Do we really have free will?

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer,
This is just an example, in a Tablet from Bahaullah:

"Shed thee not tears from thine eyes and be not of the anxious ones. Put on the robe of submission and quaff from the wine of acquiescence; and sell the entire world for a mere derham. Give thy heart to God’s irrevocable decree and submit to that which He has ordained for thee.”

However, that does not mean that everything is decreed (predetermined) by God. If that was true, we would all just be God's puppets on a string with no ability to choose.

And of what is decreed, not all of it is an irrevocable decree:

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.

Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133

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Abdu'l-Baha said something very similar:

Question.—Is the predestination which is mentioned in the Holy Books a decreed thing? If so, is not the effort to avoid it useless?

Answer.—Fate is of two kinds: one is decreed, and the other is conditional or impending. The decreed fate is that which cannot change or be altered, and conditional fate is that which may occur. So, for this lamp, the decreed fate is that the oil burns and will be consumed; therefore, its eventual extinction is a decree which it is impossible to alter or to change because it is a decreed fate. In the same way, in the body of man a power of life has been created, and as soon as it is destroyed and ended, the body will certainly be decomposed, so when the oil in this lamp is burnt and finished, the lamp will undoubtedly become extinguished.

But conditional fate may be likened to this: while there is still oil, a violent wind blows on the lamp, which extinguishes it. This is a conditional fate. It is wise to avoid it, to protect oneself from it, to be cautious and circumspect. But the decreed fate, which is like the finishing of the oil in the lamp, cannot be altered, changed nor delayed. It must happen; it is inevitable that the lamp will become extinguished.” Some Answered Questions, p. 244

Everything that will happen to us has already been written on the Tablet of Fate, but we can alter some of what will be written on the Tablet of Fate by the decisions we make and the actions that ensue. In other words, we can alter what would have been written on the Tablet of Fate by the decisions we make. It is however important to note that we can ONLY alter a conditional or impending fate, not a decreed fate.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

However, that does not mean that everything is decreed (predetermined) by God. If that was true, we would all just be God's puppets on a string with no ability to choose.

And of what is decreed, not all of it is an irrevocable decree:

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.

Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133

If we read this very carefully, the thing is, both are referred by Bahaullah as "fate and predestiny".

Then He goes on and says, the first type of predesteny may not be changed. As the second type, He says, that, if we pray, God may change it if He wants to:

"The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it."



In another words, both are in the hands of God.

I believe, for a wisdom, Bahaullah or Abdulbaha did not say it explicitly that everything is in reality is predestined. Had they said, people would say, then we are puppets of God. So, they avoided to say it directly.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Trailblazer

And as for prayers, my experience has been, God almost always, disagrees with what I asked Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

If we read this very carefully, the thing is, both are referred by Bahaullah as "fate and predestiny".

Then He goes on and says, the first type of predesteny may not be changed. As the second type, He says, that, if we pray, God may change it if He wants to:

"The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it."

In another words, both are in the hands of God.

I believe, for a wisdom, Bahaullah or Abdulbaha did not say it explicitly that everything is in reality is predestined. Had they said, people would say, then we are puppets of God. So, they avoided to say it directly.

Yes, I know that both kinds of decrees are in the hands of God, it even says that in the passage.

"The fate that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it."

Baha'u'llah does not say: The fate that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty will succeed in averting it.

So if everything in reality is predestined we are all just then everything we will ever do already been decided upon by God are we just acting out what has been written on the Tablet of Fate? Are we all just actors in a movie that God has scripted and we have no choice but to follow that script? If we are not free to make our own choices that would have to mean that God is controlling our actions. Moreover, if we cannot make any moral choices how can we grow spiritually? How could we choose between our higher nature and our lower nature?

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer

And as for prayers, my experience has been, God almost always, disagrees with what I asked Him.

That is one reason I never ask for anything in particular, I just ask for assistance such as in the Remover of Difficulties prayer.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes, I know that both kinds of decrees are in the hands of God, it even says that in the passage.

"The fate that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it."

Baha'u'llah does not say: The fate that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty will succeed in averting it.

So if everything in reality is predestined we are all just then everything we will ever do already been decided upon by God are we just acting out what has been written on the Tablet of Fate? Are we all just actors in a movie that God has scripted and we have no choice but to follow that script? If we are not free to make our own choices that would have to mean that God is controlling our actions. Moreover, if we cannot make any moral choices how can we grow spiritually? How could we choose between our higher nature and our lower nature?

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

My understanding is, We grow spiritual by following God's teachings as revealed by latest manifestation of God.
However, this is the "fate and predestination" of each individual.

For example, a person may be born in an upright family, brought up properly, lived in a healthy environment. But another person, was born from a criminal, addicted, alcoholic family. Do you think both have equal chance to grow spiritually equally?

Surely no. So, did they choose which family to be born in? No, of course not. So, it turns out, from very beginning things were not determined by themselves, and the rest is the same.

For example did Abdulbaha choose to be who He was, or it was predetermined for Him?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Trailblazer,

And whether we Like it or not, seems we are puppets of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

My understanding is, We grow spiritual by following God's teachings as revealed by latest manifestation of God.
However, this is the "fate and predestination" of each individual.

For example, a person may be born in an upright family, brought up properly, lived in a healthy environment. But another person, was born from a criminal, addicted, alcoholic family. Do you think both have equal chance to grow spiritually equally?

Surely no. So, did they choose which family to be born in? No, of course not. So, it turns out, from very beginning things were not determined by themselves,

No, these things were not determined by ourselves

and the rest is the same.

But I believe that what happens after we are born and become adults is determined by ourselves. Free will does not mean that we are free to do “anything” we want to do but humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity, or at the mercy of God to make our choices for us.

I can agree that some people are severely limited in the choices they are able to make, as I am one such person.

For example did Abdulbaha choose to be who He was, or it was predetermined for Him?

That is not a fair example, because he was not just an ordinary man. His father was a Manifestation of God so he had a special destiny to fulfill, but he still had to make everyday choices in his life, as we all do.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Maybe I am stuck because it is not meant to be that I change anything right now, because I am doing what God has willed/scripted for me, or maybe I should be doing these things.

Of course you have free will. But your current circumstances are the result of your past karma (from this life or previous lives). You can change your current situation by creating new karma - the best way is to live a life of service to others (like working with needy or sick people). Any other type of activity will not change your karma or circumstances very much or will do so only very slowly.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No, these things were not determined by ourselves

But I believe that what happens after we are born and become adults is determined by ourselves. Free will does not mean that we are free to do “anything” we want to do but humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity, or at the mercy of God to make our choices for us.

I can agree that some people are severely limited in the choices they are able to make, as I am one such person.

That is not a fair example, because he was not just an ordinary man. His father was a Manifestation of God so he had a special destiny to fulfill, but he still had to make everyday choices in his life, as we all do.

Well, here is part of a prayer by Bahaullah:

"All life is of Thee and all power lieth within the grasp of Thine omnipotence. Whosoever Thou exaltest is raised above the angels, and attaineth the station: “Verily, We uplifted him to a place on high!”; and whosoever Thou dost abase is made lower than dust, nay, less than nothing."


According to this prayer, it is God who choose to exalt or abuse the spiritual stations of each person.

Anyways, I used to think like you. If you read my posts in RF, 5 years ago, I always said, I believed in free will. But now, I came to a different conclusion and understanding.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer,

And whether we Like it or not, seems we are puppets of God.

I sure hope not, because if we are God is a puppeteer who is nice to some of His puppets and cruel to others.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course you have free will. But your current circumstances are the result of your past karma (from this life or previous lives). You can change your current situation by creating new karma - the best way is to live a life of service to others (like working with needy or sick people). Any other type of activity will not change your karma or circumstances very much or will do so only very slowly.

I do not believe in past lives. Maybe I did some things in this life that led me to where I am today, but I am not going to blame myself for things that were not my fault. I decided to live a life of service to others, but not to change my karma, rather because that is what my religion teaches that I should do.

 

[Trailblazer]

According to this prayer, it is God who choose to exalt or abuse the spiritual stations of each person.

That part might be true, but God is not going to decide for me what house I live in or how I make everyday choices.
You have probably have already read this:

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”
The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

Then there is this excerpt below from a longer tablet. To me this says that God knew what people were guide-able and He guided them, and also God knew who would rebel so He did not guile them.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

This excerpt from the Tablet of the True Seeker indicates that those who are spiritually-minded and make an effort for God and His Manifestations will be guided by God and His Manifestations.

“These are among the attributes of the exalted, and constitute the hall-mark of the spiritually-minded. They have already been mentioned in connection with the requirements of the wayfarers that tread the path of Positive Knowledge. When the detached wayfarer and sincere seeker hath fulfilled these essential conditions, then and only then can he be called a true seeker. Whensoever he hath fulfilled the conditions implied in the verse: “Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

 

[KerimF]

I believe that everyone has free will to make moral choices but not everyone uses that free to rise above the animal condition. As such many, perhaps most people, live for the world, so they are not really much different than animals who operate on animal instincts. They have no need for free will even though they have it.

So let us explore what "moral choices" could mean.
I wish you can give me a moral choice (better if more than one) which doesn't reflect our natural human instincts, directly or indirectly.
Thank you.

 

[Truthseeker]

@Trailblazer,
This is just an example, in a Tablet from Bahaullah:

"Shed thee not tears from thine eyes and be not of the anxious ones. Put on the robe of submission and quaff from the wine of acquiescence; and sell the entire world for a mere derham. Give thy heart to God’s irrevocable decree and submit to that which He has ordained for thee.”

Yes, there are irrevocable decrees and revocable decrees. He does ordain some things for us.

Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh", 68.2

Just using logic and reason, wouldn't it be unjust if a person was far from God and another was close to God because it is irrevocably settled?

 

[Truthseeker]

For example did Abdulbaha choose to be who He was, or it was predetermined for Him?

I agree with you there, but it is not the same for the rest of us.

 

[Truthseeker]

I sure hope not, because if we are God is a puppeteer who is nice to some of His puppets and cruel to others.

I tried to make a similar point.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

The problem that remains is that I still have to live in the material world, until I cross over to the spiritual world, so I have to deal with what that entails. That takes time, and I do not want to spend time on it, so I do the minimum, what is absolutely necessary.

This is a common issue for anybody wanting to dedicate themselves entirely to their relationship with God. It is why some choose a monastic life and I would say it is one of the reasons for hermitage too.

We choose to abandon close worldly relationships and possessions because we see them as distractions that interfere with our spiritual calling.

Some call it crazy, others selfish …and in ways, that is understandable - especially when it is done without proper preparation. Because it is not just a question of oneself being “ready” to take on such a lifestyle; a responsible person will also ensure that others in their life too are “ready” for them to do so.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[Aupmanyav]

If you have no free will, then you can not make any choices, right?
So you have never chosen what to have for dinner?
Or what outfit to wear?

That too depends on circumstances. When I was a child we did not get apples in our place (Jodhpur, Rajasthan, India, and its small towns where my father was posted as the government doctor). So, I never developed taste for apples, many other vegetables.
In childhood we did not wear bermudas. So, I have a distinct distaste for bermudas. So also for hair cuts. In all conservative. Now, at the age nearing 80, my preferences remain the same. Therefore what you do today may have its roots in your childhood. Just like parental religions.

 

[Truthseeker]

Well, here is part of a prayer by Bahaullah:

"All life is of Thee and all power lieth within the grasp of Thine omnipotence. Whosoever Thou exaltest is raised above the angels, and attaineth the station: “Verily, We uplifted him to a place on high!”; and whosoever Thou dost abase is made lower than dust, nay, less than nothing."


According to this prayer, it is God who choose to exalt or abuse the spiritual stations of each person.

Anyways, I used to think like you. If you read my posts in RF, 5 years ago, I always said, I believed in free will. But now, I came to a different conclusion and understanding.

He can exalt us if He chooses to. As in one of Trailblazers posts, He chooses to do so because of something we did in the past that we are not aware of it or something to that effect which comes from Baha'u'llah. He can abase us for similar reasons. Yes, He is omnipotent, but that doesn't mean He does everything for us. He chooses for us to have some degree of free will though He could take it from us since He's omnipotent. Sometimes He might do that. He does as He chooses, and He might show mercy to someone who doesn't deserve it. He's not arbitrary as I would conceive it, though. I don't believe He would degrade someone who doesn't deserve that. He's a God of mercy and justice.

How did you get so illogical and acquire such unjust thinking? You can't take some passages and ignore others, like where 'Abdu'l-Baha says in Some Answered Questions that in some matters we have free will. Are you saying that you disagree with 'Abdu'l-Baha in this? Are you sure that 'Abdu'l-Baha is not interpreting Baha'u'llah when He says that? Apparently you do think that and that 'Abdu'l-Baha would not be humble enough not to say something that might be wrong with confidence.