Do we really have free will?

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps comfort with your situation, perhaps its just to much hassle and i can't be bothered, procrastination comes from various places.

The way I find is useful is set your mind to it, set a date and make it happen.

That might work for some things, but I don't think it works for every decision. Usually when I cannot decide to do something there is a reason I cannot decide and by waiting instead of acting I averted a mistake I could have made. I can think of many examples of this.

 

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps you are a careful planner who has a routine that's really important to you. And the change doesn't fit just yet into your plans.

No, I am not a planner at all. I got married three weeks after I met my husband and now I cannot even plan for my own retirement! I come up with ideas about what I need to do in my head and I do what I need to do each day but I never plan anything.

Or perhaps you are so caught up in God's will, that you have no time for your own will.
People get caught up in doing the demands of some other will, and they end up not doing anything their own will.

That is true. I am so caught in what 'I believe' is God's' will for me that I have no time for what I might otherwise want to do.

Or maybe the change isn't fully worked out yet, and you are in limbo about it. You haven't come to a full decision for other reasons.

That is also true, I am in limbo, and I cannot come to a decision because there are so many factors involved in what the decision would entail. Unless I am prepared to deal with what would be involved I do not think it is wise to make any big life changes. Knowing myself and what I am capable of is more than half the battle.

 

[Trailblazer]

Interesting. So, will God be as surprised as us when we die?

I do not believe that God will be surprised at all, because God is all-knowing, which means that God knows everything as if it has already happened, even though it has not yet happened in this world.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

 

[Trailblazer]

If you have no free will, then you can not make any choices, right?
So you have never chosen what to have for dinner?
Or what outfit to wear?
Or who to be around, or who to kiss, marry?

Do you believe your inability to make a decision is representative of the whole population?

It is obvious to me that I have free will, that everyone has free will, because without free will I could not make any choices. Just because I cannot make certain choices I might think I should make does not mean I cannot make those choices. The key is to know what choices I have available to me and what is the best choice to make at any given moment. I won't always make the best choice, but that's life. We all make mistakes and then we move on.

No, I do not think that my inability to make a decision is representative of the whole population, and I do make decisions when I think the time is right. I seem to know when that time is right and when it is not. Had I acted on impulse and evicted my tenant I would not be getting the $18,000 in rental assistance, I would be out all that money. They added three more months they will be paying since I last posted you, so the rent will be paid up through the end of August.

 

[Trailblazer]

Even removing the concept of a deity from the equation, what makes anyone think freewill exists?

I'd say I believe in the limitation of both free experience, and free will.

I do not believe that we are free to do “anything” we want to do.

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

If we add God to the equation and say that everything we do has been predetermined by God, then we are saying we are merely puppets on a string, God's pre-programmed robots.

 

[Trailblazer]

Deut 30:19,

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:​

Josh 24:15,

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.​

Judg 10:14,

Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation.​

There are many other verses that indicate we choose. Jesus had a choice to die on the cross or not. He didn't particularly want to die, but he chose to ignore his desire and follow that of his Father, Yahweh.

Luke 22:42,

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
​

I like to look at life as follows:

1) The devil is always voting against us
2) God is always voting for us

So far, the election is tied, 1 for and 1 against. Who breaks the tie?​

3) We each cast our own vote to break the tie. We are free to side with either the devil of God.

It always amuses me when people blame God for killing an innocent person (as though there is such a person - another discussion there). What do they think the devil does with his time? Sit around and watch God cause all kinds of problems and then laugh about it?

As far as being stuck, I wouldn't worry about it. Lot's of Bible characters were "stuck" for many years. Moses didn't do anything of importance until he was 80 years old. Paul went off for 3 years after meeting Jesus. Only after that did he return to Jerusalem and begin his ministry. There are other examples.

In any case, this life doesn't always go the way we might want it to go. The devil is pretty sly and tricks all of us every day. We just have to try the best we can, be patient and wait for Jesus to set up a better reality on the new earth.

God gave dominion to man in Genesis 1:26. They in turn transferred it to the devil. When Jesus was tempted in the desert, he didn't argue with the devil when the devil told Jesus he held the power of this world. Jesus knew this world is ruled by the devil. God is most definitely NOT in control. Does this world look like a place run by God who is love, who is light? Doesn't seem like much of a loving place to me. Unless of course, we like wars, famines, droughts, disease, etc.

Thanks, that was very helpful even though I do not believe there is a devil. I believe that the devil is symbolic for the lower selfish nature of man.

 

[Trailblazer]

i think I can remember back to a specific example of that, but In that case another person did something to drastically change my mind about a course of action.

so I wonder if God can control people directly, indirectly, or both?

I think God can do both, because God is all-powerful and everything is in the grasp of His Will.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

I believe that God works through people who He places in our lives at just the right moments. I have experienced many examples of this.

 

[McBell]

It is obvious to me that I have free will, that everyone has free will, because without free will I could not make any choices. Just because I cannot make certain choices I might think I should make does not mean I cannot make those choices. The key is to know what choices I have available to me and what is the best choice to make at any given moment. I won't always make the best choice, but that's life. We all make mistakes and then we move on.

Seems to me that that is all we can do...

No, I do not think that my inability to make a decision is representative of the whole population,

Why not?
I certainly do.

I mean, I do not for a second believe that the inability to make a decision is some rare, exclusive "condition" (for lack of a better term) that is almost unheard of in the world today, or yesterday, or ever really.

and I do make decisions when I think the time is right.

That is the trick, isn't it?
Knowing the right time to make the desicion.

I seem to know when that time is right and when it is not. Had I acted on impulse and evicted my tenant I would not be getting the $18,000 in rental assistance, I would be out all that money. They added three more months they will be paying since I last posted you, so the rent will be paid up through the end of August.

I am certainly glad to hear you are not out all that rent.

 

[rrobs]

Thanks, that was very helpful even though I do not believe there is a devil. I believe that the devil is symbolic for the lower selfish nature of man.

Maybe there's not much difference between our lower selfish nature and the devil's lower selfish nature. Jesus fixed that so we can now have a divine nature [2 Peter 1:4) in addition to the old nature. You've probable read about the "new man" vs the "old man" in Paul's letters.Christ in you (Col 1:27) is the "new man." Ephesians 4:24 says it is created in righteousness and holiness. Ephesians 2:10 says it is God's creation. All that and more because Jesus loved enough to lay down his life so sinners could be made into the new creations.

I understand you probably don't believe all that, but at least that's what the book claims. You'll notice none of the verses require interpretation. Pretty straightforward, just like the newspaper (most of the time anyway )

Take care

 

[Neuropteron]

I do not think I have the free will to change much of anything in my life yet I feel like I need to change many things.

because I am doing what God has willed/scripted for me,

One thing I know is that I cannot make myself do things to change my situation even though I am somewhat unhappy with the way certain things are.

I am also physically fit and mentally capable, so that’s not it either.

I do not think I have the free will to change much of anything in my life yet I feel like I need to change many things. But I cannot seem to change them.

Hi,

There are two possible reason for an inability to make decisions. (there are more reasons).

One is called "DPD" inability to make independent decisions
Dependent Personality Disorder

Another is Analysis paralysis (or paralysis by analysis) describes an individual or group process when over-analyzing a situation can cause forward motion or decision-making to become "paralyzed", meaning that no solution or course of action is decided upon.
Analysis paralysis - Wikipedia.

Those 2 examples might not be your reason for indecision. However I think that they do show that indecision is not proof of God scripting our lives.

These examples can affect a person regardless of physical or mental fitness.

I cannot help to wonder how or in what fashion God has conveyed the information that your life is scripted. A letter? some sort of revelation?

The message that He gives us in his word is that we have the gift of free will and are accountable for making our own decision.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you think we have free will to make choices or do you think that fate/God is controlling everything we do? In other words, can we make our own choices or is everything we will ever do already been decided upon by God and we are just acting out what has been written on the Tablet of Fate? Are we all just actors in a movie that God has scripted?

I ask this because I do not think I have the free will to change much of anything in my life yet I feel like I need to change many things. But I cannot seem to change them. I am very strong willed person so whenever I set out to do something it gets done, but I cannot seem to make up my mind to do certain things and do them, so I feel stuck in a lifestyle I do not like.

Maybe I am stuck because it is not meant to be that I change anything right now, because I am doing what God has willed/scripted for me, or maybe I should be doing these things. One thing I know is that I cannot make myself do things to change my situation even though I am somewhat unhappy with the way certain things are.

This has nothing to do with money because I have plenty of money, much more than I could ever spend in my lifetime, even if I never worked one more day of my life. Time is an issue since there is only so much time, but why can’t I decide to take the time to do things that I feel I need to do? I am not a lazy person, anything but, so that is not the reason. I am also physically fit and mentally capable, so that’s not it either.

I believe almost or perhaps even totally we have no free will. Things are predetermined, and we are predetermined as well.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are two possible reason for an inability to make decisions. (there are more reasons).

I cannot help to wonder how or in what fashion God has conveyed the information that your life is scripted. A letter? some sort of revelation?

The message that He gives us in his word is that we have the gift of free will and are accountable for making our own decision.

I am not saying that I believe that my life is scripted.
I am not saying that I believe I have no free will.
I can make decisions that need to be made as I go through life.

There are many reasons why a person would have an inability to make decisions. One reason is that there is no decision that needs to be made at the time and that making a decision to make a life change is just not the best thing to do at the time.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe almost or perhaps even totally we have no free will. Things are predetermined, and we are predetermined as well.

Can you elaborate on why you believe that and support that with Baha'i Writings?

 

[Truthseeker]

I believe almost or perhaps even totally we have no free will. Things are predetermined, and we are predetermined as well.

Why do you think so?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why not?
I certainly do.

I mean, I do not for a second believe that the inability to make a decision is some rare, exclusive "condition" (for lack of a better term) that is almost unheard of in the world today, or yesterday, or ever really.

That is what I was trying to say. Lots of people have a hard time making decisions, not just me.

That is the trick, isn't it?
Knowing the right time to make the decision.

Yes, that's it, and knowing what decision to make.

I am certainly glad to hear you are not out all that rent.

Thanks, so am I!

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I think a neither limited or maximum free will exists. Why I like not thinking the gods are very much involved in any of this though, is because if they're heavily involved, they're to blame for not doing more for people.

Now in the case of the gods not intervening almost at all.... while it could seem weird, I have some analogies in which people would rather not be governed in some contexts or governed closely even in cases where there might be benefits to being governed. And perhaps the gods recognize that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe there's not much difference between our lower selfish nature and the devil's lower selfish nature. Jesus fixed that so we can now have a divine nature [2 Peter 1:4) in addition to the old nature. You've probable read about the "new man" vs the "old man" in Paul's letters.Christ in you (Col 1:27) is the "new man." Ephesians 4:24 says it is created in righteousness and holiness. Ephesians 2:10 says it is God's creation. All that and more because Jesus loved enough to lay down his life so sinners could be made into the new creations.

I understand you probably don't believe all that, but at least that's what the book claims. You'll notice none of the verses require interpretation. Pretty straightforward, just like the newspaper (most of the time anyway )

Actually, I do believe all of that, exactly that!

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality…..

The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree. Some Answered Questions, p. 118, 121

Read more: 29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Can you elaborate on why you believe that and support that with Baha'i Writings?

Well, the word "pre-destiny" is mentioned in Bahaii writings. These things are confirmed by Abdulbaha. I don't have the Tablets in English to quote right now, but certainly I know they confirmed that there is such a thing as pre-destiny.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why do you think so?

@Trailblazer,
This is just an example, in a Tablet from Bahaullah:

"Shed thee not tears from thine eyes and be not of the anxious ones. Put on the robe of submission and quaff from the wine of acquiescence; and sell the entire world for a mere derham. Give thy heart to God’s irrevocable decree and submit to that which He has ordained for thee.”

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, the word "pre-destiny" is mentioned in Bahaii writings. These things are confirmed by Abdulbaha. I don't have the Tablets in English to quote right now, but certainly I know they confirmed that there is such a thing as pre-destiny.

Yes, there is such a thing as predestination (I will address that in the next post) but Abdu'l-Baha clearly stated that we have free will.

Question.—Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he compelled and constrained?

Answer.—This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.

For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or he can be occupied with other thoughts. He can be an enkindled light through the fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the world, or he can be a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material things. He can be just or cruel. These actions and these deeds are subject to the control of the will of man himself; consequently, he is responsible for them. Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Read more: 70: FREE WILL