Do You Agree?

[nPeace]

Well, my main points would be:
1) God knows what God thinks on abortion
2) Only God knows, humans just guess
Hence:
3) We should not impose on others
4) Esp. not using God's word
5) We are free to be strict on ourselves

Jesus said God's word is truth, which one can know, and one must know the father and son, in order to gain everlasting life.
(John 8:31-32) 31 . . .“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

(John 17:17) Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.

It's not possible to hate what God hates, if we do not know what God hates, or loves.
(Psalms 97:10) O you who love Jehovah, hate what is bad. He is guarding the lives of his loyal ones; He rescues them from the hand of the wicked.
(Psalms 34:14) Turn away from what is bad and do what is good;

So if one does not know how God views abortion, they cannot know what pleases God, and thus cannot please God.

Evidently, because most of mankind think that God has not communicated to us through the Bible, they think that writings by various religious individuals are just man's words, and so, they think we are left to work out for ourselves what God wants.

I could tell you what's wrong with that, and why it has occurred, but I don't want you to feel I am hitting at you.

For those following God's word, we apply 2 Timothy 3:16-17. So that we are corrected and reproved, and matters are set straight, so that we are disciplined in what is right, thus making us - the godly person - completely equipped for every good work.

The principles and commands found here, guides us on the matter of abortion.
(Genesis 9:6) . . .Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image He made man.

(Exodus 20:13) “You must not murder.

(Exodus 21:22-23) 22 “If men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but no fatality results, the offender must pay the damages imposed on him by the husband of the woman; and he must pay it through the judges. 23 But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life,

About abortion...below a real life example

I found a story about Sai devotees. Girl got pregnant. Scan (ca. 8 weeks) shows no pulse, hence doctor advices abortion, otherwise she might die too

Cool.

1) Do you say the doctor gave wrong advice?

When in doubt, get a second opinion, and trustworthy advice.
The doctor can be mistaken. The pulse may be low.
The person wouldn't want to make a mistake based on inaccurate or limited facts.

2) Would you leave it to God? To do a miracle or not?

If one has a tumor, which doctors recommend removing as it will be fatal, the person has the choice to decide, if to have it removed or live with it.
Is the fetus dead? Will it kill the person if not removed? Will removing it kill the person?
The persons would weight such questions, while making a decision.

3) Is it your place to tell the girl what to do?

It's their choice. Not mine.
However, it is my place if that girl is a close friend, relative, or spiritual sister, to give her sound scriptural advice, which can guide her in making the right choice.
(Galatians 6:1-2) 1 Brothers, even if a man takes a false step before he is aware of it, you who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness. But keep an eye on yourself, for fear you too may be tempted. 2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and in this way you will fulfill the law of the Christ.

(Proverbs 27:5-6) 5 Open reproof is better than concealed love. 6 The wounds inflicted by a friend are faithful. . .

(Leviticus 19:17) ...You should by all means reprove your fellow man, so that you will not bear sin along with him.

4) Do you think imposing "no abortion" is dharmic?

Remember @stvdv I am not Hindu, or Buddhist, so dharmic is not something I know much about, or relate to.
If you mean, Do I think imposing "no abortion" is righteous?
What do you mean by imposing?
If you mean forcing people to do something, No.

If by imposing, you mean teaching...
According to the Bible, which I live by, Yes.

I mentioned the scriptures earlier.
God makes known what he requires his worshippers to live by, or how he wants them to live.

5) Do you think imposing fear/guilt feeling is dharmic?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by imposing fear/guilt feeling?
Some people think that teaching right and wrong is "imposing fear/guilt feelings". Is that what you mean?

Since I lve by God's word - the Bible, I follow these...
(Psalms 141:5) Should the righteous one strike me, it would be an act of loyal love; Should he reprove me, it would be like oil on my head, Which my head would never refuse. My prayer will continue even during their calamities.

(2 Timothy 4:1-5) 1 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom: 2 Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

(1 Timothy 5:20) Reprove before all onlookers those who practice sin, as a warning to the rest.

Just because it's not mentioned in the Bible is not a valid reason to tell a raped girl she shouldn't abort the baby, and must accept it

I agree, we do not make decisions for persons. However, we teach them what we learn is right in God's eyes, and leave them to their choice.

The principles are there in the Bible. They guides us to know

1. Life is sacred to God
2. Willful murder is against God's law
3. The life of the unborn is precious - of value, to God (Psalm 139:16) Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed. (Exodus 21:22-25)

My opinion:
a) Not my place to decide for her
b) I choose for myself only, not for others

Fair enough.
Each one will carry their own load.
(Galatians 6:4-5) 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

However, if one knows, and she doesn't, the one that knows, bears the sin or guilt of the one that doesn't know.
(Leviticus 19:17) You should by all means reprove your fellow man, so that you will not bear sin along with him.
Is that something you agree with?

 

[nPeace]

Don't put this on @nPeace, that's incorrect

I seem be be the apple of his eye.

 

[nPeace]

That makes sense to me, that the Bible does not mention it

Does not imply that God would judge it though, when it is done now

What is your personal feeling about rape and abortion IF you leave the Bible out?

Assume your wife gets raped, gets pregnant (you know...if God wants everything is possible)?

If I leave the Bible out, I will do like everyone else.
(Proverbs 14:12) . . .There is a way that seems right to a man, But in the end it leads to death.

 

[YoursTrue]

One must always remember life is about Living. Death is no more than a change. WE define ourselves by what we choose.

A coward dies many times before their death. A Hero only dies once.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

From what I see in the Bible, there were a couple of choices placed before Adam. He knew what he was doing. Eve did not quite understand, but she incurred the death penalty anyway because she disobeyed her Creator, knowing what He said and choosing to go against Him without realizing she would not keep living. There is life, and there is death. Death is not life. Just to be clear.

 

[YoursTrue]

That makes sense to me, that the Bible does not mention it

Does not imply that God would judge it though, when it is done now

What is your personal feeling about rape and abortion IF you leave the Bible out?

Assume your wife gets raped, gets pregnant (you know...if God wants everything is possible)?

Here's a question you might think about. First of all, remember that God put life and death before Adam and Eve. There is life and there is death. Death was not a reward. So to sum up, life is precious to God, This does not mean He will give everyone eternal life though.
He gives guidelines to people. Remember, I did not always think this way. So what I would have done, might have done, could have done before I studied the Bible and learned God's ways, is not what I would do now. That is my choice, knowing I live differently than what I would have done before. But let's be clear about something -- there are spontaneous abortions, and there are pregnancies the woman might not even be aware of where she painlessly and unknowingly loses the embryo. I truly understand the controversy about abortion. But remember that the laws of the various lands differ. and God's law differs in degree from man's law.

 

[1213]

....
There is no evidence the government is perpetrating gun crimes, ....

Only those that politicians use to abolish the gun owning rights, like the Uvalde case. And reasons why Uvalde case is probably arranged by government:
1. Best explanation why and how the shooter got his expensive guns and ammunition.
2. The one who commanded polices protected the shooter and didn't allow anyone to stop the massacre.
3. Politicians were quick to promote anti-gun propaganda.
Which is why all evidence points to government organized massacre.

Restricting guns will not end the killing. Only way the end it is to teach people that murder is wrong.

 

[1213]

So you think all these mass shootings are orchestrated by the government? For real? Do you have evidence for this Alex Jones-esque claim?

I can't say all, because I don't know all the cases well enough. But the Uvalde case, all evidence points to government job at this point:
1. Best explanation why and how the shooter got his expensive guns and ammunition.
2. The one who commanded polices protected the shooter and didn't allow anyone to stop the massacre.
3. Politicians were quick to promote anti-gun propaganda.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Only those that politicians use to abolish the gun owning rights, like the Uvalde case. And reasons why Uvalde case is probably arranged by government:
1. Best explanation why and how the shooter got his expensive guns and ammunition.
2. The one who commanded polices protected the shooter and didn't allow anyone to stop the massacre.
3. Politicians were quick to promote anti-gun propaganda.
Which is why all evidence points to government organized massacre.

Restricting guns will not end the killing. Only way the end it is to teach people that murder is wrong.

You really think people don't already know that murder is wrong and that if we just tell people that, they'll all stop shooting each other?
Seriously?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I can't say all, because I don't know all the cases well enough. But the Uvalde case, all evidence points to government job at this point:
1. Best explanation why and how the shooter got his expensive guns and ammunition.
2. The one who commanded polices protected the shooter and didn't allow anyone to stop the massacre.
3. Politicians were quick to promote anti-gun propaganda.

1. How is that the "best explanation?" How is the best explanation not just that he legally obtained two guns?
2. Sounds like plain old incompetence and cowardice to me.
3. And? In every country in the world that experienced a mass shooting, that took gun control measures afterward, haven't had a mass shooting since. The US on the other hand, has one what seems like almost every day now. It's not super crazy to want to control guns in a more efficient and safe way like almost the entire rest of the free world has done. It saves lives.

This is quite a reach, I must say.

 

[Sheldon]

There is no evidence the government is perpetrating gun crimes, that's just a wild unevidenced conspiracy theory people use, as an excuse to ignore the facts.

Only those that politicians use to abolish the gun owning rights, like the Uvalde case. And reasons why Uvalde case is probably arranged by government:
1. Best explanation why and how the shooter got his expensive guns and ammunition.
2. The one who commanded polices protected the shooter and didn't allow anyone to stop the massacre.
3. Politicians were quick to promote anti-gun propaganda.
Which is why all evidence points to government organized massacre.

1. No it isn't, it's not even an explanation it's a bare unevidenced claim.
2. So what? You're indulging wild unevidenced conspiracy again, you offer no evidence his actions were encouraged or endorsed by any part of the government.
3. It's not propaganda, they just witnessed another tragic and inevitable result of lax gun laws, resulting in these tragic mass shootings and massive gun crime.

Restricting guns will not end the killing.

I already posted objective evidence it does, in multiple other countries, and you are waving it away with a this bare unevidenced claim.

Only way the end it is to teach people that murder is wrong.

There will always be people who commit murder, and there will always be varyingly and complex reasons, the problem in the US is the amount of violence and murder is massively increased because guns are easy to buy, and own. this is demonstrated by comparing the rates of gun violence with other developed democracies, as I did earlier, and you have ignored.

In a debate when you ignore salient facts, you've lost.

 

[Sheldon]

Don't put this on @nPeace, that's incorrect

If I have misunderstood this claim:

nPeace said: ↑
Parents have sex and no pure mind, hence a child is born from lust, hence impure mind, hence alienated from God.

Then I will apologise for the misunderstanding, but that was how I read it.

 

[Sheldon]

1. How is that the "best explanation?" How is the best explanation not just that he legally obtained two guns?
2. Sounds like plain old incompetence and cowardice to me.
3. And? In every country in the world that experienced a mass shooting, that took gun control measures afterward, haven't had a mass shooting since. The US on the other hand, has one what seems like almost every day now. It's not super crazy to want to control guns in a more efficient and safe way like almost the entire rest of the free world has done. It saves lives.

This is quite a reach, I must say.

This kind of denial still astounds me. I don't want to imagine what parents are going through after one of the pointless tragedies, but to be told it's a hoax or propaganda or staged to stop people owning guns is a nauseating idea. It's hard to know what to say, as you know anyone saying this is never going to accept the facts.

However lets give it a try with some facts:

"Ramos legally purchased two AR platform rifles at a local federal firearms licensee on May 17 and on May 20, according to state Sen. John Whitmire, who received a briefing from law enforcement Tuesday night. He also purchased 375 rounds of ammunition on May 18, Whitmire said, citing law enforcement.
State Sen. Roland Gutierrez, who represents Uvalde, said the purchases were made for the suspect's 18th birthday.
"It's the first thing he did when he turned 18," he told CNN's Erin Burnett on Tuesday evening, citing a briefing he received from Texas Rangers.
Gutierrez said the guns were bought legally from a federally authorized dealer in the Uvalde area. "(He) had no problem accessing those weapons," he said."

"Hours before the shooting, the gunman made a series of ominous messages on different social media sites.
The Instagram account that was linked to Ramos posted a photo of two rifles lying on a carpet"

CITATION 1

CITATION 2

"The 77-page report, reviewed by The Texas Tribune, provides a damning portrayal of a family unable to recognize warning signs, a school district that had strayed from strict adherence to its safety plan and a police response that disregarded its own active shooter training.
It explains how the gunman, who investigators believe had never fired a gun before May 24, was able to stockpile military-style rifles, accessories and ammunition without arousing suspicion from authorities, then enter a supposedly secure school unimpeded and indiscriminately kill children and adults."

CITATION

So the facts don't support the wild conspiracy here, needless to say really.

It is an objective facts that strict gun laws have reduced gun violence in many countries, the UK among them, where gun violence and especially gun deaths are massively lower than in the US.

Now some more disturbing facts here about this case:

• The gunmaker that made the rifle used in Uvalde advertises aggressively online, the NYT reports.
• Daniel Defense was an early adopter of advertising directly to consumers online, per the outlet.
• Its website promotes a buy-now, pay-later payment plan, and it runs "Call of Duty"-inspired ads.

 

[stvdv]

If I have misunderstood this claim:

Then I will apologise for the misunderstanding, but that was how I read it.

Yes, you misunderstood, it was not his claim, it was his puzzle though, and you almost need to have Sherlock Holmes skills to find "who did it"

But don't sweat it, now you know, and @nPeace is in the clear, that was why I let you know

 

[Bird123]

From what I see in the Bible, there were a couple of choices placed before Adam. He knew what he was doing. Eve did not quite understand, but she incurred the death penalty anyway because she disobeyed her Creator, knowing what He said and choosing to go against Him without realizing she would not keep living. There is life, and there is death. Death is not life. Just to be clear.

One can never assume stories written by mankind portrait reality or God. Holy books written by mankind reflect mankind more than anything else.

God is Unconditional Love. There is nothing anyone could do prevent themselves from being Eternal.

God isn't making laws or rules for anyone. Mankind is the one doing that. God simply teaches one what their free choices really mean. When one understands all sides, intelligence will choose the best choices. There really is no need to value the petty things mankind holds so dear. Each, in time, will Discover this for themselves.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[YoursTrue]

One must always remember life is about Living. Death is no more than a change. WE define ourselves by what we choose.

A coward dies many times before their death. A Hero only dies once.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I see that death is not life. Life is about living, that's for sure. Death is not about living. When we're alive we know people die. We know we face death, and/or our life ends. But if you think it goes on, from my understanding of the Bible, when a person or animal dies, they are dead. Not alive. (There's a difference.)

 

[YoursTrue]

One can never assume stories written by mankind portrait reality or God. Holy books written by mankind reflect mankind more than anything else.

God is Unconditional Love. There is nothing anyone could do prevent themselves from being Eternal.

God isn't making laws or rules for anyone. Mankind is the one doing that. God simply teaches one what their free choices really mean. When one understands all sides, intelligence will choose the best choices. There really is no need to value the petty things mankind holds so dear. Each, in time, will Discover this for themselves.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Unconditional love? Please explain what you think that means. Oh, you think we live eternally regardless of anything? Oh well...Just to let you know, I believe that death is not life. Death is the end of life.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, I only spoke about rapists,

Not implying to superimpose it on totally and essentially different situations

Rapists: sex is imposed, not agreed on
God hater: sex is not imposed

And I added that "life force" enters after 4 month and 9 days, hence there is no killing

No harm done to "unborn foetus"

Here is where I'd like to say something, please. I'm reading some of the posts.

God values life. In some cases, embryos are lost without the woman even knowing about it. That of course is not like a deliberate abortion, or removing (deliberate cessation) of life from the womb.
Exodus 21 to the Jews give a good example of the pregnancy issue and how God feels about it.
Verses 22 & 23 of chapter 21 help to understand more about this. Speaking about two men fighting and subsequent harm to a pregnant woman:

"And when men strive together and push against a woman with child, and she miscarry, but there is no other mischief, he shall surely be fined according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him, but he shall give it through judges. And if there is bodily damage he shall give life for life,"

So clearly this helps us to understand the unborn life is very important to the God that inspired the writing of the Bible.

 

[stvdv]

"And when men strive together and push against a woman with child, and she miscarry, but there is no other mischief, he shall surely be fined according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him, but he shall give it through judges. And if there is bodily damage he shall give life for life,"

So clearly this helps us to understand the unborn life is very important to the God that inspired the writing of the Bible

Thank you so much for your feedback. We are lucky to have JW around who know much about Bible verses

And what I read here, correct me if my English fails please:
1) If men accidental push woman and child dies (miscarry) then man must pay money
2) Same as 1) BUT now child dies AND mother dies then man must pay with his life

If I understood correctly then this proves that the" Bible - God" judges firmer IF woman dies in the proces

Using my discrimination and logic thinking

Woman should not die in the proces. So, abortion is sometimes permissible if woman's life is saved, right?

And that has been exactly my point all the time. I don't like abortion, but sometimes a choice needs to be made, choose wisely the best of 2 bad choices

 

[1213]

...
I already posted objective evidence it does, in multiple other countries, and you are waving it away with a this bare unevidenced claim.....

Because there can be many explanations and you can't prove it is because of the reason you claim it is, your words have no weight in this case, sorry.

 

[1213]

1. How is that the "best explanation?" How is the best explanation not just that he legally obtained two guns?

Yes, he may have gotten them legally, but where did he got the money for them? Why stop on half way and not investigate meaningful matters?