Do trans-activists allow for trans-moderates?

[icehorse]

Okay, but realize what you are saying -- your body is who you are, your mind just an adjunct, which, if it doesn't fit, must be wrong. Consider the implications of that.

Well as an aside, I think the body and mind are a single system.

Sometimes a body part has an issue. sometimes a mind has an issue. They're still parts of the same system.

So generally there are physical disorders and mental disorders.

But from what I can gather on this thread trans is a thing that frequently requires a lot of professional intervention, but it's also somehow uncategorizable.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Surgery and hormones cannot change the DNA in the cells of our bodies.

Is that how you measure gender?

Do you get a DNA test from someone before deciding what pronouns to use for them?

 

[icehorse]

This isn't a moderate position in any sense of the word.

So, would you say that the claim that "a transwoman is a woman" is a moderate claim?

 

[SomeRandom]

Well as an aside, I think the body and mind are a single system.

Sometimes a body part has an issue. sometimes a mind has an issue. They're still parts of the same system.

So generally there are physical disorders and mental disorders.

But from what I can gather on this thread trans is a thing that frequently requires a lot of professional intervention, but it's also somehow uncategorizable.

To be fair, we actually lost a lot of scientific research into the phenomenon back in the Nazi book burnings
Not even kidding, the Nazis literally burned a lot of research into the phenomenon that institutions were involved with at the time. German institutions, I mean

And as I understand it (I’m no expert by any means) there is data to suggest that the trans female brain has far more in common with a cis female brain than the opposite. If that makes sense?
Though the data is rather limited right now

Holocaust Memorial Day Trust | 6 May 1933: Looting of the Institute of Sexology

On 6 May 1933, the Institute of Sexology, an academic foundation devoted to sexological research and the advocacy of homosexual rights, was broken into and occupied by Nazi-supporting youth. Several days later the entire contents of the library were removed and burned.

www.hmd.org.uk

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity - PMC

Transgender people report discomfort with their birth sex and a strong identification with the opposite sex. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth sex or ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[icehorse]

Is that how you measure gender?

Do you get a DNA test from someone before deciding what pronouns to use for them?

we were debating sex, not gender

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is that how you measure gender?

Do you get a DNA test from someone before deciding what pronouns to use for them?

Ah. So the DNA test is for you to decide what sex a person is, then?

 

[icehorse]

And as I understand it (I’m no expert by any means) there is data to suggest that the trans female brain has far more in common with a cis female brain than the opposite. If that makes sense?

Let's say that's true.

So what's the next step.. ?

 

[icehorse]

Ah. So the DNA test is for you to decide what sex a person is, then?

yup - with rare exceptions.

 

[SomeRandom]

Let's say that's true.

So what's the next step.. ?

According to medical science (which, as a layman, I defer to) gender affirming care is required to ensure happiness and fulfilment of the individual. And if we both agree that our relevant country is a free nation, should that not be an agreed upon option?

People are free to live however they please. In whatever way makes them happy. Such is freedom

Surgery for minors is only really recommended by medical professionals in dire circumstances, requiring actual medical intervention

Though I will admit that society does seem to want to allow some minors aged 16 and above full legal rights over themselves. So that may well be an option looked at and discussed by society moving forward

 

[icehorse]

According to medical science (which, as a layman, I defer to) gender affirming care is required to ensure happiness and fulfilment of the individual

Wait, I'm sorry. How did we get here from the cis-brain idea you brought up a few posts back?

And now we're back to, if we need to provide gender affirming care, what situation are we caring for?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Perhaps you misrepresent your own views.
That's how it often seems.

To you, I guess. If you jump to conclusions or make assumptions without asking when unsure about something, you're going to run into a lot of communication issues with some people. Not much I can do about that.

And your post #47 misrepresented the other poster,
albeit with claims so ambiguous, no one would be
able to pin you down to any particular claim.

Everyone is always free to point out if they believe another member's understanding of any of their posts didn't accurately represent their position. I do it quite often when I believe your posts don't accurately reflect my position on something, for instance.

That said, I've given post #47 further thought, and I see that my initial response to it didn't apply to it. I've added an edit accordingly.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I don't know about the whole world; it was a big step forward for the US, although it does have a lot of flaws (in my opinion) and shouldn't be copied in other countries without significant modifications, if at all.

I think it was a more general step forwards in terms of codified rights.
Some people act like it's just a US thing, and some act like it was the first example of such a thing, but I'd push back on both views.

It's certainly not perfect, but perfect isn't a thing. Never let it stand in the way of good!

 

[SomeRandom]

Wait, I'm sorry. How did we get here from the cis-brain idea you brought up a few posts back?

And now we're back to, if we need to provide gender affirming care, what situation are we caring for?

Sorry I thought you asked me what the next step was, meaning the next step in assuming a person is born with a brain that is apparently not the same gender as they were born as
(You responded to a post of mine citing the phenomenon of a trans brain having more in common with the brain of the opposite gender vs a cis brain. If that makes sense?)

 

[We Never Know]

According to medical science (which, as a layman, I defer to) gender affirming care is required to ensure happiness and fulfilment of the individual. And if we both agree that our relevant country is a free nation, should that not be an agreed upon option?

People are free to live however they please. In whatever way makes them happy. Such is freedom

Surgery for minors is only really recommended by medical professionals in dire circumstances, requiring actual medical intervention

Though I will admit that society does seem to want to allow some minors aged 16 and above full legal rights over themselves. So that may well be an option looked at and discussed by society moving forward

"According to medical science (which, as a layman, I defer to) gender affirming care is required to ensure happiness and fulfilment of the individual."

Does taking female hormones and dressing like a female(but still having male parts) ensure happiness and fulfilment of the individual?

 

[SomeRandom]

"According to medical science (which, as a layman, I defer to) gender affirming care is required to ensure happiness and fulfilment of the individual."

Does taking female hormones and dressing like a female(but still having male parts) ensure happiness and fulfilment of the individual?

According to the studies, provided the person is born trans.
Granted I’m not a trans individual myself. But I sincerely don’t care what a person does to achieve personal happiness. That’s not really any of my business.
Do you like prying into the personal lives of other people like some kind of jerky busybody?

 

[We Never Know]

According to the studies, provided the person is born trans.
Granted I’m not a trans individual myself. But I sincerely don’t care what a person does to achieve personal happiness. That’s not really any of my business.
Do you like prying into the personal lives of other people like some kind of jerky busybody?

I'm still trying to figure out how a male can "feel" like a female, take hormone therapy to try be a female, dress like a female but still have balls and a penis, which isnt feminine, and be happy.

 

[We Never Know]

According to the studies, provided the person is born trans.
Granted I’m not a trans individual myself. But I sincerely don’t care what a person does to achieve personal happiness. That’s not really any of my business.
Do you like prying into the personal lives of other people like some kind of jerky busybody?

"Do you like prying into the personal lives of other people like some kind of jerky busybody"

Isn't that the topic of discussion?

 

[Nakosis]

The odds of various forms of coercion are extremely high.

Ok, so here is the thing.
I don't like the idea of kids under the age of 18 undergoing any of hormone therapy or surgery. I don't think kids are mature enough to make this decision for themselves.

However if the parents also feel this is the best course for their kids, I don't think we should get involved in that. The parents rights to raise their children I believe out-weighs my personal objections. Unless the state finds the need to legally step in for the benefit of the child.

Parents have been screwing up their kids for thousands of years. I see it as a basic right unless of course the state can justify a need to step in.

Otherwise yes no non-parental adults should be encouraging hormone/surgical treatments without the parents expressed consent.

Again I personally don't agree with it but feel parental rights take priority over my objections.

 

[SomeRandom]

"Do you like prying into the personal lives of other people like some kind of jerky busybody"

Isn't that the topic of discussion?

Ahh this is true lol
I guess we’re all busybodies, eh?

 

[We Never Know]

Ahh this is true lol
I guess we’re all busybodies, eh?

Maybe you are. I'm just going with the flow lol