Do trans-activists allow for trans-moderates?

[SomeRandom]

As one example, I would say the claim is at the foundation of transwomen being allowed to compete in women's sports or use women's restrooms.

I’m a little undecided about women’s sports with regards to trans individuals.
Possibly due to me not caring a whole lot, truth be told. Sorry, I just don’t

With regards to restrooms, I would prefer trans women use the ladies rooms. I mean I’ve likely shared the room with many trans folks over the years without knowing. Also putting extra scrutiny on who can use the restroom just hurts cis women who don’t fit into the traditional expectations of western Femininity. I’ve known many a cis woman who were far more masculine presenting than even some trans women so I mean it really isn’t any of my business
Besides have you seen some trans men? They have beards for crying out loud. I’d prefer they use the mens!

As to defending it, I think I would have to largely rely on context.
I heard similar complaints lobbied at the gay community during my country’s same sex marriage debate (and from anti gay preachers from the states, if I’m honest.)
Funny that.
A lot of the time it really just turned out to be largely inconsequential things. Don’t be an overt jerk to gay people was one of the more frequent actual demands made by the community. Some were a bit odd and some were dumb. I think I remember hearing someone demand that society ban skittles or something. It was some dumb post online, so I can’t say for certain that it was an actual thought or just someone trolling
But there are going to be “weirdos” in every group of humans you conjure up so eh

 

[Debater Slayer]

Surgery and hormones cannot change the DNA in the cells of our bodies.

I don't know how that matters or changes the benefits of sex reassignment surgery for some individuals.

Okay then, of the many definitions of trans that exist, which are the ones you are using in this conversation?

The ones listed on the websites of the numerous numerous major medical organizations that both of us can access. I've already cited one of them.

Why would calling it a disorder hurt the quality of care?

Because it is, at this point in time, not a position endorsed by a majority of actual medical professionals and is also a common way of shifting the focus of discussions about trans people to any of numerous unevidenced and dubious "fixes" for the supposed "disorder." In some contexts, it reminds me of the attempts to cast homosexuality as a disorder to facilitate arguments for banning same-sex marriage and punishing homosexuals instead of treating them as equal humans.

You're leaning heavily on the medical profession, and while I think we should all be a bit cautious in that regard, if it's not a disorder, then why do doctors have to deal with it at all? If not "disorder", how do doctors categorize it? A condition? We don't bring doctors into a situation when a person is healthy, correct? So again, what category does trans fall in to?

Gender dysphoria is the experience of distress due to the mismatch between one's gender identity and biological sex. As for why it's not a disorder, this may be useful here:

The presence of gender variance is not the pathology but dysphoria is from the distress caused by the body and mind not aligning and/or societal marginalization of gender-variant people. It needs to be ego-dystonic to qualify as a diagnosis and having a discussion with our patients about the diagnosis prior to charting it is necessary and good care.

The DSM–5 articulates explicitly that “gender non-conformity is not in itself a mental disorder.” The 5th edition also includes a separate “gender dysphoria in children” diagnosis and for the first time allows the diagnosis to be given to individuals with disorders of sex development (DSD). DSM–5 also includes the optional “post-transition” specifier to indicate when a particular individual’s gender transition is complete. In this “post-transition” case, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria would no longer apply but the individual may still need ongoing medical care (e.g., hormonal treatment).

Gender Dysphoria Diagnosis

The history and differential associated with gender dysphoria.

www.psychiatry.org

I lean on the medical profession for my own health issues as well. What else am I supposed to lean on when it comes to health care? Homeopathy? Programming? Civil engineering? This is not some novel or radical approach; the only thing I'm doing is treating trans people's healthcare matters the same way I treat everyone else's: by deferring to qualified medical professionals.

Zooming way out, I often offer up a challenge to the world: "Name a societal ill that isn't caused by or exacerbated by oligarchs / kleptocrats."

It's important to notice that I can defend this claim without ever having to employ a conspiracy theory. So when I suspect profiteering is happening (which I do), that in no way means I believe there is a conspiracy. There are millions of pick-pockets in the world, do you suspect them of conspiring?

But for the sake of discussion, let's say that no profiteering is happening.

I see no reason to base my beliefs on those assumptions unless there's evidence that such an extremely large-scale coordination is happening for the sake of "profiteering" within the many medical organizations that hold the positions I've cited here.

Let me reiterate a previous question: what does "sex assigned at birth" mean? It would appear to be an attempt to cast doubt on biology?

It means the classification of an infant's sex by a doctor.

 

[Callisto]

Because our society is built on trust and logic. Language is how we communicate with each other and it's a major vehicle for furthering trust. The word "woman" is a fundamental word in our language. It's central and primary. When you claim that "a trans woman is a woman" you are attempting to unilaterally undo society-wide, agreed upon meanings.

Doing so also ignores the indelible fact that a person is either a biological male or female. Medical transition does not somehow reformat the individual's composition which was established long before they were born and for which it's irrelevant whether they later experience dysphoria.

While it's all well and good to talk about social acceptance and letting people present how they want, the reality of biology is always in the background.

 

[Stevicus]

Trans-cendent, you may say?

Only if you're on a trans-mission from God.

 

[We Never Know]

In the old English (and I mean actual old English not Shakepeare lol) the term was Wifman or Wimmin. The meaning was basically wife man, since women historically speaking, weren’t always considered fleshed out individuals by society. Instead they were considered merely the property of men, you are aware of this, yea?

If I recall my English class correctly we have the Norse to thank for the English word “Woman” in its modern sense. I think it also comes from a German root word, but don’t quote me on that

As society struggled with and then eventually accepted that women were actual human beings with their own unique thoughts, feelings and identities, so too did the meaning of the term evolve to keep up. And lo and behold, society has yet to collapse

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1995/11/24/that-was-no-woman-that-was-my-wife-person/d7e63499-be91-41d4-943c-93599f647472/#

I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant the word woman didn't always describe a female throughout the centuries.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well I would not categorize gay and trans the same way.

I would say that only mis-guided extremists think that gay is something to be fixed.

But what I'm hearing over and over again in this thread and in the world, is that trans people need professional interventions.

Then you are picking and choosing, but being discriminatory in doing so.

As a gay man, I do not need to be "fixed" because I can satisfy my sexual and romantic inclinations with perfect ease. Being "homosexual" means being one gender and attracted to that same gender. The "homo" comes from the Greek for "same," not the Latin for "man." My mind and my body (and my partner's mind and body) work in perfect harmony allowing us to be who we think we are.

How does a trans person accomplish that? Try to grasp the idea of feeling, believing -- no knowing -- that you are one gender, while equipped below your shoulders (where your mind/brain aren't) as if you were the other. What do you do? Just try asking yourself -- not anybody else, not me, not a trans person, just yourself -- that simple question.

 

[SomeRandom]

I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant the word woman didn't always describe a female throughout the centuries.

Oh, I see. Fair enough, I can see how you would come to that conclusion

 

[We Never Know]

Then you are picking and choosing, but being discriminatory in doing so.

As a gay man, I do not need to be "fixed" because I can satisfy my sexual and romantic inclinations with perfect ease. Being "homosexual" means being one gender and attracted to that same gender. The "homo" comes from the Greek for "same," not the Latin for "man." My mind and my body (and my partner's mind and body) work in perfect harmony allowing us to be who we think we are.

How does a trans person accomplish that? Try to grasp the idea of feeling, believing -- no knowing -- that you are one gender, while equipped below your shoulders (where your mind/brain aren't) as if you were the other. What do you do? Just try asking yourself -- not anybody else, not me, not a trans person, just yourself -- that simple question.

The greek word is "homos" isnt it?

 

[icehorse]

I don't know how that matters or changes the benefits of sex reassignment surgery for some individuals.

Because those procedures do NOT change a person's sex. Sex is baked into every cell in our bodies.

Words have power, do you agree with that?

So these definitions are playing fast and loose with fundamental words like "sex" and "woman". If you say sex can be "reassigned" you're making a HUGE claim, and you're probably abetting a plan to decree new definitions.

Why do you think trans-activists make the claim that "transwomen are women"? Because there is power in words. Why not simply say some people are transwomen and just leave it at that? Some people are left handed, some people are dyslexic. (Or lysdexic as I like to say )

you quoted:
The presence of gender variance is not the pathology but dysphoria is from the distress caused by the body and mind not aligning and/or societal marginalization of gender-variant people. It needs to be ego-dystonic to qualify as a diagnosis and having a discussion with our patients about the diagnosis prior to charting it is necessary and good care.

The DSM–5 articulates explicitly that “gender non-conformity is not in itself a mental disorder.” The 5th edition also includes a separate “gender dysphoria in children” diagnosis and for the first time allows the diagnosis to be given to individuals with disorders of sex development (DSD). DSM–5 also includes the optional “post-transition” specifier to indicate when a particular individual’s gender transition is complete. In this “post-transition” case, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria would no longer apply but the individual may still need ongoing medical care (e.g., hormonal treatment).

I get that they're trying to destigmatize, that's good!

But notice how they dance around the definitions. If the "presence of gender variance is not the pathology" then what is?

Or are we saying it's not pathological? So why bring the word into the definition? And what kinds of things do doctors diagnose if not diseases or disorders or pathologies or conditions.

It sure seems like doctors are spending a lot of time with trans people and bending over backwards to be politically correct about why they're involved..

 

[SomeRandom]

The greek word is actually "homos"

Sorry, couldn’t resist lol

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The greek word is actually "homos"

Yes, I know that...at my age it should be no surprise that I studied both Latin and Greek. I was aiming for simplicity in my post. In English, we drop the "s" so that you wind up with things like "homonym," "homophone," "homologue," and "homocentric." The last being the only Latin use.

But thank you for your effort to make me appear smaller...

 

[We Never Know]

View attachment 78181

Homo is a Latin word that means man, or human. When it is used as a prefix, as in "homosexual," it comes from the Greek word homos, meaning the same.

Homo - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

The genus that includes modern humans is called Homo. "Homo sapiens" are modern humans. Our ancestors had names like "Homo neanderthalensis" and "Homo erectus."

www.vocabulary.com

 

[SomeRandom]

Homo is a Latin word that means man, or human. When it is used as a prefix, as in "homosexual," it comes from the Greek word homos, meaning the same.

Homo - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

The genus that includes modern humans is called Homo. "Homo sapiens" are modern humans. Our ancestors had names like "Homo neanderthalensis" and "Homo erectus."

www.vocabulary.com

I know. I was just being juvenile lol

 

[We Never Know]

Yes, I know that...at my age it should be no surprise that I studied both Latin and Greek. I was aiming for simplicity in my post.

But thank you for your effort to make me appear smaller...

My post wasn't meant in a negative way.

 

[Revoltingest]

I also sometimes find it tedious when I end up having to clarify every other point I make or pointing out that some inference or another is a misrepresentation of what I actually said.

Perhaps you misrepresent your own views.
That's how it often seems.
And your post #47 misrepresented the other poster,
albeit with claims so ambiguous, no one would be
able to pin you down to any particular claim.

 

[icehorse]

How does a trans person accomplish that? Try to grasp the idea of feeling, believing -- no knowing -- that you are one gender, while equipped below your shoulders (where your mind/brain aren't) as if you were the other. What do you do? Just try asking yourself -- not anybody else, not me, not a trans person, just yourself -- that simple question.

From a distance, it sure sounds like a mental disorder. I get that people don't want to call it a disorder (out of compassion?). But I'm not convinced that that's really truly compassionate. Do we tell psychopaths they don't have a disorder. We all end up with disorders at some point.

There are people who want to cut off a limb. Is that a disorder?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

From a distance, it sure sounds like a mental disorder. I get that people don't want to call it a disorder (out of compassion?). But I'm not convinced that that's really truly compassionate. Do we tell psychopaths they don't have a disorder. We all end up with disorders at some point.

There are people who want to cut off a limb. Is that a disorder?

Okay, but realize what you are saying -- your body is who you are, your mind just an adjunct, which, if it doesn't fit, must be wrong. Consider the implications of that.

 

[Callisto]

In English, we drop the "s" so that you wind up with things like "homonym," "homophone," "homologue," and "homocentric."

And my personal favorite ....

 

[We Never Know]

From a distance, it sure sounds like a mental disorder. I get that people don't want to call it a disorder (out of compassion?). But I'm not convinced that that's really truly compassionate. Do we tell psychopaths they don't have a disorder. We all end up with disorders at some point.

There are people who want to cut off a limb. Is that a disorder?

Yes a transabled person is said to have a mental disorder. Transabled falls under the Body Integrity Identity Disorder umbrella.

Transabled: A neurological issue or a mental disorder? - NZ Herald

Meet the non-disabled people choosing to live their lives as if they were disabled

www-nzherald-co-nz.cdn.ampproject.org

Body integrity dysphoria - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know if "trans-moderate" is an accepted term or not?

But I'll take a whack at what it means to me.

A "trans-moderate":

- is empathetic towards people who have gender or body dysphoria
- supports the creation of public facilities for trans people
- supports the idea of "open" categories for competitions, sports and otherwise.
- supports ADULTS who chose to modify their bodies
- supports fair treatment for trans people

- DOES NOT agree that therapists should "affirm" anything. That's not therapy
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be told how to identify
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be subjected to surgeries or homones
- DOES NOT agree that trans-women are women
- DOES NOT agree that sex is a social construct
- DOES NOT agree that differences in opinion on these matters is violence
- DOES NOT agree that arbitrarily declared pronouns are harmless

This isn't a moderate position in any sense of the word.