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Do people understand the trinity doctrine?

What is the origin of the Trinity doctrine?

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.
 
only the Father and Son will be in Heaven

This is not true according to the holy scriptures.

  • John 14:2, 3
    2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places.
    Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you.3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.

    In red are the key phrases.
    1.)In my Fathers house refers to His holy Temple,which is in heaven.

    Revelation 11:19 "And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened;...."

  • 2.) "I am going my way to prepare for you." Jesus is speaking of leaving back to heaven to prepare it for his faithful apostles.
  • Mark 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
  • 3.) "So that where I am you also may be."
  • Revelation 14:4 " ...They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb."
  • Do you know what first fruits refers to?
  • "Firstfruits"

  • "The earliest fruits of a season; the first results or products of anything. The Hebrew word reʼ·****hʹ (from a root meaning “head”) is used in the sense of first part, point of departure, or “beginning”"
    (De 11:12; Ge 1:1; 10:10); the “best” (Ex 23:19, ftn); and “firstfruits” (Le 2:12). “First ripe fruits” is rendered from the Hebrew bik·ku·rimʹ, which is used especially with regard to grain and fruit. (Na 3:12) The Greek term for firstfruits (a·par·kheʹ) comes from a root having the basic meaning “primacy.”

  • These first fruits are the ones who will serve in heaven with Jesus Christ.

  • Firstfruits LIBRARY
 
OK Jesus may have a permanent home in Heaven and may control things from there but the kingdom will beon earth and those who follow Jesus will be in that kingdom on earth. why does the Lord's prayer say - thy kingdom come, thy will be done ON EARTH? because the kindom will be on earth and people will be doing God's will on earth not in Heaven. only the Father and Son will be in Heaven

Ps.You might want to address the comment to the person you are speaking to.That way for sure they get it.I just happened to stumble across it.:thumbsup:
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
You don't seem to understand monotheism. We don't bow, worship, or honor anything/entities, that isn't God. Jesus has to be God, for our faith. This other people sitting next to God stuff is metaphor.

It specifically says Jesus sits at the right hand of God.

Two Gods in Heaven at the same time. Not monotheism.

Either Jesus isn't a God, or we have a Pagan trinity.

*
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
It specifically says Jesus sits at the right hand of God.

Two Gods in Heaven at the same time. Not monotheism.

Either Jesus isn't a God, or we have a Pagan trinity.

*

so, the entire text is metaphor? Jewish people are randomly calling each other 'gods'? Xians have no idea about their own faith? /they know that it is supposed to be monotheism/.
Sorry, but your theory doesn't make sense, too improbable.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Therefore.... Jesu is a manifestation of YHWH. You seem to be defacto agreeing with me?

NOT SO.

Jesus - according to you folks - is supposed to be a earthly enfleshed - part - of God. Three in ONE.

When the Bible says two separate beings are in heaven together - it tosses out the trinity idea.

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
so, the entire text is metaphor? Jewish people are randomly calling each other 'gods'? Xians have no idea about their own faith? /they know that it is supposed to be monotheism/.
Sorry, but your theory doesn't make sense, too improbable.

Jewish people do not call themselves Gods.

That "Gods" is a mistranslation of a word also meaning CHOSEN, and Magistrates.

*
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Jewish people do not call themselves Gods.

That "Gods" is a mistranslation of a word also meaning CHOSEN, and Magistrates.

*
Elohim means God. Have you asked about this in the Judaism DIR? Elohim is used solely at various places in the Bible, it means the same thing as YHWH. The verses translated thusly to give one an impression otherwise, are either completely off, ie 'God amongst gods', does not actually mean God amongst kings, or, Elohim and any variant is explicitly designated as who/what it is referring to. For an example, I would say, 'I worship God'. I would also say, 'Thor is a god'.
We know that I am not referring to Thor, when I say that I worship God. We know this, because what I am saying, is in context to the beliefs. The Scriptures, whether Jewish or Xian, are written under the same concept/context.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Elohim means God. Have you asked about this in the Judaism DIR? Elohim is used solely at various places in the Bible, it means the same thing as YHWH. The verses translated thusly to give one an impression otherwise, are either completely off, ie 'God amongst gods', does not actually mean God amongst kings, or, Elohim and any variant is explicitly designated as who/what it is referring to. For an example, I would say, 'I worship God'. I would also say, 'Thor is a god'.
We know that I am not referring to Thor, when I say that I worship God. We know this, because what I am saying, is in context to the beliefs. The Scriptures, whether Jewish or Xian, are written under the same concept/context.

When the Priests ask Jesus about him being "Theos" "God" he points them to the Tanakh text TRANSLATED " I said Ye are Gods (Elohiym)."

Obviously YHVH did not call the Hebrew people "Gods." The word also mean Magistrates, Chosen, etc.

In that specific Tanakh text YHVH is asking why the Magistrates/Leaders have not punished the wicked, and helped the weak.

When he points to that Tanakh text, he is confirming that he is the MESSIAH - the MAGISTRATE/Priest above them all.

That got him killed.

They did not call him "GOD," nor did he ever say he was "God."

His claim was that he was the awaited Messiah, The special human from the line of David, that brings about the end, and FINAL JUDGMENT! He is the final and ultimate JUDGE/Magistrate.


*
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
WirePaladin, your words betray you. Why should I believe you when you've already made it evident that you are not a man of faith?

Johnlove's testimony fits with all that he has shared regarding his faith in Jesus Christ.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva, before I respond to points you've raised, can you tell me why you accept the Tanakh as God's word, but not the New Testament?

You need to use the QUOTE function - which notifies that a reply has been left. I just found this while looking for something else.

I don't accept any of the religions of Abraham.

Christians try to push their religious ideas and laws onto the rest of us -

Thus - we have to counter the BULL - using your own texts.

Tanakh is far older, and the Christian writers had the Tanakh texts, to write verses that make them match.

However, they also misunderstood, or mistranslated, some of those texts, leading to the error of trinity, and Jesus as a God.

*
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It is not a good idea to tell a faith what they believe.
Unitarians do believe in one God.
However it is down to the individual how they interpret the bible and what they derive from it.
Unitarinism has no set dogma.
Some do indeed believe that Jesus is God's son. While others do not see him as an actual son, but only as we are also seen, as the children of God. In either event, Jesus was chosen to teach us God's message of love.

I believe that leads to very little fellowship since people believe such diverse things. The only thing they have in common is their unorthodoxy.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I believe that leads to very little fellowship since people believe such diverse things. The only thing they have in common is their unorthodoxy.

How do you chose what is orthodox out of the thousands of denominations.
We all believe what we believe.
In an given congregation few discuss in detail what they believe.
What they do discuss is what their church teaches.
Fellowship like worship requires remarkably little accompanying dogma.

Much religious discussion is about the interpretation of scripture, any conclusion is usually individual to the speaker, and specific to a given context.
There is no universal interpretation of the Bible ,neither in detail nor context.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

This quotation seems to capture the development well. What's interesting is that a doctrine was needed for the sake of truth and unity. At the centre of the controversy was the person of Christ and his authority. The difficulty with establishing a doctrine based on the person of Jesus is that faith and revelation determine your response. It is not established by reason alone. It's easy enough to look at Jesus as a human and say that he walked, talked, felt hunger, pain etc but it's harder to see through the flesh and recognise the Spirit of God at work. Jesus said to Martha, 'I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?'

The question posed by Jesus is aimed at each one of us. To believe in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, is to believe that the Spirit of God was present in Jesus. You are not focused on BELIEF IN HIS HUMANITY but on BELIEF IN GOD. Nor was the Spirit of God in Jesus some watered down version of the Father. It was the same spirit as that of the Father. Again, the Holy Spirit given to believers, called the baptism of Jesus Christ, is the same spirit.

I can understand why it was hard for Jews to come to terms with this revelation regarding Jesus Christ, but the truth is that salvation is only possible if God enters the earthly arena. God does not stop being God by entering into a tabernacle.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
NOT SO.

Jesus - according to you folks - is supposed to be a earthly enfleshed - part - of God. Three in ONE.

When the Bible says two separate beings are in heaven together - it tosses out the trinity idea.

*

There is no ''you folks''. polytheism is your own incorrect interpretation of the Scripture.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Thinking on it, the references to the Glory of God residing in a cloud above the mercy seat, in the Tabernacle, should convince doubters that it was God's intention to dwell on earth in this manner. As the scriptures say, 'Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?' (1Corinthians 3:16)

See also Leviticus 16:2, The Lord said, 'I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat'.
Exodus 25:22, the Lord says, ' And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony...'

Concerning the temple of his body, Jesus said, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.'
 
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