Do trans-activists allow for trans-moderates?

[icehorse]

Everything else aside, the fact that you keep trying to belittle others by swinging around the word "dogma" and insisting their opinions ARE dogmatic feels... well... quite dogmatic to me.

I'd like you to notice that unless I'm attacked personally, I criticize ideas, and only ideas.

 

[icehorse]

@Debater Slayer - Another thought on the medical profession. I'm sure you're aware that the US health care system is the most expensive in the world - by far. And that it's results are mediocre at best.

It's often stated that our health care system is fundamentally NOT a wellness system. It's a system that rewards cutting people open, and prescribing drugs.

hmmm...

 

[JDMS]

I'd like you to notice that unless I'm attacked personally, I criticize ideas, and only ideas.

Actions speak louder than words.

 

[JDMS]

@Debater Slayer - Another thought on the medical profession. I'm sure you're aware that the US health care system is the most expensive in the world - by far. And that it's results are mediocre at best.

It's often stated that our health care system is fundamentally NOT a wellness system. It's a system that rewards cutting people open, and prescribing drugs.

hmmm...

Gender affirming exists outside of the US.

 

[Debater Slayer]

That's a strawman, that's not what I've been proposing.

It's what anti-trans legislation has been doing in some parts of the US, and when someone demonizes gender-affirming care and continually brings up surgery as if it were routinely performed on minors (even though medical guidelines explicitly state that it should be rarely performed on them), they're not helping to clarify the misconceptions that underpin such bans.

And, you've failed again to answer my reasonable questions.

I've answered your points throughout this thread, and so have multiple other members. You're just not acknowledging the answers because they disagree with a certain narrative. That's your prerogative, but it doesn't mean anyone has failed to answer.

==

As for the not-so-subtle personal slams... I think that before you go slinging mud you ought to ask yourself why you've avoided answering so many of my questions in this thread.

See above, and there are no personal slams. I'm directly asking you why you're making an exception for trans issues by denying established medical positions about them when you accept peer-reviewed science on evolution, climate change, and numerous other topics.

==

You continue to use the phrase "gender affirming care" (GAC). Would you agree that such care is multi-faceted? Would you be able to list all of the approaches in common use to provide GAC? I'm NOT proposing that we withhold GAC. Do you get that?

I've been saying that such care is multifaceted throughout the thread, and I've also quoted a medical source explaining that this is the case. On the other hand, you keep bringing up surgery and hormone therapy for minors as if they were a trump card against gender-affirming care. You also said this:

As I said elsewhere on this thread, I think kids ought to be able to explore and talk about these topics, and that parents and other authority figures should not tell kids what to think or how to feel. But topics like sexual orientation and gender expression and such are extremely complex. Couple that with the fact that kids are going through confusing hormonal changes and confusing peer pressure, and I do not think any irreversible measures should be suggested or approved for people under 21 (or thereabouts). So, no hormones, no surgeries.

If this were implemented on a legal level, it would literally kill some trans people by denying them necessary care. This is not a "moderate" position, and it's not a reasonable one either. It's an ideological one that goes against established medical guidelines.

==

Step back and consider the words of Carl Sagan: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Medicine is an evolving science. Approaches that were mainstream a few decades ago are now considered bad practice.

In 2023 we're seeing enormous spikes in the rates of transgender youths. We're also experiencing global existential crisis. The youths of today are being immersed in toxic social media. Their diets become more artificial every year. The air they breathe is fouler. They're constantly exposed to a post-truth world.

Now when a young person feels they're in the wrong body, there is no physical way to prove or disprove this claim. What tools do we have? Talk therapy, right? And therapists are also in the situation of trying to help people in this mess of a world. Therapists are largely in uncharted waters these days. Are youths being asked to leave social media? Perhaps, but I haven't heard of that intervention.

Instead of guessing how professionals diagnose gender dysphoria and theorizing about the idea of asking minors to leave social media, it's pretty easy to look up how the condition is diagnosed:

How is gender dysphoria diagnosed?​

You must meet certain criteria to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and these criteria differ based on your age.

To be diagnosed with gender dysphoria as a teenager or adult, you must have experienced significant distress for at least six months due to at least two of the following:

• marked incongruence between your experienced and expressed gender and your primary or secondary sex characteristics
• strong desire to be rid of your primary or secondary sex characteristics
• strong desire for the primary or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
• strong desire to be of the other gender
• strong desire to be treated as the other gender
• strong conviction that you have the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender

Children are typically diagnosed with gender dysphoria if they have experienced significant distress for at least six months and at least six of the following:

• strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that they are the other gender
• strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
• strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of their assigned gender
• strong dislike of their sexual anatomy
• strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match their experienced gender

Gender dysphoria of childhood is not a surgical diagnosis. It is a medical diagnosis that does not require treatment, other than possibly individual or family therapy, until a child reaches puberty. Gender dysphoria is typically diagnosed by a therapist or other mental health professional.

Gender Services | Boston Children's Hospital

<p>Learn about services for gender non-conforming and transgender patients at the Boston Children’s Hospital Gender Multispecialty Service (GeMS).</p>

www.childrenshospital.org

Your posts make it sound like it's a walk in the park to obtain a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. That is a claim that requires extraordinary evidence, and I haven't seen any for it so far either. Is it possible that a subset of professionals are not rigorous enough in their diagnoses? Sure, as is the case with every single other medical condition. The argument here implies that gender dysphoria is somehow an anomaly or requires a different approach from, say, irreversible bone surgeries for minors. I don't see anything to justify this.

So the first extraordinary claim that concerns me is: "In this horribly messed up, world, when a hormone riddled youth, positively awash in propaganda, says they feel they're in the wrong body, a routine solution should be to perform chemical castration on them, and perhaps artificially alter their body parts, subsequent osteoporosis be damned."

"Hormone-riddled youth"? That's an extremely stigmatizing description of people who are on hormone therapy per professional guidance. This is like calling people on medications for anxiety or depression "drug-addled." The side effects of treatments for many conditions, including gender dysphoria, can be quite challenging. This is not exclusive to any one condition and is not a reason to dismiss the treatment without weighing the potential risks and benefits with qualified professionals.

And again, no reputable medical organization states that diagnosis of gender dysphoria should just be handed out when someone "says they feel they're in the wrong body," nor is surgery typically performed on minors. In addition to the stigmatizing wording in that quote, it's both a misrepresentation of medical guidelines and a marked exaggeration.

Given that no physical evidence is possible, I would say that EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE to support this claim has not been established.

The same goes for almost all mental illnesses and conditions. What should be done? Should prescriptions of antipsychotics be banned for children? What about antidepressants? Sometimes children need those, but going by the logic you used above, the lack of physical evidence—assuming you mean something like an X-ray or MRI—should also lead to legal restrictions on them even when professionals deem them necessary.

Another extraordinary claim is that "A transwoman is a woman."

Or it's just a simple act of recognizing their gender identity. Most of the people I've seen claim that this is such an "extraordinary" thing are either against trans rights or deny the evidence and science about trans people to begin with, usually for ideological or religious reasons.

Notice that in this thread, I was asked to provide the definition of a woman, and I did so. No one countered me, or offered a different definition. Using my unchallenged definition, a transwoman is most definitely NOT a woman.

I challenged it several pages ago:

Since you included "female" in the definition, it now includes trans men as women. How do you account for that contradiction? And how do you account for trans women? If not women, what are they?

Seems like the claim that "A transwoman is a woman" fits the bill for dogma quite nicely, no?

It fits the acknowledgement that sex and gender are not synonymous despite some overlap.

I'm finding that I'm repeating quite a few of my points because you're bringing up the same things repeatedly. I didn't want to leave the harmful claims in this thread unchallenged, but now I think I've sufficiently responded to them. I just hope you don't dismiss or overlook all of the input you've gotten from people in this thread by calling it "dogma" or for any other reason. I'm not sure why someone would start a thread like this unless they were willing to consider others' input.

 

[SomeRandom]

@Debater Slayer - Another thought on the medical profession. I'm sure you're aware that the US health care system is the most expensive in the world - by far. And that it's results are mediocre at best.

It's often stated that our health care system is fundamentally NOT a wellness system. It's a system that rewards cutting people open, and prescribing drugs.

hmmm...

My country (Australia) is one of the cheaper universal healthcare models of the world overall and we still offer gender affirming care, last I checked. In both public and private hospitals alike.

Hell all of our drugs must first prove they are cost effective before our government bothers to buy them for public and even private use. This includes drugs routinely used in gender affirming care.
I don’t know if the US does this, but our pharmacies even offer cheap home brand alternatives to most brand name drugs in order to try to limit costs for folks

So I mean my heart certainly goes out to trans individuals in the US healthcare system, since they likely pay something like double (or even more) for their treatment.
But gender affirming care is still offered by all countries that have universal healthcare models in place.
Probably does so for far cheaper than the US does.
But that’s kind of cliche at this point.
I mean what’s that old joke? If Breaking Bad was produced in literally any other modern civilised country, it would simply be a slice of life drama about a man getting cancer treatment lol

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

but i'm not saying that. I don't think you read my posts carefully

Is a transwomen a woman? Yes or no? Just answer in principle.
If we can agree on that, I know we can sort the rest out.

 

[PureX]

I agree that most media is skewed. So google it.

Google is media. And unchecked media at that.

And a couple of instances, even if true, among 320 million people does not a trend, make. Far more students are being murdered by gun-wielding lunatics each year in this country than are being brutalized on girl's soccer fields or assaulted in girls bathrooms by any trans-bullies.

 

[icehorse]

It's what anti-trans legislation has been doing in some parts of the US, and when someone demonizes gender-affirming care and continually brings up surgery as if it were routinely performed on minors (even though medical guidelines explicitly state that it should be rarely performed on them), they're not helping to clarify the misconceptions that underpin such bans.

I think perhaps you're aligning my stance with the stance taken by anti-trans legislators? Please step back, this whole thread is about being moderate. This response of yours is an example of the kind of thinking that concerns me. It would appear that from your perspective, any disagreement on this topic makes a person - me in this case - a far right extremist.

For the Nth time - I'm not attacking gender affirming care!

It seems like you've got your mind made up what ALL my positions must be since I disagree with you on a few points?

Your posts make it sound like it's a walk in the park to obtain a diagnosis of gender dysphoria

It appears to be getting easier and easier.

Here is another article from Reuters:

As children line up at gender clinics, families confront many unknowns

The same goes for almost all mental illnesses and conditions. What should be done? Should prescriptions of antipsychotics be banned for children? What about antidepressants? Sometimes children need those, but going by the logic you used above, the lack of physical evidence—assuming you mean something like an X-ray or MRI—should also lead to legal restrictions on them even when professionals deem them necessary.

I'm inferring here that you're claiming all drugs have equally dangerous side effects? I haven't head that anti-depressants negatively impact bone growth.

"Hormone-riddled youth"? That's an extremely stigmatizing description of people who are on hormone therapy per professional guidance.

Sorry for the confusion. I was saying that ALL youth are hormone riddled - as a part of growing up

And again, no reputable medical organization states that diagnosis of gender dysphoria should just be handed out when someone "says they feel they're in the wrong body," nor is surgery typically performed on minors. In addition to the stigmatizing wording in that quote, it's both a misrepresentation of medical guidelines and a marked exaggeration.

Stepping back for a minute, I want to say that I appreciate the time and energy you're taking in this thread.

Let's reestablish some points from earlier in the thread:

1 - My definition of woman is simple: an adult, human, female.

I honestly do not recall any responses to that definition, can you reiterate your response? thanks.

2 - I asked for a definition of trans. I proposed trans is when "a person feels like they have the wrong body".

As I recall, no other definition was provided.

3 - I asked how trans is classified. I might be mis-recalling, but "disorder" and "mental disorder" were rejected. That's fine, but that leaves open the question, how is trans classified?

3b - You bring up "stigma" a lot. I agree that it's a valid concern. But it often seems that in trying to reduce stigma, the cure is worse than the problem?

4 - I seem to recall being told that not all trans people have gender dysphoria? Perhaps I'm mis-remembering that?

5 - You just brought up transmen. I would say the same thing. The claim that "transmen are men" is an extraordinary claim that defies basic biology.

6 - You claim that we should rely on the conclusions of the healthcare system. I claim that our healthcare system is quite flawed, often engaged in profiteering, and is always evolving. I suspect we will have to agree to disagree on this point.

7 - Psychology is a very broad discipline. It encompasses not only the mental, but also the physical. Many leading psychologists are seeing that it's usually a mistake to isolate a phenomenon from the system or environment in which it exists. I have mentioned how toxic our youths' world has become in many regards. One example of an intervention would be to remove a troubled youth from social media. It would appear that you side with a healthcare system that tends to avoid systems thinking, and focuses on cutting and drugs as the only approaches to consider?

I'm finding that I'm repeating quite a few of my points because you're bringing up the same things repeatedly. I didn't want to leave the harmful claims in this thread unchallenged, but now I think I've sufficiently responded to them. I just hope you don't dismiss or overlook all of the input you've gotten from people in this thread by calling it "dogma" or for any other reason. I'm not sure why someone would start a thread like this unless they were willing to consider others' input.

I've tried to recap here. Feel free to fill in any points I've missed.

I am more than willing to consider other input. But as long as I'm being consistently strawmanned and having my fundamental questioned ignored, other's input won't carry a lot of water.

 

[icehorse]

Is a transwomen a woman? Yes or no? Just answer in principle.
If we can agree on that, I know we can sort the rest out.

If you've been reading my posts, you'd know my answer. But I'll reiterate:

Saying that "a transwoman is a woman" is an extraordinary claim. In general, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to prove, and I do not believe extraordinary evidence exists. The claim defies fundamental biological truths.

The only way in which this claim could be true is if the meanings of fundamental words in our language are twisted.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

@Debater Slayer - Another thought on the medical profession. I'm sure you're aware that the US health care system is the most expensive in the world - by far. And that it's results are mediocre at best.

It's often stated that our health care system is fundamentally NOT a wellness system. It's a system that rewards cutting people open, and prescribing drugs.

hmmm...

Yeah and that invalidates the medical practice in the rest of the world, right?!! So yes, account in part for the US. But remember we are in general debate because you chose that and thus the world as such applies for all of the subject as hand.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If you've been reading my posts, you'd know my answer. But I'll reiterate:

Saying that "a transwoman is a woman" is an extraordinary claim. In general, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to prove, and I do not believe extraordinary evidence exists. The claim defies fundamental biological truths.

The only way in which this claim could be true is if the meanings of fundamental words in our language are twisted.

Yeah, we won't agree. In effect you confuse objective, social and psychological and demand objective evidence for what in part is not objective.

 

[icehorse]

Google is media. And unchecked media at that.

And a couple of instances, even if true, among 320 million people does not a trend, make. Far more students are being murdered by gun-wielding lunatics each year in this country than are being brutalized on girl's soccer fields or assaulted in girls bathrooms by any trans-bullies.

I often suspect you're correct about google. So duck duck go it

And of course, abuse committed by transwomen is not widespread. But this issue is not restricted to the abuse concern, it has many other facets, as we've been discussing.

 

[icehorse]

Yeah and that invalidates the medical practice in the rest of the world, right?!! So yes, account in part for the US. But remember we are in general debate because you chose that and thus the world as such applies for all of the subject as hand.

Agreed, I think healthcare in many other parts of the world is far superior to the US's. But to a lessor degree, the "cut and drug" orientation is still prevalent.

 

[icehorse]

Yeah, we won't agree. In effect you confuse objective, social and psychological and demand objective evidence for what in part is not objective.

There are aspects of understanding trans that are objective and some that are not. We shouldn't throw the objective aspects under the bus for some political reasons.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Agreed, I think healthcare in many other parts of the world is far superior to the US's. But to a lessor degree, the "cut and drug" orientation is still prevalent.

Take #2 for a female.

A female is only objective facts.
A female is only subjective facts.
A female is only general social facts.
A female or rather a human is a combination of all the above.

As long as you insist that it is objective that you choose to focus on only the fist one, you can't understand the your position of choosing only the objective one as relevant is subjective.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

There are aspects of understanding trans that are objective and some that are not. We shouldn't throw the objective aspects under the bus for some political reasons.

No, but we shouldn't claim that the objective of what makes a female a female is the end of it all. That is what you do and that is also a political reasons in the end.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And... back to the OP we go:

As a trans-moderate I:

- have empathy for people who have gender or body dysphoria

What you've posted in this thread suggests this isn't true.

- support the creation of public facilities for trans people
- support the idea of "open" categories for competitions, sports and otherwise.
- support ADULTS who chose to modify their bodies
- support fair treatment for trans people

You're leaving out the part where you argued for positions that put trans people at risk of violence.

... but since you aren't committing the violence yourself, you expect a pat on the back? Give your head a shake.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I just wanted to jump in and offer my answer to a series of queries, from what I understand.

1 - My definition of woman is simple: an adult, human, female.

How is that simple? It's circular.

2 - I asked for a definition of trans. I proposed trans is when "a person feels like they have the wrong body".

Also not a good definition. There are trans people who do not "feel like they have the wrong body". A trans person is any person who does not identify or associate with the gender assigned to them at birth.

3 - I asked how trans is classified. I might be mis-recalling, but "disorder" and "mental disorder" were rejected. That's fine, but that leaves open the question, how is trans classified?

By not associating with your assigned gender at birth.

4 - I seem to recall being told that not all trans people have gender dysphoria? Perhaps I'm mis-remembering that?

This is correct. Gender dysphoria is a specific condition that CAN occur in trans people, but is not exclusive to, nor ubiquitous within, trans people. There is a common misunderstanding that "gender dysphoria" is just the medical term for "being trans", but that is not the case. It is specifically the feeling of unease that can result from a mismatch between your biological sex and your gender identity. Not all trans people experience this.

5 - You just brought up transmen. I would say the same thing. The claim that "transmen are men" is an extraordinary claim that defies basic biology.

No, it doesn't. It's not a biological claim. It's about gender, not biology.

6 - You claim that we should rely on the conclusions of the healthcare system. I claim that our healthcare system is quite flawed, often engaged in profiteering, and is always evolving. I suspect we will have to agree to disagree on this point.

So we should just ignore the conclusions of doctors and other experts? Do you apply this logic to all medical opinions or exclusively to the medical consensus about trans people? Are you a climate skeptic? A flat earther? Do you think Covid was a hoax?

7 - Psychology is a very broad discipline. It encompasses not only the mental, but also the physical. Many leading psychologists are seeing that it's usually a mistake to isolate a phenomenon from the system or environment in which it exists. I have mentioned how toxic our youths' world has become in many regards. One example of an intervention would be to remove a troubled youth from social media. It would appear that you side with a healthcare system that tends to avoid systems thinking, and focuses on cutting and drugs as the only approaches to consider?

The medical system is not what we use to solve social problems. They exist to medically assist individuals to prescribe best practice for their individual treatment. A doctor who prescribes anti-depressants to a person whose depression is brought about by social isolation or alienation due to a broad range of cultural, social or historical factors isn't aiming to cure those cultural, historical or social problems. They're just taking what they think is the best route to keep that person alive. And when we have thousands of studies all saying that the best way to keep these particular people alive is with a specific range of treatments, you cannot just ignore it because there could be social, cultural or historical sources for it. What matters in the first instance is keeping people alive. Social change is a separate issue, and tends to come with time.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'd like you to notice that unless I'm attacked personally, I criticize ideas, and only ideas.

That's what you think this is? "criticizing ideas, and only ideas"?

And @9-10ths_Penguin - I recommend you lay off the kool-aid