree on the subject that holiness is only for god.

 

[Badran]

I'm curious to know what you believe the "good" stories to be.

I explained earlier that the "good ones" are the ones that doesn't contradict with the quran and are logical. Still i won't be sure they are correct, but at least i have no objection on them.

 

[Commoner]

Do religious figures like Mohammed and the Pope provide moral guidance on the topic of sex that their followers claim?

Well, the pope says - don't do it, but if you do, make sure you do it right (without a condom) so that when you get pregnant, you can give aids to your baby and let god take care of the rest. Thank you, Mr. Ratzinger!

 

[McBell]

Please don't claim on my behalf.

We believe that the teachings of our prophet are a part of our religion. That doesn't mean they are "Holy texts". We use the word Holy to describe anything that has to do directly with god. However, if some Muslims use the word elsewhere, that's not my responsibility. Although i know for a fact that most muslims agree on the subject that holiness is only for god.

I made no claims.
I asked questions.

Interestingly enough, I know many Muslims who believe that the Hadith's are as holy as the Koran.

Interesting the egg shells you walk upon.

 

[Badran]

I made no claims.
I asked questions.

Interestingly enough, I know many Muslims who believe that the Hadith's are as holy as the Koran.

Interesting the egg shells you walk upon.

You did make claims. If you were asking, you wouldn't give so many options of what my answer would be in the form of questions, you would have asked and waited for my answer. The way i see it, you were saying those claims in the form of questions just to make these presumable answers sound silly. "Or perhaps you will claim they are just wrong?"

As for the part where you say that you know a lot of muslims who believe that the hadiths are holy as the quran. I already answered that, if some muslims do, that is not my responsibility. However, i am born to muslim parents, have been a muslim my whole life, live in an Arab country where the majority of the population are muslims, and Most of these muslims as well as muslims from other Arab countries agree on the following:

That the Hadiths are a crucial and essential part of our religion, we take our teachings from both the quran and Hadiths, so we must take the teachings in them with the same seriousness. That is it. That doesn't mean they are Holy. Nothing is holy in our belief except god and anything that has to do directly with him. However if some use the word holy describing the Hadiths out of mistake or out of emphasis for it's importance or because they just belief that they are holy, that is not my responsibility.