Do trans-activists allow for trans-moderates?

[PureX]

I would crudely summarize my stance as: trans-empathetic but largely anti-trans-activist. CRUDELY!

But whose idea of "trans activist" are you using? As far as I can see all "trans-activism" seems to embody is the fight for equal rights and protections under the law. Not coercing children into trans behavior.

The crucial point is to separate ideas and feelings about trans people from ideas and feelings about the ideas of trans-activists.

Based on what? Their desire for equal rights and protections under the law? I'm pretty sure everyone involved in the trans movement want that. And so do a lot of people not involved in it.

It is common for dogmatists of all stripes to try to conflate bigotry with criticism of ideas.

When the shoe fits, it fits.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Because those procedures do NOT change a person's sex. Sex is baked into every cell in our bodies.

Medical science recognizes genetics as only one of the elements of a person's sex, which includes physical and hormonal aspects.

Imagine a person who has medically fully transitioned from female to male, and medical science has advanced to the point where physically, that person looks every bit a male as their born-male counterparts, but genetically, they are female. Would another male dating them be considered homosexual or heterosexual?

 

[Colt]

I don't know if "trans-moderate" is an accepted term or not?

But I'll take a whack at what it means to me.

A "trans-moderate":

- is empathetic towards people who have gender or body dysphoria
- supports the creation of public facilities for trans people
- supports the idea of "open" categories for competitions, sports and otherwise.
- supports ADULTS who chose to modify their bodies
- supports fair treatment for trans people

- DOES NOT agree that therapists should "affirm" anything. That's not therapy
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be told how to identify
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be subjected to surgeries or homones
- DOES NOT agree that trans-women are women
- DOES NOT agree that sex is a social construct
- DOES NOT agree that differences in opinion on these matters is violence
- DOES NOT agree that arbitrarily declared pronouns are harmless

Rule of thumb is, if you disagree in the slightest way with Leftist then you need to be marginalized or interned in a reeducation camp!

 

[Left Coast]

If a kid wants to "try out" gender roles, okay.

It's not about trying things out. It's about people being allowed to be authentically who they are.

But no hormones, no surgery. We don't let kids drive or drink alcohol or vote, right?

Talk about separate questions! Why no hormones or surgery? We allow children to take all kinds of different medications and also to have surgeries. Why does this category merit a special ban?

As for driving, we actually do allow minors to drive.

Again, it seems like two separate questions. Words could cause a person to be fired or ostracized. Those are harmful, but not violent, correct?

It seems like a weird semantic hill to die on to tell people how silly they are for saying words are violent but then going on about how they're "harmful." The same concepts are at play. At best you're nitpicking proper word usage, not the substance of what trans people and their allies are trying to explain to you when they say that discrimination hurts them.

As for pronouns, their extreme use is causing some people in society harm. Just ask Rob Hoogland.

From the highly biased right wing reporting on that case that I can sort through quickly, the harm that was caused to Mr. Hoogland was that he went to jail for violating a court order not to publicly discuss the case of his child's transition. So no, that's not an example of "pronouns" causing harm.

 

[icehorse]

@Yerda @mikkel_the_dane @Debater Slayer @9-10ths_Penguin @PureX @Guitar's Cry @Left Coast

First off @JDMS - thanks for your posts!

In western society, females have certain rights and privileges that they've fought long and hard for. And the sad reality is that men are bigger and stronger and often violent towards females. If we accept the claim that "a transwoman is a woman", the implications that we're seeing in the world are that some people will take advantage of that claim. We see transwomen unashamedly entering into women's sports competitions and demolishing their opponents. We see intact transwomen being lewd in women's bathrooms. We see newly-declared transwomen going to women's prisons. And so on.

We see women's rights and privileges being undone.

At the individual level, I can understand why a well-intentioned transwoman would want to be called a woman. But again, words have enormous power, and we see the power of words playing out.

One idea is to establish a new category for competitions. I've heard the idea that we should create an "open" category. Seems like a fine idea to me! Perhaps we should do the same with restrooms.

==

Another recurring question in this thread has been how to categorize the state of being trans. On the one hand, everyone is acknowledging that people who suspect they might be trans often receive lots of support and attention from therapists and doctors. But with that said, no one seems comfortable calling trans a disorder or a condition or whatever word we might typically use in situations when a person is getting professional help of this type. We can probably guess that the discomfort around naming what trans is, is seemingly well-intentioned. I get the concern about stigma.

At this point in the thread I don't believe I've heard any compelling arguments against the summary that:

"trans people do not feel comfortable with their bodies"

(I don't consider the question closed, so if you don't agree, let us know.)

I think that if we found doctors who were not aware of the political climate, and who were not aware of the history, to look at trans people, they would conclude that this is a mental disorder. So what?! The reality is that LOTS of people have mental disorders. Yes, we have to fight stigma and prejudice for people with mental disorders. Welcome to the club. LIFE IS NOT FAIR. If you think life ought to be fair, I would ask you to read a Kurt Vonnegut story that's maybe 50 or 60 years old, called "Harrison Bergeron".

Most of us don't get to be professional athletes. Or rock stars. Or artists. LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Many people are infertile. LIFE IS NOT FAIR!

==

On coercion: "trans" has been a hot topic for at least the last 5 years. Social media is a powerful, powerful force. It is often a vehicle for destructive propaganda. You dismiss the power of propaganda at your own peril. Teenagers are at a difficult time of life. Their natural hormones are raging. Their bodies are changing. Peer pressure is a huge force in their lives. Social media adds to the confusion. Add to that, that "trans" is also big, multi-BILLION dollar business. Do an internet search on it. The percentage of young people identifying as trans is exploding. Do you somehow imagine that they've all diagnosed themselves correctly?

Again, I'm NOT saying that these feelings should be ignored. Of course not. But I think we should be very leery of "solutions" that are irreversible. Even puberty blockers have long term side-effects.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

@Yerda @mikkel_the_dane @Debater Slayer @9-10ths_Penguin @PureX @Guitar's Cry @Left Coast

First off @JDMS - thanks for your posts!

In western society, females have certain rights and privileges that they've fought long and hard for. And the sad reality is that men are bigger and stronger and often violent towards females. If we accept the claim that "a transwoman is a woman", the implications that we're seeing in the world are that some people will take advantage of that claim. We see transwomen unashamedly entering into women's sports competitions and demolishing their opponents. We see intact transwomen being lewd in women's bathrooms. We see newly-declared transwomen going to women's prisons. And so on.

We see women's rights and privileges being undone.

At the individual level, I can understand why a well-intentioned transwoman would want to be called a woman. But again, words have enormous power, and we see the power of words playing out.

One idea is to establish a new category for competitions. I've heard the idea that we should create an "open" category. Seems like a fine idea to me! Perhaps we should do the same with restrooms.

==

Another recurring question in this thread has been how to categorize the state of being trans. On the one hand, everyone is acknowledging that people who suspect they might be trans often receive lots of support and attention from therapists and doctors. But with that said, no one seems comfortable calling trans a disorder or a condition or whatever word we might typically use in situations when a person is getting professional help of this type. We can probably guess that the discomfort around naming what trans is, is seemingly well-intentioned. I get the concern about stigma.

At this point in the thread I don't believe I've heard any compelling arguments against the summary that:

"trans people do not feel comfortable with their bodies"

(I don't consider the question closed, so if you don't agree, let us know.)

I think that if we found doctors who were not aware of the political climate, and who were not aware of the history, to look at trans people, they would conclude that this is a mental disorder. So what?! The reality is that LOTS of people have mental disorders. Yes, we have to fight stigma and prejudice for people with mental disorders. Welcome to the club. LIFE IS NOT FAIR. If you think life ought to be fair, I would ask you to read a Kurt Vonnegut story that's maybe 50 or 60 years old, called "Harrison Bergeron".

Most of us don't get to be professional athletes. Or rock stars. Or artists. LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Many people are infertile. LIFE IS NOT FAIR!

==

On coercion: "trans" has been a hot topic for at least the last 5 years. Social media is a powerful, powerful force. It is often a vehicle for destructive propaganda. You dismiss the power of propaganda at your own peril. Teenagers are at a difficult time of life. Their natural hormones are raging. Their bodies are changing. Peer pressure is a huge force in their lives. Social media adds to the confusion. Add to that, that "trans" is also big, multi-BILLION dollar business. Do an internet search on it. The percentage of young people identifying as trans is exploding. Do you somehow imagine that they've all diagnosed themselves correctly?

Again, I'm NOT saying that these feelings should be ignored. Of course not. But I think we should be very leery of "solutions" that are irreversible. Even puberty blockers have long term side-effects.

One step at a time.
Are there at least some genuine cases? Yes.
Now have you present any case, that as an absolute detracts all cases? No!

So here is what is happing in general.
We now try to figure out how a male to transwoman to woman works in practice.
Your arguments are that in some cases it will go wrong, therefore we shouldn't do it at all. That is in effect your sales pitch.
And here is the end game. We can't know all the end results, when we start, therefore we shouldn't start as such, because it can go wrong in some cases.

As for fair, that is not an absolute like gravity and some cases of fair are social constructs that can change.

So as an activists you as a non-one and I as one, we would get anywhere as long as you try to in effect sell that it is not perfect, therefore we shouldn't in the end accept some form of that a trans-woman is a woman.
That is it.

So long as you won't accept that even in principle as such, we can't make out the rest.

 

[Yerda]

In western society, females have certain rights and privileges that they've fought long and hard for. And the sad reality is that men are bigger and stronger and often violent towards females. If we accept the claim that "a transwoman is a woman", the implications that we're seeing in the world are that some people will take advantage of that claim. We see transwomen unashamedly entering into women's sports competitions and demolishing their opponents. We see intact transwomen being lewd in women's bathrooms. We see newly-declared transwomen going to women's prisons. And so on.

We see women's rights and privileges being undone.

Ok I have a few things I think are worth saying here.

I can agree that being born a male and transitioning might give someone an unfair advantage in sport. It is kind of weird to see you use this and then a few sentences later repeat "LIFE'S NOT FAIR!!" several times. I hope you can see that is inconsistent.

I don't believe women's rights and priveleges are being undone by trans people. Women tend to support trans issues at higher levels than men, which is telling. And surveys regularly put support from lesbians as the highest from any section of (UK) society.

I know women are losing access to contraception and abortion in many US states (and in many countries with conservative govts) but as far as I'm aware this is coming from the same people stirring up anti-trans hysteria and not from transpeople. The trans movement is, on the other hand, overwhelmingly in support of women's issues, including access to abortion, childcare, maternity (and paternity pay), closing the gender pay gap etc. Remember when we had that recent exchange about who is actually fighting the right and who is fighting alongside the right? Guess which side you're on again...

 

[JDMS]

@Yerda @mikkel_the_dane @Debater Slayer @9-10ths_Penguin @PureX @Guitar's Cry @Left Coast

First off @JDMS - thanks for your posts!

In western society, females have certain rights and privileges that they've fought long and hard for. And the sad reality is that men are bigger and stronger and often violent towards females. If we accept the claim that "a transwoman is a woman", the implications that we're seeing in the world are that some people will take advantage of that claim. We see transwomen unashamedly entering into women's sports competitions and demolishing their opponents. We see intact transwomen being lewd in women's bathrooms. We see newly-declared transwomen going to women's prisons. And so on.

We see women's rights and privileges being undone.

At the individual level, I can understand why a well-intentioned transwoman would want to be called a woman. But again, words have enormous power, and we see the power of words playing out.

One idea is to establish a new category for competitions. I've heard the idea that we should create an "open" category. Seems like a fine idea to me! Perhaps we should do the same with restrooms.

==

Another recurring question in this thread has been how to categorize the state of being trans. On the one hand, everyone is acknowledging that people who suspect they might be trans often receive lots of support and attention from therapists and doctors. But with that said, no one seems comfortable calling trans a disorder or a condition or whatever word we might typically use in situations when a person is getting professional help of this type. We can probably guess that the discomfort around naming what trans is, is seemingly well-intentioned. I get the concern about stigma.

At this point in the thread I don't believe I've heard any compelling arguments against the summary that:

"trans people do not feel comfortable with their bodies"

(I don't consider the question closed, so if you don't agree, let us know.)

I think that if we found doctors who were not aware of the political climate, and who were not aware of the history, to look at trans people, they would conclude that this is a mental disorder. So what?! The reality is that LOTS of people have mental disorders. Yes, we have to fight stigma and prejudice for people with mental disorders. Welcome to the club. LIFE IS NOT FAIR. If you think life ought to be fair, I would ask you to read a Kurt Vonnegut story that's maybe 50 or 60 years old, called "Harrison Bergeron".

Most of us don't get to be professional athletes. Or rock stars. Or artists. LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Many people are infertile. LIFE IS NOT FAIR!

==

On coercion: "trans" has been a hot topic for at least the last 5 years. Social media is a powerful, powerful force. It is often a vehicle for destructive propaganda. You dismiss the power of propaganda at your own peril. Teenagers are at a difficult time of life. Their natural hormones are raging. Their bodies are changing. Peer pressure is a huge force in their lives. Social media adds to the confusion. Add to that, that "trans" is also big, multi-BILLION dollar business. Do an internet search on it. The percentage of young people identifying as trans is exploding. Do you somehow imagine that they've all diagnosed themselves correctly?

Again, I'm NOT saying that these feelings should be ignored. Of course not. But I think we should be very leery of "solutions" that are irreversible. Even puberty blockers have long term side-effects.

I did not engage with you on any of the topics you just talked about for a reason. Please don't ping me on a post to talk about points I never brought up, just mention me on a separate post.

 

[PureX]

In western society, females have certain rights and privileges that they've fought long and hard for. And the sad reality is that men are bigger and stronger and often violent towards females. If we accept the claim that "a transwoman is a woman", the implications that we're seeing in the world are that some people will take advantage of that claim. We see transwomen unashamedly entering into women's sports competitions and demolishing their opponents. We see intact transwomen being lewd in women's bathrooms. We see newly-declared transwomen going to women's prisons. And so on.

The thing is, I don't think we're seeing any of this actually happening. I think the anti-trans fear-mongering media and their lying talking heads are constantly telling the idiots that tune into to them that these things are happening, because it keeps them tuning in for more because they are addicted to their own moral outrage, and because it justifies their bigotry.

We see women's rights and privileges being undone.

Yes, by the very same people that are telling you there is an epidemic of trans-bullies beating up little girls on soccer fields and in the girl's bathrooms all over America. When there aren't.

One idea is to establish a new category for competitions. I've heard the idea that we should create an "open" category. Seems like a fine idea to me! Perhaps we should do the same with restrooms.

These things will get worked out easily enough. It's not that difficult to do once we stop catastrophizing and moralizing and just make a few new accommodations.

 

[icehorse]

One step at a time.
Are there at least some genuine cases? Yes.
Now have you present any case, that as an absolute detracts all cases? No!

So here is what is happing in general.
We now try to figure out how a male to transwoman to woman works in practice.
Your arguments are that in some cases it will go wrong, therefore we shouldn't do it at all. That is in effect your sales pitch.
And here is the end game. We can't know all the end results, when we start, therefore we shouldn't start as such, because it can go wrong in some cases.

As for fair, that is not an absolute like gravity and some cases of fair are social constructs that can change.

So as an activists you as a non-one and I as one, we would get anywhere as long as you try to in effect sell that it is not perfect, therefore we shouldn't in the end accept some form of that a trans-woman is a woman.
That is it.

So long as you won't accept that even in principle as such, we can't make out the rest.

but i'm not saying that. I don't think you read my posts carefully

 

[SomeRandom]

Ok I have a few things I think are worth saying here.

I can agree that being born a male and transitioning might give someone an unfair advantage in sport. It is kind of weird to see you use this and then a few sentences later repeat "LIFE'S NOT FAIR!!" several times. I hope you can see that is inconsistent.

I don't believe women's rights and priveleges are being undone by trans people. Women tend to support trans issues at higher levels than men, which is telling. And surveys regularly put support from lesbians as the highest from any section of (UK) society.

I know women are losing access to contraception and abortion in many US states (and in many countries with conservative govts) but as far as I'm aware this is coming from the same people stirring up anti-trans hysteria and not from transpeople. The trans movement is, on the other hand, overwhelmingly in support of women's issues, including access to abortion, childcare, maternity (and paternity pay), closing the gender pay gap etc. Remember when we had that recent exchange about who is actually fighting the right and who is fighting alongside the right? Guess which side you're on again...

As a cis woman myself, (albeit one that isn’t exactly traditional) I’m always a little confused when people frame trans issues as counterintuitive or indeed as a competing resource to women’s rights and dignities. As if giving them rights somehow takes away from mine. How?
Trans individuals aren’t the ones who infamously overturned Roe V Wade.
Trans individuals aren’t the ones who protested against feminist causes.
(Well okay some may have but in general that wasn’t the case.)
Like I don’t see why I should even compete with a trans individual for rights and dignities in society. Why not extend it to both of us and call it a day?

 

[icehorse]

I can agree that being born a male and transitioning might give someone an unfair advantage in sport. It is kind of weird to see you use this and then a few sentences later repeat "LIFE'S NOT FAIR!!" several times. I hope you can see that is inconsistent.

I disagree that I'm being inconsistent on this point. Of course we strive to make things as fair as possible. All manner of competition uses this approach. But we cannot make everything fair.

Remember when we had that recent exchange about who is actually fighting the right and who is fighting alongside the right? Guess which side you're on again...

I fight dogma from whoever spews it.

I don't believe women's rights and priveleges are being undone by trans people.

Google it.

 

[icehorse]

The thing is, I don't think we're seeing any of this actually happening. I think the anti-trans fear-mongering media and their lying talking heads are constantly telling the idiots that tune into to them that these things are happening, because it keeps them tuning in for more because they are addicted to their own moral outrage, and because it justifies their bigotry.

I agree that most media is skewed. So google it.

 

[icehorse]

I did not engage with you on any of the topics you just talked about for a reason. Please don't ping me on a post to talk about points I never brought up, just mention me on a separate post.

I'm sorry. When I read your last post, I thought that some of what I said was in response.

 

[icehorse]

As if giving them rights somehow takes away from mine. How?

Didn't I just give a few examples a few posts back?

 

[Wandering Monk]

I don't know if "trans-moderate" is an accepted term or not?

But I'll take a whack at what it means to me.

A "trans-moderate":

- is empathetic towards people who have gender or body dysphoria
- supports the creation of public facilities for trans people
- supports the idea of "open" categories for competitions, sports and otherwise.
- supports ADULTS who chose to modify their bodies
- supports fair treatment for trans people

- DOES NOT agree that therapists should "affirm" anything. That's not therapy
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be told how to identify
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be subjected to surgeries or homones
- DOES NOT agree that trans-women are women
- DOES NOT agree that sex is a social construct
- DOES NOT agree that differences in opinion on these matters is violence
- DOES NOT agree that arbitrarily declared pronouns are harmless

Activists of ANY movement have little tolerance for moderates.

 

[icehorse]

Several times on this thread it's been implied that I'm not a liberal.

I would say that I lean liberal, but that I'm opposed to dogma from wherever it might come.

I'm going to re-post from a different thread a few days back:

==

Well I think I'm a liberal:

In no particular order, I believe in: free speech, protecting the environment, universal health care, taxing the rich, reversing the income and wealth gaps, strong social security, massive cuts to our "defense" budgets, universal childcare, raising the minimum wage, equal pay for equal work, massive improvements to our education system (including much stronger support for teachers), a strong separation of church and state, ending and reversing the incarceration of non-violent drug offenders, relaxing most drug laws, marriage equality for all, pro-choice, much stronger restrictions on guns, prosecuting white collar thieves (e.g. bankers who default, Wall Streeters...), rebuilding and maintaining our infrastructure...

I probably forgot a few things.

But I think the following are bad ideas:

- Pursuing equity, rather than equality
- Affirmative action, rather than merit
- Identity politics, rather than finding common ground
- Ibram X. Kendi, rather than MLK
- Trans-women on International Women's Day
- Debate, rather than dogma

==

What I find telling is that it's soooo predictable that I'd be called right-wing whenever I don't buy radical left talking points hook. line, and sinker.

Watch your dogma!

 

[SomeRandom]

Didn't I just give a few examples a few posts back?

Apologies but I didn’t see any concrete ones.

Allowing a trans person to use the bathroom of their identity doesn’t magically take away my ability to. And lewdness can occur among people in general, regardless of trans identity or lack thereof. Dunno, this seems like fear monger-y stuff. They said the same thing about gay people.

Allowing trans participation in sports is no doubt complex as an issue. But I already said that I ultimately don’t care either way. Nor does it hamper my ability to participate in sports if I choose

Having someone transition in prison move to another branch, again doesn’t take away my ability to be in a lockup of my identity. If I go to jail, presumably. Transitioning in jail has its own laundry lists of nuances and issues. So I say good luck to any trans folks in prison. They’re gonna need it

Or did I misunderstand you?

 

[Yerda]

First off, let me apologise. I know that you're not a closet fash or anything. I'm sure you've given this lots of thought.

I disagree that I'm being inconsistent on this point. Of course we strive to make things as fair as possible. All manner of competition uses this approach. But we cannot make everything fair.

Trans women in sport might have an unfair advantage and we can both agree that we don't want that. I suppose I thought you weren't arguing in good faith since you said LIFE'S NOT FAIR several times.

Perhaps we can both agree that fairness is good but not the only consideration that we might have.

I fight dogma from whoever spews it.

I'm glad to hear it.

Would you accept that it might appear to others that you're being a little dogmatic by arguing againsts the findings and recommendations of the medical profession when they don't agree with your opinion?

Or that you think people who disagree with you are dangerous extremists?

Google it.

I can't find examples of women's rights being eroded by trans people.

A weird thing that I am seeing more often is cis gendered women being challenged and harrassed by angry gender critical men and women when they are mistaken for being trans. And of course reports of growing harrassment and assaults on trans people.

Do you see anything of worth in the opinion that concern and hostility to trans people seems to be manufactured by right wing politicans and press (and dark money funded group), and that the right wing politicians and press (and dark money funded groups) are at the same time attempting to erode rights women fought for?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I would say that I lean liberal, but that I'm opposed to dogma from wherever it might come.

I think discarding medical consensus in favor of ideological positions is arguably a dogmatic position. Being human, we're all prone to such errors in reasoning, but recognizing this seems crucial to me instead of embracing it even further.

What I find telling is that it's soooo predictable that I'd be called right-wing whenever I don't buy radical left talking points hook. line, and sinker.

The points you've objected to in this thread aren't remotely "radical left talking points"; they're either established positions of medical professionals or accommodations that cisgendered people already have but are supposedly "radical" when also extended to trans people (e.g., correct usage of pronouns).