Do you as a Muslim believe in women's equality?

[Godobeyer]

There are equal in rights .
right to job agreed
right to drive agreed
right to education agreed


btw
imagine that women protestes against period or stop beieng attractive to men,or stop beieng pregnante , TO BE EQUAL PHYSICALLY AMD MENTALITY TO MEN !!!

 

[Estro Felino]

In Islam both men and woman are obligated to be married if they are mentally, physically and financially able.
Marriage is considered a religious obligation for both men and women.
We consider marriage to be 1/2 of our worship.

but not before the law and before the state authority. Given that resources are exhaustible, the state can't face overpopulation.
I think we are mixing up religion with law-politics here

 

[Woodrow LI]

but not before the law and before the state authority. Given that resources are exhaustible, the state can't face overpopulation.
I think we are mixing up religion with law-politics here

Here there is a conflict.and one reason a Muslim is to leave a country if the laws prevent them from following their religion.

It will come down to if the person is practicing Islam to the best of their ability. It will seldom affect a Muslim as most do prefer marriage. no law required.

While most of us do not believe not getting married will send a person to to hell We do believe it may reduce the benefits they would gain.by getting married

We do believe all who die as a Muslim will enter heaven, and about the only sins that will condemn them to hell are shirk and suicide.

 

[Draka]

If a Muslim woman were to marry a man whom did not have any religion couldn't she still remain a Muslim? Whether he was atheist or a spiritual but non-religious or non-denominational person, would it matter? If he has no religion for her to follow or support, and he supports her in believing and following whatever religion fulfills her, then could she not remain a Muslim?

 

[YmirGF]

If a Muslim woman were to marry a man whom did not have any religion couldn't she still remain a Muslim? Whether he was atheist or a spiritual but non-religious or non-denominational person, would it matter? If he has no religion for her to follow or support, and he supports her in believing and following whatever religion fulfills her, then could she not remain a Muslim?

My guess would be no, that this is not possible. The idea of atheism is still pretty new and wasn't conceived of in the formative stages of Islam. If the man accepted Islam, all would be peachy. It will be interesting to see if Woodrow Li addresses this @Woodrow LI

 

[Draka]

My guess would be no, that this is not possible. The idea of atheism is still pretty new and wasn't conceived of in the formative stages of Islam. If the man accepted Islam, all would be peachy. It will be interesting to see if Woodrow Li addresses this @Woodrow LI

Well, I wasn't just thinking of atheists, but as I said, someone who had their own beliefs, but not really followed a religion. Someone open and allowing of others' beliefs. Whether they have some of their own or not.

 

[Woodrow LI]

If a Muslim woman were to marry a man whom did not have any religion couldn't she still remain a Muslim? Whether he was atheist or a spiritual but non-religious or non-denominational person, would it matter? If he has no religion for her to follow or support, and he supports her in believing and following whatever religion fulfills her, then could she not remain a Muslim?

My guess would be no, that this is not possible. The idea of atheism is still pretty new and wasn't conceived of in the formative stages of Islam. If the man accepted Islam, all would be peachy. It will be interesting to see if Woodrow Li addresses this @Woodrow LI

there are strong indications that the Muslims at the time of Muhammad(saaws) were aware of Atheists
Three distinct groups of non-Muslims were identified Polytheist, People of the Book and unbelievers. (Kafirun)
Kafirun in a broad sense is used to designate any non-Muslim, but looking at the way the terms Mushikrun, Kafirun and Ahl al-Kitab are used. It does leave one with the impression that Kafirun meant people that did not worship any deity. (Trivia for the curious: Kafir is the singular of kafirun)

With that said I do not see how a Marriage between a Muslim (Male or Female) and an Atheist could be a marriage in the Islamic concept of Marriage as one's spouse is half of one's worship. If one marries an Atheist they would only be fulfilling half of their De'en as there would be no worship from the spouse.

 

[Draka]

there are strong indications that the Muslims at the time of Muhammad(saaws) were aware of Atheists
Three distinct groups of non-Muslims were identified Polytheist, People of the Book and unbelievers. (Kafirun)
Kafirun in a broad sense is used to designate any non-Muslim, but looking at the way the terms Mushikrun, Kafirun and Ahl al-Kitab are used. It does leave one with the impression that Kafirun meant people that did not worship any deity. (Trivia for the curious: Kafir is the singular of kafirun)

With that said I do not see how a Marriage between a Muslim (Male or Female) and an Atheist could be a marriage in the Islamic concept of Marriage as one's spouse is half of one's worship. If one marries an Atheist they would only be fulfilling half of their De'en as there would be no worship from the spouse.

As I said though, I didn't just mean atheists only. There are others. People who have no real religion really, but hold some kind of belief. Whether their belief be more pantheist, or panentheist, or something else. If a person has some belief in some form of deity, but doesn't judge others nor restrict others when it comes to their beliefs, then why couldn't they be a marriage match for a Muslim? And if a male Muslim could marry someone outside of their religion then why couldn't a female Muslim marry someone like I described?

 

[Woodrow LI]

As I said though, I didn't just mean atheists only. There are others. People who have no real religion really, but hold some kind of belief. Whether their belief be more pantheist, or panentheist, or something else. If a person has some belief in some form of deity, but doesn't judge others nor restrict others when it comes to their beliefs, then why couldn't they be a marriage match for a Muslim? And if a male Muslim could marry someone outside of their religion then why couldn't a female Muslim marry someone like I described?

One if the man is not engaging in any worship. there is no marriage as half of the women's deen is missing.
If he is worshiping the woman is to support his worship, which means she would not be a Muslim

Roughly this means if a woman marries a non-Muslim she is to convert to his belief or non-belief. bit of a quandary as if a Muslim leaves Islam they have committed the sin of Shirk and is condemned to eternal hell

 

[Draka]

Why is a woman to support her husband's faith and a man is not to support his wife's faith? Why is the faith of a woman not as important as that of a man? It seems it is made a duty for the woman to religiously do as her husband does, but not for a man to religiously do as his wife does. Doesn't this speak to a basic inequality?

 

[JayJayDee]

With so much bad publicity surrounding the Muslim faith, it is good to get first hand information in a balanced and reasonable way. Thank you Woodrow Ll for providing it.

Can I ask why you believe that so many Muslim countries experience problems with extremists? It seems to many westerners that if those in Muslim nations were happy, they would stay where they are, but many flee because of the conduct of those who are not really following the faith, but using it as a blind for cold blooded murder and an often violently enforced faith.

Sometimes the ones who have fled, bring their problems to their new home or they abuse our social security system. I know that for laid back Aussies, we have little tolerance for people of any nation or religion who want to interfere with our relatively relaxed way of life and who take advantage of our hospitality.

After the siege in Sydney last month where an unbalanced Muslim fellow, known to police, was shot and so were two of his innocent hostages, those who supported Muslims such as yourself, (just viewed as fellow Aussies) offered them protection on public transport from the backlash that they felt would inevitably follow. It was called "I'll ride with you" and it was a really nice gesture to show that we do not lump all Muslims in together. The Aussie Muslims mourned with the rest of Australia at such an atrocity.

Your responses thus far are very well reasoned and most acceptable.
I find it sad to think that if all Muslims were like you, we would not have terror in the world.
It also makes me realize that if all Christians were like Jesus Christ, we wouldn't have wars or bloodshed either.

Having said that, I understand that Muslims do not have an exclusive on terrorism. It was going on in the western world long before Muslim extremists hit the headlines. The IRA were blowing people up in Britain and Ireland only a few decades ago and they were supposed to be Christians!

Do you think that the differences between the sects of Islam are to blame for the problems or is it the extreme views of the more vocal leaders within the sects that are the stirring up the ones with violent tendencies?

Brainwashing and playing on emotions seems to play a big part.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Why is a woman to support her husband's faith and a man is not to support his wife's faith? Why is the faith of a woman not as important as that of a man? It seems it is made a duty for the woman to religiously do as her husband does, but not for a man to religiously do as his wife does. Doesn't this speak to a basic inequality?

Unequal but fair
First keep in mind we are speaking of a Muslim wife. Not if the wife is a different faith from the Husband
A Muslim woman has different obligations from a Muslim man in regards to worship. To a Muslim all factors of our life is part of our de'en. to a Muslim. religion and life style are the same word de'en. All things a Muslim does is an act of worship.
Part of a man's deen is how he treats his wife and how well he supports her in accordance with her requests in the Nikkah. In exchange the Muslim wife as part of her worship is to support her Husband in all of his endeavors. As the wife is Muslim and the Husband is Muslim this should not be any conflict as the wife will also be practicing her religion.
Part of what the wife can do is encourage her husband to say the required prayers, help make it easy for him to go to a Mosque for prayers.If there are children it is her obligation to teach the children about Islam.
In other words she sets the example for being a practicing Muslim and does not allow anything forbidden to come into the house. (In Islam the wife owns the house) In the event the husband has more than one wife, each wife is to own her own house and all houses have to be of equal value.
If a man has one wife and buys her a 200,000 dollar house marries a second wife that demands a 400,000 house he has to upgrade wife one to an equal house. This is a very strong deterrent to a man taking any additional wives. think of a guy married to three women and takes a 4th wife that demands a 2,000,000 dollar estate.
While it is permissable for a man to have up to 4 wives it is very discouraged and impossible for most men to ever do, if they are going to abide by Islam. A wise woman demands in her Nikkah a house of such a high value, he could never afford a second one of the same value.
A Muslim man has many obligations to fulfill for his wife. Is it asking too much that she support him in his worship?especially if you take into consideration the wife in the Nikkah can require the Husband to hire her household help such as servents, cooks, chauffers etc.
In Saudi where women are forbidden to drive it is essentialy mandatory the husband hire his wife a chauffer. In addition since an adult woman can not be alone with a man who is not mahram to her, the chauffer has to be a close relative of the wife.
Both husbands and wives have very many rights, they may not be the same, but they are of equal value.

 

[Draka]

So what makes it impossible for Muslim wife to support a non-Muslim husband? You are saying it is a duty of a Muslim wife to nag a husband to pray? One can be supportive without telling someone what to do. And if a Muslim man marries a non-Muslim woman he obviously isn't getting the exact same relationship he would if he married a Muslim woman. Why is that allowed or ok and not the other way?

 

[Woodrow LI]

So what makes it impossible for Muslim wife to support a non-Muslim husband? You are saying it is a duty of a Muslim wife to nag a husband to pray? One can be supportive without telling someone what to do. And if a Muslim man marries a non-Muslim woman he obviously isn't getting the exact same relationship he would if he married a Muslim woman. Why is that allowed or ok and not the other way?

in simple words by supporting a religion other than Islam, she is no longer practicing Islam.
A Muslim is forbidden to participate in the religious rituals of any other religion.
I carried my reply too far, while nagging to pray could be acceptable for the most part the support would be along the lines of keeping the house halal, no pictures on the walls, no statues no religious symbols of worship, Not allowing non-Muslims to touch a Qur'an, Being certain she does not bring any forbidden foods into the house. Being certain all who come into the house take their shoes ofr first. Keeping one part of the house suitable to say the obligatory prayers
etc

As to why it became permissible for a Muslm male to marry a Christian, Jewish or Sabeen woman (Without her needing to convert) In the early centuries there were many times a Muslim man would never meet an unmarried Muslim woman. While it has always been permitted to marry a non-Muslim woman it was never encouraged and if possible a Muslim man should marry a Muslim woman. It is very much frowned upon if a Muslim man marries a non-Muslim if there is even one unmarried Muslim woman in his community.

 

[Woodrow LI]

With so much bad publicity surrounding the Muslim faith, it is good to get first hand information in a balanced and reasonable way. Thank you Woodrow Ll for providing it.

Can I ask why you believe that so many Muslim countries experience problems with extremists? It seems to many westerners that if those in Muslim nations were happy, they would stay where they are, but many flee because of the conduct of those who are not really following the faith, but using it as a blind for cold blooded murder and an often violently enforced faith.

Sometimes the ones who have fled, bring their problems to their new home or they abuse our social security system. I know that for laid back Aussies, we have little tolerance for people of any nation or religion who want to interfere with our relatively relaxed way of life and who take advantage of our hospitality.

After the siege in Sydney last month where an unbalanced Muslim fellow, known to police, was shot and so were two of his innocent hostages, those who supported Muslims such as yourself, (just viewed as fellow Aussies) offered them protection on public transport from the backlash that they felt would inevitably follow. It was called "I'll ride with you" and it was a really nice gesture to show that we do not lump all Muslims in together. The Aussie Muslims mourned with the rest of Australia at such an atrocity.

Your responses thus far are very well reasoned and most acceptable.
I find it sad to think that if all Muslims were like you, we would not have terror in the world.
It also makes me realize that if all Christians were like Jesus Christ, we wouldn't have wars or bloodshed either.

Having said that, I understand that Muslims do not have an exclusive on terrorism. It was going on in the western world long before Muslim extremists hit the headlines. The IRA were blowing people up in Britain and Ireland only a few decades ago and they were supposed to be Christians!

Do you think that the differences between the sects of Islam are to blame for the problems or is it the extreme views of the more vocal leaders within the sects that are the stirring up the ones with violent tendencies?

Brainwashing and playing on emotions seems to play a big part.

GOING BACWARDS.
I do not see sectarianism as being a major issue in most of the world.
While in the Mideast there are constant hostilities between Shi'ite and Sunni I do not believe that as being related to difference in sects, I see it as long established hostilities between Iranians and Arabs. In that part of the world nearly every Shi'ite is Iranian and every Sunni is Arab. It is the typical Aryan/Semitic clash that has existed for centuries and still takes place.

As for the rise in extremism this goes back about 200 years and the rise of Wahhabi. The al-Saud family is the largest support of them and many members of the al-Saud family are Wahhabi. When the al-Saud family conquered the Arabian peninsula in 1929, Wahhabi took off like a rocket and has posed a threat to Islam ever since.

 

[Chev Chelios]

To understand why that is fair, one needs to understand a woman's financial obligations. A woman has no responsibility for any household expenses, no matter how much money she has.. The male members of her family are obligated to provide all her household expenses. A woman's money is all hers alone and she is free to use as she pleases. With no financial obligations.
Also a woman can place in her nikkah (marriage contract) a dower that she desires, this can be very high and it is to be paid in full prior to the calculation of any inheritance. It is not uncommon that it is so high there is no money left over for any inheritance. I find it to be quite common for the inheritance to be simply symbolic and nobody gets anything except the widow, who collects the balance owed on her dower.

I love the duplicity of it all - on the one hand you try and make the case that Islam empowers women but in doing so you prove that this faiths theology actually places great boundaries on the life of a female. You seem to be completely oblivious to the fact you are mandating the idea that women are to be forever beholdent to, and dependent upon, the male! That is nothing like empowering! I see nothing empowering about being limited to what you can be or can do - why should a woman not be able to marry a non Moslem but a male can? Why should a woman have to forever rely on the male for financial support - as if she is not capable of taking care of herself?

Based on just what you have said I think we can clearly see that Islams texts are simply not egalitarian, rights seeking or giving documents, the Koran and Sahih Hadith fully endorses a paternalistic attitude towards women where men have been assigned for eternity a role of male guardianship and stewardship over the female .

All we need to do is look at lands shaped by Islam, especially those which instill Islamically inspired Shariah into their penal code. Do this and we see that Islam creates societies where It becomes routine for women to be assigned a 2nd class status - this is all clearly seen from the Koran and hadith and this is exactly what is seen in every country overshadowed by Islam. This is well illustrated by this very detailed study
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/GGGR14/GGGR_CompleteReport_2014.pdf
where you will see that a damning 19 of the bottom 20 worst countries in the world to be a woman are Moslem majority ones. That women face the worst subjugation in Islamic shaped lands goes beyond coincidence and you simply cannot divorce the effect of the faith from this clearly divinely inspired oppression of women seen in all countries dominated by Islam.

Finally, please do explain why it is that Islam deems a woman's testimony to be worth HALF of a man's Woodrow Li??

 

[oldbadger]

The real question is equality with what?

You needed to ask that?
You couldn't think of any areas of life, society, law etc where women's equality is important?

Sharia law will not accept a female rape victim's testimony.
Sharia Law halves the value of any female testimony.

Let's just keep it simple....... let's leave out the whole mass of other conditions where women should have equality....... let's just stick to the above two?

 

[Estro Felino]

We do believe all who die as a Muslim will enter heaven, and about the only sins that will condemn them to hell are shirk and suicide.

I hope you are kidding. Because the Muslims I know told me that murder is the gravest of sins and murderers will go to Hell.
May I kindly ask you what version of Islam do you practice?


As for the women's rights, the law is supposed to be secular in any country. So secularism implies juridic and economic equality before the law

 

[Estro Felino]

Here there is a conflict.and one reason a Muslim is to leave a country if the laws prevent them from following their religion.

I think that most Muslims turn Islam into a cultural identity, not into a religion. They mix up culture, language and religion into a same ideology.

I can give you an example as for immigration. Basically, most immigrants from Muslim countries, when they migrate to America, they do any thing to draw people's attention and to show off their cultural identity (wearing a veil, as for women) or using Arabic words in their speeches.

Lots of Italian immigrants did the opposite. Some of them did any thing to erase their cultural identity; lots of them even anglicized their surnames. Lots of women have their hair dyed blonde to hide the Mediterranean traces. And many of them go to the Catholic Church in secret.There are lots of Italo-Americans whose identity is hidden.

so I understand the Italian mentality because I am Italian too. we think that the American culture is superior to ours, so we are ashamed of our Italianness if we come to America.

Arab people think the opposite: they think that their cultural identity is superior to the American one.

That's why lots of Muslims want the sharia law

 

[Woodrow LI]

I think that most Muslims turn Islam into a cultural identity, not into a religion. They mix up culture, language and religion into a same ideology.

I can give you an example as for immigration. Basically, most immigrants from Muslim countries, when they migrate to America, they do any thing to draw people's attention and to show off their cultural identity (wearing a veil, as for women) or using Arabic words in their speeches.

Lots of Italian immigrants did the opposite. Some of them did any thing to erase their cultural identity; lots of them even anglicized their surnames. Lots of women have their hair dyed blonde to hide the Mediterranean traces. And many of them go to the Catholic Church in secret.There are lots of Italo-Americans whose identity is hidden.

so I understand the Italian mentality because I am Italian too. we think that the American culture is superior to ours, so we are ashamed of our Italianness if we come to America.

Arab people think the opposite: they think that their cultural identity is superior to the American one.

That's why lots of Muslims want the sharia law

Oddly very few Muslims are Arab and the majority of Arabs that migrate to the USA are Christian

I think you will find that most American Muslims want the same rights the Jews have that being the right for disputed contracts between Muslim be settled under sharia by Muslim arbitrators. the same as Jews are permitted to use Judaic laws in the settlement of Civil disputes between Jews