Do You Agree?

[YoursTrue]

One can never assume stories written by mankind portrait reality or God. Holy books written by mankind reflect mankind more than anything else.

God is Unconditional Love. There is nothing anyone could do prevent themselves from being Eternal.

God isn't making laws or rules for anyone. Mankind is the one doing that. God simply teaches one what their free choices really mean. When one understands all sides, intelligence will choose the best choices. There really is no need to value the petty things mankind holds so dear. Each, in time, will Discover this for themselves.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Can you please explain what is your believe about unconditional love that you believe God has? The Bible says that God IS love. But love doesn't mean it's always unconditional or without restrictions. 1 John 4 - "Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love."

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, that IS the correct one

The last line is about the mother dies as a result of impact that killed baby

I gave my view that this could be interpreted to mean that abortion is allowed if mothers life can be saved.

Also, medical science improved, hence naturally God did not advice such dangerous procedure in the year 0; far too risky back then.

Now it's different, hence I would not pin God down to what God gave in Bible 2000 years prior.

Only God can answer what God wants in that case. We can only speculate. We can really believe we know, even claim to know, but still it's not 100%

Impose on God what He wants sounds pretty much like blasphemy to me, as in "sit in God's chair"; Sai Baba made clear that we better not do that, unless we "know", as in different from belief, as is "hearsay" vs "direct knowing"

Religious Forums

or more clear
Douay-Rheims Bible
But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life

Hello again.
Thanks for bringing it up. So sorry, sometimes words and thoughts get lost. I know I am imperfect (i.e., make mistakes), thus I checked the Douay Rheims you provided, and here is what it says:
"If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award. 23But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life, 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
The American Standard Version puts verse 23 this way: "But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life," Before that verse, it says: "“And when men are scuffling and run against a pregnant woman and she has a premature birth, but there is no bodily damage, he shall pay such fine as the woman’s husband fixes for him, and give it with arbitrators."

Very interesting question you bring up, so I did some reading about this point in Watchtower publications. It brings out also about different translations. (Questions From Readers)
So there could be a number of outcomes of the injury. First consider the woman. She might be seriously hurt, but not fatally. Or the damage could have caused her death. If her pregnancy was quite advanced, the blow might have brought on early labor so that she prematurely delivered a live baby. Or, the hurt coulld have been so bad that it caused an ending of the life developing in her womb. So clearly it covered a range of possibilities. Thank you for your question.
The article also brings out differences of translations as well as the Hebrew in detail. And ends up by recognizing the seriousness of harmfully ending a life.

 

[Bird123]

I see that death is not life. Life is about living, that's for sure. Death is not about living. When we're alive we know people die. We know we face death, and/or our life ends. But if you think it goes on, from my understanding of the Bible, when a person or animal dies, they are dead. Not alive. (There's a difference.)

WE are Spiritual beings in our true natures. I have direct experience to this. Have you not been able to tell the difference between who you really are and your physical body??
There are reasons one has a physical body. There are reasons for death. The physical body dies, however we are all eternal. Animals are the same.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Unconditional love? Please explain what you think that means. Oh, you think we live eternally regardless of anything? Oh well...Just to let you know, I believe that death is not life. Death is the end of life.

Unconditional Love has no conditions. It's just Love regardless. Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[YoursTrue]

WE are Spiritual beings in our true natures. I have direct experience to this. Have you not been able to tell the difference between who you really are and your physical body??
There are reasons one has a physical body. There are reasons for death. The physical body dies, however we are all eternal. Animals are the same.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I see clearly that there are some people who claim connection to the unseen, or claim to see things others don't see literally. Since I believe what the Bible says, not what some shaman or fortune teller may say, we are subject to death because we inherit sin from Adam. That is very clear to me. Thanks by the way.

 

[Bird123]

Can you please explain what is your believe about unconditional love that you believe God has? The Bible says that God IS love. But love doesn't mean it's always unconditional or without restrictions. 1 John 4 - "Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love."

Holy books reflect mankind. I have found no religion that really Understands God. God hides nothing. It is all staring us in the face.

Mankind destroys what it can not easily fix. They invent Hell. With God, no child will be left behind.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[YoursTrue]

Unconditional Love has no conditions. It's just Love regardless. Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

A person can love someone let's say in a marriage, but that person may commit adultery or some other brazen act. Would you think unconditional love would not have consequences?

 

[YoursTrue]

Holy books reflect mankind. I have found no religion that really Understands God. God hides nothing. It is all staring us in the face.

Mankind destroys what it can not easily fix. They invent Hell. With God, no child will be left behind.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Unfortunately, the subject of hell has been distorted by many religions.

 

[YoursTrue]

Thank you so much for your feedback. We are lucky to have JW around who know much about Bible verses

And what I read here, correct me if my English fails please:
1) If men accidental push woman and child dies (miscarry) then man must pay money
2) Same as 1) BUT now child dies AND mother dies then man must pay with his life

If I understood correctly then this proves that the" Bible - God" judges firmer IF woman dies in the proces

Using my discrimination and logic thinking

Woman should not die in the proces. So, abortion is sometimes permissible if woman's life is saved, right?

And that has been exactly my point all the time. I don't like abortion, but sometimes a choice needs to be made, choose wisely the best of 2 bad choices

You might want to check this out, where I learn something, and thanks btw, for your question. Questions From Readers — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)
Goes into the subject of abortion and Exodus 21 as you bring up.

 

[stvdv]

Hello again.
Thanks for bringing it up. So sorry, sometimes words and thoughts get lost. I know I am imperfect (i.e., make mistakes), thus I checked the Douay Rheims you provided, and here is what it says:
"If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award. 23But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life, 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
The American Standard Version puts verse 23 this way: "But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life," Before that verse, it says: "“And when men are scuffling and run against a pregnant woman and she has a premature birth, but there is no bodily damage, he shall pay such fine as the woman’s husband fixes for him, and give it with arbitrators."

Very interesting question you bring up, so I did some reading about this point in Watchtower publications. It brings out also about different translations. (Questions From Readers)
So there could be a number of outcomes of the injury. First consider the woman. She might be seriously hurt, but not fatally. Or the damage could have caused her death. If her pregnancy was quite advanced, the blow might have brought on early labor so that she prematurely delivered a live baby. Or, the hurt coulld have been so bad that it caused an ending of the life developing in her womb. So clearly it covered a range of possibilities. Thank you for your question.
The article also brings out differences of translations as well as the Hebrew in detail. And ends up by recognizing the seriousness of harmfully ending a life.

Hello sister

Thanks again for your feedback

Amazing how many details the Bible provides. And indeed, I also came across different translations; "premature" and "miscarriage".

a) Translation "miscarriage" leads, by deduction, to abortion might be okay from Bible POV to make sure mother doesn't die too as a result from not medical removing from the dead fetus from the womb

b) Translation "premature" does NOT give information whether the life of the mother is important enough or not to save by aborting the dead fetus

(What do you think of below reasoning; also @nPeace ):

IMO
Common sense tells me "IF God deems the life of a fetus very important THEN the life of the mother is equally or more important AND must be saved, because the mother was a fetus once too, and is now vulnerable like a baby too, depending on others (to remove the dead fetus to save her life)"

Conclusion: Aborting dead fetus to save the mother's life is paramount from Bible POV, if medical expertise is available, because saving life is important

Note: Not trying to remove (abort) dead fetus from mother's womb would be purely political strategy and therefore Adharmic (Dharmic leads to God, Adharmic is the opposite)
Meaning: sacrifice the mother out of fear that by once allowing abortion, people will demand abortion too for other cases not provided in the Bible
@stvdvRF

 

[stvdv]

You might want to check this out, where I learn something, and thanks btw, for your question. Questions From Readers — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)
Goes into the subject of abortion and Exodus 21 as you bring up.

Thank you

I gave @nPeace a similar link going more into detail, linking it to "Pro Choice" movement. I like your link for the clarity

Your link covers many scenarios except one, and a major one

"What if fetus dies, but does not come out as in miscarriage":
a) Just let the woman die; never abortion
b) Abort the dead fetus; as in medical need

Very clear situation, needing a clear solution:
I vote for option "b) Abort the dead fetus"

What do you choose?

 

[1213]

They're not my words, I posted overwhelming objective evidence, you failed to address any of it in any way beyond flat denial, the evidence supports the conclusion as it is derived from multiple examples over decades of research, and the rates of violent gun crime and murder in the US are significantly higher, enough to provide an irrefutable conclusion, you're simply indulging in hand waving, because you have no credible answer, beyond wild unevidenced conspiracies, and the "nu uh" argument, and don't like the obvious conclusions these facts support.

1, The US has one of the highest rates of gun violence and murder in the world...

Even if they have more guns, it is not the reason for the violence. Guns don't act on their own. It is the people who kill and those who are willing to kill, can do it with illegal guns as well. Violence stops only when people understand it is wrong. I think people in US should think, what is wrong in their minds when they seem to be more evil and murderous than other nations. I think all people should actually think, what makes US people many times more murderous than other nations.

Banning guns is not a good solution for the rot in the mind of the people. It is only solution for the regime to gain more power and to make it easier for them to oppress the people.

 

[1213]

It's over half, and since abortions are legal, this post ironically shows that you don't know what murder means. Or that abortions don't involve babies, but generally a blastocyst or zygote, or developing foetus that is little more than a clump of insentient cells.

So, when killing babies is not a murder, why would it be a murder if you kill bigger babies? Don't you understand that relativism leads to situation where anyone can choose randomly who can be killed and who can't.

 

[1213]

Apparently he purchased them legally for his 18th birthday. So I'm guessing that he probably got some birthday money or saved up the money or something. That's a pretty normal thing. I don't see why you think this is a particularly salient point that indicates governmental involvement. Perhaps you could elucidate.
...

Maybe I have wrong information, but by what I know, they were very expensive. I would like to know where he got the money, because it usually leads to the truth of what led to the event.

 

[SkepticThinker]

People? People don't usually misunderstanding my posts.
Atheists do.

Ah, so atheists aren't people. Got it. What a loving Christian attitude you've got there.

Oh yeah, right. They are people too.

Hilarious.

Consider my suggestion. If Atheists are in the constant habit of misunderstanding... not only my posts... and I can't break RF rules to show you all those places... Then ................
I'll offer my suggestion, only if you ask for it.

I've misunderstood your arguments, according to you. Another poster just misunderstood your arguments, according to you.
Neither time did you seek to clarify your position. And neither time did you acknowledge there may be a failure of communication on your part.
Instead, you attempt to dehumanize atheists.
Is that how you think honest discussion is carried out?
You can climb down off your high horse anytime - you don't belong there.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Maybe I have wrong information, but by what I know, they were very expensive. I would like to know where he got the money, because it usually leads to the truth of what led to the event.

He probably got some money for his 18th birthday as tends to happen.
Do you think the government sent it to him or something?? Why are you so concerned about where he got the funds to buy guns and not at all concerned with the fact that mentally unstable people have seemingly unfettered access to firearms?

 

[stvdv]

Also @stvdv. Take note please, that the only Bible translations saying what you assumed, are the paraphrased - the ones that edited the text according to what they think - assume.
Exodus 21:23 But if a serious injury results, then you must require a life for a life--

Maybe they're less innocent than you think

 

[stvdv]

There seems to be some sort of epidemic of people misunderstanding the words you post.

If that kept happening to me, I might try looking inward a bit.

I understand @nPeace quite well
But English is not my first language
That might have something to do with it

 

[Bird123]

I see clearly that there are some people who claim connection to the unseen, or claim to see things others don't see literally. Since I believe what the Bible says, not what some shaman or fortune teller may say, we are subject to death because we inherit sin from Adam. That is very clear to me. Thanks by the way.

Find a dark quiet comfortable room away from all distractions. Close your eyes and focus inward. Say to yourself "it's Me" That is who you really are.

If you still can not tell the difference between who you are and that physical body seek out the very youngest of children. Many can easily tell the difference. They must be very young since this physical world has so much sensory input it isn't long before one is seduced into thinking this physical world is all there is.

If you really watch the youngest children you can see the reflection of God in them. This is so because they have just left God's arms. Once again, these children must be very young for it isn't long before their choices changes things.

Adam and Eve is just a story. Where are the creation details. Creation is much more than Poof. Further, if you really knew God, you would know that it has never ever been about sin.

Be who you must. It's a part of the plan!! Believe what you wish. I am not wanting anyone to believe anything. I am merely placing Real Truth in the world that can be Discovered by anyone who seeks.

I could never rely on mere beliefs especially when those beliefs do not add up. My journey to Discovery started years and years ago when I became an adult and started to question everything.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

A person can love someone let's say in a marriage, but that person may commit adultery or some other brazen act. Would you think unconditional love would not have consequences?

You do not Understand. WE are all learning. Unconditional Love is not an easy thing to do. There is lots to learn before one understands what the best choices really are. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will make the Best choices. All the others choices will no longer be viable choices one could make.

God is already at that Higher Level. Mankind is walking that way but it seem to me to be ever so slowly. That's OK!! There is no time limit of learning.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!