Do You Agree?

[Bird123]

Unfortunately, the subject of hell has been distorted by many religions.

When mankind values so many petty things it's easy for them to create their image of God with Hell, Condemning, Judging, Blaming, Punishing, Anger, Wrath, Intimidating, Coercing, Ruling, Controlling, Creating a We against They and so much more. In reality, mankind is only looking at themselves, blind to see what actually exists.

Any Being capable of creating all this has to be very smart. God is at a Higher Level, beyond all those petty things mankind holds so dear.

Mankind's view of God proves their holy book does not come from God. There is Genius in God's system and way. It spans far beyond what I have seen in any holy book.

Has religion convinced you that this world is a Mess?? When you look at this world and see a Masterpiece, then I will know you at least have some really Understanding of what everything is really all about.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[YoursTrue]

Hello sister

Thanks again for your feedback

Amazing how many details the Bible provides. And indeed, I also came across different translations; "premature" and "miscarriage".

a) Translation "miscarriage" leads, by deduction, to abortion might be okay from Bible POV to make sure mother doesn't die too as a result from not medical removing from the dead fetus from the womb

b) Translation "premature" does NOT give information whether the life of the mother is important enough or not to save by aborting the dead fetus

(What do you think of below reasoning; also @nPeace ):

IMO
Common sense tells me "IF God deems the life of a fetus very important THEN the life of the mother is equally or more important AND must be saved, because the mother was a fetus once too, and is now vulnerable like a baby too, depending on others (to remove the dead fetus to save her life)"

Conclusion: Aborting dead fetus to save the mother's life is paramount from Bible POV, if medical expertise is available, because saving life is important

Note: Not trying to remove (abort) dead fetus from mother's womb would be purely political strategy and therefore Adharmic (Dharmic leads to God, Adharmic is the opposite)
Meaning: sacrifice the mother out of fear that by once allowing abortion, people will demand abortion too for other cases not provided in the Bible
@stvdvRF

I'm female, beyond child-bearing years. I was not always following God's law. So let me say that if I understand it correctly, abortion is removal of a living fetus, causing it to die. Upon thinking about this, there is quarrel about legislation going on in the U.S. about this and so I'm wondering also about this conversation -- it's considered a crime to kill a newly born infant. My life and decisions are before God, in other words, He sees my mind and heart. I pray when faced with such a critical decision and ask for God's direction.

 

[YoursTrue]

When mankind values so many petty things it's easy for them to create their image of God with Hell, Condemning, Judging, Blaming, Punishing, Anger, Wrath, Intimidating, Coercing, Ruling, Controlling, Creating a We against They and so much more. In reality, mankind is only looking at themselves, blind to see what actually exists.

Any Being capable of creating all this has to be very smart. God is at a Higher Level, beyond all those petty things mankind holds so dear.

Mankind's view of God proves their holy book does not come from God. There is Genius in God's system and way. It spans far beyond what I have seen in any holy book.

Has religion convinced you that this world is a Mess?? When you look at this world and see a Masterpiece, then I will know you at least have some really Understanding of what everything is really all about.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

The idea of hell-fire has been misinterpreted to men's disadvantage since it has distorted the truth about God, life and death. The Bible explains that when a person dies he feels and thinks nothing. Since the Bible speaks about a resurrection of the dead, when a person is brought back to life he again thinks and feels.

 

[stvdv]

So let me say that if I understand it correctly, abortion is removal of a living fetus, causing it to die

I agree, killing a living being is killing. So, I guess removing dead fetus to save mother's life is okay from Bible POV too.

I am trying my best not to do kill living creatures. I failed miserably yesterday though, and it felt bad.

I cleaned up the garden, and suddenly I stumbled on hundreds of ants, they were very angry that I destroyed their habitat, and they bit me. Being bit I killed a few, most I brushed away. And it really struck me I killed a living creature...tiny little creature, just protecting his "house".

Imagine killing a human being, must have a huge impact on human psyche. Every action creates karma

 

[stvdv]

it's considered a crime to kill a newly born infant. My life and decisions are before God, in other words, He sees my mind and heart. I pray when faced with such a critical decision and ask for God's direction

I checked Veda scriptures, they are very strict and clear against killing any creature even more strict than Bible it seems to me

I never heard Sai Baba speak about abortion, but I read, that when asked, He replied once something like "no, no abortion ... very bad... use mind control" (but that was a specific answer to that person, not in a public discourse. I try to find more, and I hope he wrote about it, or spoke about it in public discourse)

But I think I know the answer, as he said "Hurt Never".

 

[joelr]

I watched a CNN cast condemn officers for not storming the classroom and taking out the gunman. One person even suggested those officers are not worthy to be cops, and should hand in their badge.
I watched the video - muted of course, since I didn't want to hear anything.
I think the first responders were not equipped either mentally, physically, or experienced enough to handle the situation.
The trained and equipped officers arrived 30 minutes later, and moved in a little after 15 minutes - no doubt after a briefing of the situation and planned action - taking out the gunman.
I think those CNN "experts" owe those cops an apology.
It seems many other people... including an ex chief of police agree with them.
What do you think... Would it have been wise for those cops to have stormed the classroom? What do you think might have been the outcome?

The cops waited over 1 hour. They had confirmation there were gravely injured and an active shooter. Yes they should have had a team go to the window while a second group went to the door. With a distraction at the window they might have got him or it would have taken a few people to get shot. But these kids needed attention, some could have been saved and he could open fire at will. They needed help.
At the least when the shield arrived they should have gone right away. They thought the door was locked, someone needed to check it. If he fired at them a team outside could have fired from the window.

You don't need to be mentally equipped? They had training and weapons and there are children being murdered? They knew some were alive. You run in. The reason people hold back in hostage situations is so none of the hostages gets killed. This was different. With the shield it would have gone just like it did. He was hiding in a closet. If officers came in in a line and spread out he would have had to open the closet door and they may have gotten him first. The CNN does not owe any apologys.

 

[joelr]

Even if it means dying foolishly?

It's not dying foolishly with teachers and children bleeding out, others laying on the floor waiting to be executed. A line of officers entering the room would have got him. He might have hit an officer or a few but it's worth it. The children did die foolishly. The ones who needed immediate medical attention also did. They needed to get in there. One officer tried and they held him back.

 

[joelr]

So the situation does not matter?
Why not rush into a building with a hostage situation, and squash SWAT? No need to call them in any situation.
They should not even take cover behind their vehicles either. Just stand in the open with guns blazing.

The first responders - the cops that went into the building 2 minutes behind the gunman, were the cops that were chasing the truck the gunman lost control of, and crashed.
That's why they got there so quickly.

They are regular street cops, who police the streets, and deal with traffic violations.
They give chase where the criminal tries to get away.
They call SWAT where there is an armed and dangerous menace. They don't put their lives in danger. They wait until SWAT arrives.
That's not wise?

I think people watch too many movies, and then think that's how real life plays out.

Then when cops shoot, out of fear for their lives, they are called criminals.

It's a tough job. Most cops work hard at doing a good job.
Some of these are fathers and mothers, husbands and wives, who want to go home to their families They deserve some credit, I think.

Getting the full picture helps too.

It's not a hostage situation. It's a deranged person who just executed half the room and stopped for an unknown reason. You need to think through what was going on in that room, what happened, how gory it was and that this was children. A few may have been saved by emergency surgery. The cops had military rifles and could shoot. As soon as they turned the corner and had eyes on him they would have put rounds in him.

 

[1213]

...Why are you so concerned about where he got the funds...

Because I think it would tell a lot about why it happened. But, as said before, it is not the only issue, the other significant matter is who gave the orders for the police to basically protect the shooter and the massacre.

 

[YoursTrue]

Thank you

I gave @nPeace a similar link going more into detail, linking it to "Pro Choice" movement. I like your link for the clarity

Your link covers many scenarios except one, and a major one

"What if fetus dies, but does not come out as in miscarriage":
a) Just let the woman die; never abortion
b) Abort the dead fetus; as in medical need

Very clear situation, needing a clear solution:
I vote for option "b) Abort the dead fetus"

What do you choose?

I'd have to look at it more closely. The Bible was written many years ago and medical science was not the same as it is today.

 

[YoursTrue]

It's not a hostage situation. It's a deranged person who just executed half the room and stopped for an unknown reason. You need to think through what was going on in that room, what happened, how gory it was and that this was children. A few may have been saved by emergency surgery. The cops had military rifles and could shoot. As soon as they turned the corner and had eyes on him they would have put rounds in him.

I feel sorry for the police. If they shot at the horrible perpetrator and by accident shot a few kids, I have a feeling the police would be sued or blamed. It's an awful, awful situation.

 

[YoursTrue]

You do not Understand. WE are all learning. Unconditional Love is not an easy thing to do. There is lots to learn before one understands what the best choices really are. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will make the Best choices. All the others choices will no longer be viable choices one could make.

God is already at that Higher Level. Mankind is walking that way but it seem to me to be ever so slowly. That's OK!! There is no time limit of learning.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Can you lease explain again (maybe I missed it) what is "unconditional love."

 

[YoursTrue]

You do not Understand. WE are all learning. Unconditional Love is not an easy thing to do. There is lots to learn before one understands what the best choices really are. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will make the Best choices. All the others choices will no longer be viable choices one could make.

God is already at that Higher Level. Mankind is walking that way but it seem to me to be ever so slowly. That's OK!! There is no time limit of learning.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Let's see how clear this is to you, if possible: if you knew your adult child was a thief, stole whatever he could from you and others, would you give him shelter in your home?

 

[nPeace]

I agree, killing a living being is killing. So, I guess removing dead fetus to save mother's life is okay from Bible POV too.

Removing the dead fetus from the body.

https://www.reference.com/world-view/happens-dead-fetus-left-inside-mother-s-womb-484c26c44318a437
ExitCare Patient Information states that treatment for a dead fetus should take place within two weeks. If a dead fetus is left in the mother’s uterus for more than two weeks, she may experience infection in the fetal materials and an increase in bleeding. Medscape warns that if a dead fetus remains in utero beyond three to four weeks, the mother can develop problems with blood clotting, known as coagulopathy.

According to ExitCare Patient Information, if the fetus is not removed in a timely manner, the mother can develop disseminated intravascular coagulation. This problem with blood clotting leads to excessive bleeding, which can cause damage to internal organs as well as the muscles. Excessive blood flow can cause ruptures in the organ tissues and blood vessels and create breeding grounds for infection. The mother is at risk for blood loss, with complications from toxins and bacteria. This can be a life-threatening situation. Early diagnosis is the key to prevent such complications. However, once the diagnosis of the fetal demise is confirmed, it does not mean that the doctors can take the fetus out of the uterus right away. The doctors typically wait for the mother to be ready emotionally, before they remove the stillborn.

I am trying my best not to do kill living creatures. I failed miserably yesterday though, and it felt bad.

I cleaned up the garden, and suddenly I stumbled on hundreds of ants, they were very angry that I destroyed their habitat, and they bit me. Being bit I killed a few, most I brushed away. And it really struck me I killed a living creature...tiny little creature, just protecting his "house".

Imagine killing a human being, must have a huge impact on human psyche. Every action creates karma

You are a caring soul.

I always try to get God's mind on the matter, from the pages of his word - the Bible.

Genesis 1:29-30 Eat fruit and vegetables
Genesis 9:1-7 Free to kill animals for food.

What about killing animals for protection? The Bible does not condemn this, but each person should decide.

For example, a black mamba corners you in your shed, and lunges at you. Will you swing the sword at it, or...
Your life is important too.

You might need to protect a small child, a boa constructor seeks out as prey, or even a sheep.
Your neighbor will be thankful if you rescued their baby from certain harm. You make the decision, of course.

King David took care of his sheep, and protected them from predators.
(1 Samuel 17:34-37) 34 David then said to Saul: “Your servant became a shepherd of his father’s flock, and a lion came, also a bear, and each carried off a sheep from the flock. 35 I went out after it and struck it down and rescued it from its mouth. When it rose up against me, I grabbed it by its fur and struck it down and put it to death. 36 Your servant struck down both the lion and the bear, and this uncircumcised Philistine will become like one of them, for he has taunted the battle lines of the living God.” 37 Then David added: “Jehovah, who rescued me from the claws of the lion and the bear, he is the one who will rescue me from the hand of this Philistine.” At this Saul said to David: “Go, and may Jehovah be with you.”

 

[nPeace]

The cops waited over 1 hour.

That's not what I read, or saw in the video.

They had confirmation there were gravely injured and an active shooter. Yes they should have had a team go to the window while a second group went to the door. With a distraction at the window they might have got him or it would have taken a few people to get shot. But these kids needed attention, some could have been saved and he could open fire at will. They needed help.

In other words, they didn't know the outcome, but regardless of how bloody and deadly it could get, give no consideration to those things?

At the least when the shield arrived they should have gone right away. They thought the door was locked, someone needed to check it. If he fired at them a team outside could have fired from the window.

Do you know why they did not "go right away"?
I don't mean from guessing. I mean according to the facts.

You don't need to be mentally equipped? They had training and weapons and there are children being murdered? They knew some were alive. You run in. The reason people hold back in hostage situations is so none of the hostages gets killed. This was different. With the shield it would have gone just like it did. He was hiding in a closet. If officers came in in a line and spread out he would have had to open the closet door and they may have gotten him first. The CNN does not owe any apologys.

...but you just said... "he could open fire at will".
I don't understand then, how you now say ... "The reason people hold back in hostage situations is so none of the hostages gets killed. This was different."

How is it different, then?

 

[nPeace]

It's not dying foolishly with teachers and children bleeding out, others laying on the floor waiting to be executed. A line of officers entering the room would have got him. He might have hit an officer or a few but it's worth it. The children did die foolishly. The ones who needed immediate medical attention also did. They needed to get in there. One officer tried and they held him back.

Do you know why they held him back? If he had gotten shot to death, would you have considered it good... because, at least he tried?

 

[nPeace]

It's not a hostage situation. It's a deranged person who just executed half the room and stopped for an unknown reason. You need to think through what was going on in that room, what happened, how gory it was and that this was children. A few may have been saved by emergency surgery. The cops had military rifles and could shoot. As soon as they turned the corner and had eyes on him they would have put rounds in him.

In him, or the children? How do you know?

 

[nPeace]

I feel sorry for the police. If they shot at the horrible perpetrator and by accident shot a few kids, I have a feeling the police would be sued or blamed. It's an awful, awful situation.

Yes. If they shot a child, they would be blamed too... for not waiting, and using good judgment. I just saw that in a police shooting.
If they delay, they get blamed for not shooting.
They can't win... no matter what they do.

 

[stvdv]

Removing the dead fetus from the body.

https://www.reference.com/world-view/happens-dead-fetus-left-inside-mother-s-womb-484c26c44318a437
ExitCare Patient Information states that treatment for a dead fetus should take place within two weeks

Thank you. Useful to know

Interesting, they wait till mother is emotional ready to abort dead fetus.

You are a caring soul.

I always try to get God's mind on the matter, from the pages of his word - the Bible.

Genesis 1:29-30 Eat fruit and vegetables
Genesis 9:1-7 Free to kill animals for food.

What about killing animals for protection? The Bible does not condemn this, but each person should decide.

For example, a black mamba corners you in your shed, and lunges at you. Will you swing the sword at it, or...
Your life is important too

Thank you. I like Gen. 1:29-30, wonderful how God created everything perfect, with all the little details

However, in my case these verses did not apply. I didn't eat the ants, and they are not dangerous like a mamba.

Sai Baba said, when asked about flies etc in your house, "Their Dharma is to not enter your house, they should stay outside". So it is not Adharmic to kill uninvited "guests"

 

[stvdv]

(Ephesians 6:11-12) 11 Put on the complete suit of armor from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts of the Devil; 12 because we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places

Thank you for this verse. I like JW translations