Do You Agree?

[stvdv]

Exodus 21:22-23 That's not it? I'm sorry. Which one is it?

Yes, that IS the correct one

The last line is about the mother dies as a result of impact that killed baby

I gave my view that this could be interpreted to mean that abortion is allowed if mothers life can be saved.

Also, medical science improved, hence naturally God did not advice such dangerous procedure in the year 0; far too risky back then.

Now it's different, hence I would not pin God down to what God gave in Bible 2000 years prior.

Only God can answer what God wants in that case. We can only speculate. We can really believe we know, even claim to know, but still it's not 100%

Impose on God what He wants sounds pretty much like blasphemy to me, as in "sit in God's chair"; Sai Baba made clear that we better not do that, unless we "know", as in different from belief, as is "hearsay" vs "direct knowing"

Religious Forums

or more clear
Douay-Rheims Bible
But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life

 

[nPeace]

Yes, that IS the correct one

The last line is about the mother dies as a result of impact that killed baby

I gave my view that this could be interpreted to mean that abortion is allowed if mothers life can be saved.

Also, medical science improved, hence naturally God did not advice such dangerous procedure in the year 0; far too risky back then.

Now it's different, hence I would not pin God down to what God gave in Bible 2000 years prior.

Only God can answer what God wants in that case. We can only speculate. We can really believe we know, even claim to know, but still it's not 100%

Impose on God what He wants sounds pretty much like blasphemy to me, as in "sit in God's chair"; Sai Baba made clear that we better not do that, unless we "know", as in different from belief, as is "hearsay" vs "direct knowing"

Religious Forums

or more clear
Douay-Rheims Bible
But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life

I hope you didn't misunderstand my post too.
I addressed what you said, in this post. All that I said was addressed to your post, and what you said.
I used the same verses in Exodus 21:22-23
What did you understand me to be saying about it? Biting my nails, and shaking

 

[Sheldon]

Why? Are Atheist that ashamed of their shortcomings?

Why would anyone be ashamed at being able to read a dictionary and construct a cogent sentence, more troublingly why would anyone consider not understanding woo woo, while grasping basic literacy a shortcoming?

 

[stvdv]

I hooe you didn't misunderstand my post too.
I addressed what you said, in this post. All that I said was addressed to your post, and what you said.
I used the same verses in Exodus 21:22-23
What did you understand me to be saying about it? Biting my nails, and shaking

I did not see you using that last line, or I missed it

You clearly described the first part, that the baby died, that was the easier part, very clear to me.

Man must pay money, should not be killed

But the last line added "if mother dies as a consequence of baby dies due to the push given"

My focus and explanation was about below verse.

"But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life"

So
God punishes man more here (mother dies also)

Man should be killed, when mother dies as a consequence of child dies (understandable, if child dies, and is not aborted naturally then mother might almost certain die)

 

[nPeace]

Yes, that IS the correct one

The last line is about the mother dies as a result of impact that killed baby

I gave my view that this could be interpreted to mean that abortion is allowed if mothers life can be saved.

Also, medical science improved, hence naturally God did not advice such dangerous procedure in the year 0; far too risky back then.

Now it's different, hence I would not pin God down to what God gave in Bible 2000 years prior.

Only God can answer what God wants in that case. We can only speculate. We can really believe we know, even claim to know, but still it's not 100%

Impose on God what He wants sounds pretty much like blasphemy to me, as in "sit in God's chair"; Sai Baba made clear that we better not do that, unless we "know", as in different from belief, as is "hearsay" vs "direct knowing"

Religious Forums

or more clear
Douay-Rheims Bible
But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life

Also @stvdv. Take note please, that the only Bible translations saying what you assumed, are the paraphrased - the ones that edited the text according to what they think - assume.
Exodus 21:23 But if a serious injury results, then you must require a life for a life--

 

[Sheldon]

Words are just words to most Atheists. They mean nothing... at least to the ones I have communicated with.

Poisoning of the well fallacy.

Ordinarily I'd offer an explanation, but since most atheists will know what it means, and certain theists clearly don't care that their woo woo spiel is irrational, there seems little point.

 

[nPeace]

I did not see you using that last line, or I missed it

You clearly described the first part, that the baby died, that was the easier part, very clear to me.

Man must pay mone, should not be killed

But the last line added "if mother dies as a consequence of baby dies due to the push given"

My focus and explanation was about below verse.

"But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life"

So
God punishes man more here (mother dies also)

Man should be killed, when mother dies as a consequence of child dies (understandable, if child dies, and is not aborted naturally then mother might almost certain die)

See my previous post. That's not the original text. It's altered according to an assumption..
Exodus 21:23 Interlinear: and if there is mischief, then thou hast given life for life,

I showed why it's the unborn child that died, and not the mother.

 

[nPeace]

Someone is trying to provoke an evil response, but nah. Why waste precious time on garbage.

 

[stvdv]

Also @stvdv. Take note please, that the only Bible translations saying what you assumed, are the paraphrased - the ones that edited the text according to what they think - assume.
Exodus 21:23 But if a serious injury results, then you must require a life for a life--

Yes, I highlighted the one that said "if mother dies"

All others more or less said "if further harm occurs to mother, the man must die"

Quite radical I think. If mother gets e.g. nosebleed, man must die, bit of an overkill

Hence I selected worst scenario "mother dies" then "man dies" makes most sense to me

So, if child dies, and aborts not naturally God punishes severely (man must die). Put differently...

Hence

God wants the mother to not die (otherwise punishment would not have been more severe)

God provided better medical care in 2020, so when natural abortion fails, we can now (2020) save mother by aborting dead child, because God wants the mother not to die when baby dies

That is what I explained before too, but I did not see you respond to it, while it was my most important deduction

I don't know for sure, but it is a logical conclusion

 

[nPeace]

You clearly described the first part, that the baby died, that was the easier part, very clear to me.

Man must pay money, should not be killed

Seems the translation you are using is in serious error.
Did you read that money should be paid, and the offender not killed, if the unborn child dies?

Are you sure?
(Exodus 21:22-25) 22 “If men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but no fatality results, the offender must pay the damages imposed on him by the husband of the woman; and he must pay it through the judges. 23 But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Premature birth does not mean death.
Children are born prematurely. They just have some problems.

Exodus 21:22 If men who are fighting strike a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband demands and as the court allows.
Exodus 21:22 Interlinear: 'And when men strive, and have smitten a pregnant woman, and her children have come out, and there is no mischief, he is certainly fined, as the husband of the woman doth lay upon him, and he hath given through the judges;

 

[nPeace]

Yes, I highlighted the one that said "if mother dies"

All others more or less said "if further harm occurs to mother, the man must die"

Quite radical I think. If mother gets e.g. nosebleed, man must die, bit of an overkill

Hence I selected worst scenario "mother dies" then "man dies" makes most sense to me

So, if child dies, and aborts not naturally God punishes severely (man must die). Put differently...

Hence

God wants the mother to not die (otherwise punishment would not have been more severe)

God provided better medical care in 2020, so when natural abortion fails, we can now (2020) save mother by aborting dead child, because God wants the mother not to die when baby dies

That is what I explained before too, but I did not see you respond to it, while it was my most important deduction

I don't know for sure, but it is a logical conclusion

Time for a pause and go slow, I think.
Please quote the translations that all say "if mother dies".
Thanks

 

[Sheldon]

Some people like to hurl petulant accusations at those who don't share belief in their archaic superstitions, then sulk when their own remarks are submitted to critical scrutiny, but hey ho, ignorant cowards will always lack the courage to address facts they don't like, and hide behind petty insult.

 

[nPeace]

At last. Something I can agree with.

 

[stvdv]

Time for a pause and go slow, I think.
Please quote the translations that all say "if mother dies".
Thanks

I found the problem. It seems that pro choice movement use different translations and use "miscarriage". But not all are like that
This link explained it all

I replied originally to this link of your sister, so I did not double check, because I expected it to be the correct translation

Nice we finally got it figured out, thanks for your patience. You are right, this verse seems to me not about miscarriage

I see, your translation uses the word "premature birth", and many others use "Miscarriage"
This is what all translations say, that I read
Miscarriage = child dies
No further harm = mother is fine

When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.

Miscarriage (also called early pregnancy loss) is when a baby dies in the womb (uterus) before 20 weeks of pregnancy. For women who know they're pregnant, about 10 to 15 in 100 pregnancies (10 to 15 percent) end in miscarriage. Most miscarriages happen in the first trimester before the 12th week of

 

[Sheldon]

Progress of a sort, self awareness can often be painful to acquire.

 

[nPeace]

Ah. Something else I can agree with.

 

[nPeace]

@stvdv you are absolutely correct about what you said. You hit the nail on the head.
Hope you are not confused about this.

 

[nPeace]

I found the problem. It seems that pro choice movement use different translations and use "miscarriage". But not all are like that
This link explained it all

I replied originally to this link of your sister, so I did not double check, because I expected it to be the correct translation

Nice we finally got it figured out, thanks for your patience. You are right, this verse seems to me not about miscarriage

I see, your translation uses the word "premature birth", and many others use "Miscarriage"
This is what all translations say, that I read
Miscarriage = child dies
No further harm = mother is fine

When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.

Are you sure?
New International Version
“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows.

New Living Translation
“Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman’s husband demands and the judges approve.

English Standard Version
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Berean Study Bible
If men who are fighting strike a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband demands and as the court allows.

King James Bible
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

New King James Version
“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

New American Standard Bible
“Now if people struggle with each other and strike a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely, but there is no injury, the guilty person shall certainly be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.

NASB 1995
“If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.

NASB 1977
“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.

Amplified Bible
“If men fight with each other and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely [and the baby lives], yet there is no further injury, the one who hurt her must be punished with a fine [paid] to the woman’s husband, as much as the judges decide.

Christian Standard Bible
“When men get in a fight and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born prematurely but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman’s husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
When men get in a fight and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born prematurely but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman’s husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment.

American Standard Version
And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when two men will fight and they strike a woman who is pregnant and her infant shall come out and there will be no misfortune, certainly he shall be fined according to what the husband of the woman lays upon him, and he will give as the Judges decide.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
And if two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman's husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation.

Contemporary English Version
Suppose a pregnant woman suffers a miscarriage as the result of an injury caused by someone who is fighting. If she isn't badly hurt, the one who injured her must pay whatever fine her husband demands and the judges approve.

Douay-Rheims Bible
If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award.

Good News Translation
"If some men are fighting and hurt a pregnant woman so that she loses her child, but she is not injured in any other way, the one who hurt her is to be fined whatever amount the woman's husband demands, subject to the approval of the judges.

International Standard Version
"If two men are fighting and they strike a pregnant woman and her children are born prematurely, but there is no harm, he is certainly to be fined as the husband of the woman demands of him, and he will pay as the court decides.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow, he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Literal Standard Version
And when men strive, and have struck a pregnant woman, and her children have come out, and there is no harm [to them], he is certainly fined as the husband of the woman lays on him, and he has given through the judges;

New American Bible
When men have a fight and hurt a pregnant woman, so that she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury, the guilty one shall be fined as much as the woman’s husband demands of him, and he shall pay in the presence of the judges.

NET Bible
"If men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman's husband demands of him, and he will pay what the court decides.

New Revised Standard Version
When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.

New Heart English Bible
"If men fight and strike a pregnant woman so that her child is born prematurely, but there is no injury, he shall be surely fined as much as the woman?s husband demands and the judges allow.

World English Bible
"If men fight and hurt a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely, and yet no harm follows, he shall be surely fined as much as the woman's husband demands and the judges allow.

Young's Literal Translation
'And when men strive, and have smitten a pregnant woman, and her children have come out, and there is no mischief, he is certainly fined, as the husband of the woman doth lay upon him, and he hath given through the judges;

That's 5 / 27

PS
Could you use the deepest red, when highlighting fonts. This red is blinding, and difficult to read. Thanks.

 

[nPeace]

I found the problem. It seems that pro choice movement use different translations and use "miscarriage". But not all are like that
This link explained it all

I replied originally to this link of your sister, so I did not double check, because I expected it to be the correct translation

Nice we finally got it figured out, thanks for your patience. You are right, this verse seems to me not about miscarriage

I see, your translation uses the word "premature birth", and many others use "Miscarriage"
This is what all translations say, that I read
Miscarriage = child dies
No further harm = mother is fine

When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.

Thanks for that link. It was informative.

 

[stvdv]

Could you use the deepest red, when highlighting fonts. This red is blinding, and difficult to read. Thanks.

I like sometimes "good blinding red".

Probably if people had to kill (abort) the child themselves, not so many would be able to do it. They rather let the doctor do it. Same with eating meat

But I will use deep red next time Deo volente