Do You Believe In God, Why? Don't You Believe In God, Why?

[Moses_UK]

I dare say the religious trappings are largely cultural, but it's perfectly possible to live a life of decency, respect and inclusion without needing a supernatural belief. Gens una sumus, as the chessplayers say, whereas religions, like nations, like your local sports team, are tribal.

As is the scientific community you love so deeply. Western Scientists such as Darwin, Sam harris and Dawkins and Hawkins all look similar and have had the same upbringing. all attended similar universities and culturally came from the same place. When will the atheists acknowledge that they have religion as well with the same cohort of people, and dogmas they so much hate.

 

[Valjean]

Egyptians kept silent on lots of things too. Defeat was one of them.

And yet we know of defeats and 'invasions', from their own writings.
Something so hugely and historically consequential would not have escaped the attention of civilizations throughout the region.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your all looking at the prism of Christianity. Lots of people have disproven Christianity and believe that all other religions are the same. Atheist such as Dawkins make statements which don't disprove Islam but don't fit the western narrative or norms. Like other Atheists that haven't read Islam literature and assume and make sweeping statements which contradict their outlook to science.

I think it is generally true that most atheists judge religion based upon the Bible and Christianity, so they employ the fallacy of hasty generalization and assume all other religions must also be false. Islam is more advanced than Christianity in many ways because it was revealed later than Christianity, but people in the Western world don't take Islam seriously because they are biased by Christianity.

But you will find that hardly any Atheists on this forum are hard atheists like Dawkins. Most of them here are agnostic atheists. They do not say that God does not exist, they say that they do not believe that God exists because there is no evidence that God exists, and they do not consider Messengers of God to be evidence of God.

 

[Valjean]

As is the scientific community you love so deeply. Western Scientists such as Darwin, Sam harris and Dawkins and Hawkins all look similar and have had the same upbringing. all attended similar universities and culturally came from the same place. When will the atheists acknowledge that they have religion as well with the same cohort of people, and dogmas they so much hate.

In what way do atheists have religion? They have no beliefs -- no rituals, no clergy, no common moral code -- nothing that you'd connect with religion.

 

[PruePhillip]

I dare say the religious trappings are largely cultural, but it's perfectly possible to live a life of decency, respect and inclusion without needing a supernatural belief. Gens una sumus, as the chessplayers say, whereas religions, like nations, like your local sports team, are tribal.

True, but.... if you take the time to really read the bible you come to understand that there's
an understanding that it's not about making a better world. This statement offends people at
times.
According to the bible God took offense at good living people who's morality was anchored
in good deeds or good living alone. The parable of the Lord's wedding is an example - the
excuses given by people who did not want to attend his son's wedding were that someone
had just bought land and needed to go see it, another that he had married a wife and needed
to attend to her needs, and so on. The bible calls this 'self righteousness' which means you
can be 'righteous' but it a virtue that comes from yourself and not God. People professing
concern for refugees is an example - a decent sentiment but it doesn't warrant them being a
'virtuous' person in the sight of God.

 

[Valjean]

True. But oddly, Exodus tells us (not clearly, but it's there) that the Hebrews kept leaving and coming
back to a place called Kadesh. It was a common place name at the time. Of the 40 years in the
'wilderness' 38 of them were spent in Kadesh.
And part of the issue with Jewish origins in Egypt is that such ideas are not popular with Egyptians.
And Jews in Egypt would have been no different than Jews in France or Germany early last century -
they lived like their hosts. Also, not much archaeology can be done when modern cities exist over old
cities.

So where is this Kadesh? In such a sere and stable environment, I'd expect the massive collection of artifacts they'd have left behind to be visible from space!

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd have to say your conclusion is unfounded. If Islam were well evidenced it would be accepted universally, like relativity or any other scientific fact.

I'd have to say your conclusion is unfounded. No religion can be proven like a scientific fact, so no matter how much evidence there is it will not be accepted universally, at least not at the present time, because things might change in the future. The reason that a "newer" religion is not accepted by the religious adherents of the older religions is drop dead obvious -- it is because those adherents are attached to what they already believe and are thus unwilling to even look at the newer religions with any serious intent to know more about them, let alone joining them.

 

[PruePhillip]

And yet we know of defeats and 'invasions', from their own writings.
Something so hugely and historically consequential would not have escaped the attention of civilizations throughout the region.

Correct, but if we are correct in dating Exodus then it happened at simply the worst moment in
human history - the so-called Bronze Age Collapse. Not only did whole civilizations vanish but
writing did too. And what meager scraps of text survived had more important things to consider
than some wandering Hebrews. In fact, with the exception of the Egyptians, most people in the
ancient world were wandering.

 

[PruePhillip]

So where is this Kadesh? In such a sere and stable environment, I'd expect the massive collection of artifacts they'd have left behind to be visible from space!

Can't say. No-one knows. There's two Kadesh places we know - one of these I understand
was the site of a famous battle between Egypt and Assyria (?)
Of interest - the Hebrews never built monuments to themselves like Egypt did - they were
the 'children of God' with no set place to lay their feet.
We do see, a century of two later at Shiloh, evidence for the 'horns of the altar' and the
manner of sacrifice that Moses is supposed to have mandated.

 

[Valjean]

No, I don't think that most atheists will have a sudden belief in God or in an afterlife when they are dying.
I have never known an atheist who believes in an afterlife although that does mean there aren't any.

How about atheist Buddhists and rebirth?

 

[Trailblazer]

Few questions to your statements

1. How can all religions be true if they believe in different concepts?

When I say they are all true, I am referring to what was originally revealed by God to a Messenger such as Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab or Baha'u'llah. I am not referring to what man did to misinterpret and distort the meanings of those scriptures over the course of time. Also, teachings and laws and the message from God that was applicable thousands of years ago is no longer applicable in this new age.

2. whats the population of Baha'is? how can a small number of people throughout history and present claim to have the truth?

How many people believe a religion has nothing to do with whether it is true or false. That is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum. When Christianity and Islam were first established they were small, just like the Baha'i Faith is now. It takes time for religions to grow large.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[Trailblazer]

How about atheist Buddhists and rebirth?

You got me on that one.
However, do they believe there is a spiritual world anyone goes to, or do they just believe we die and keep coming back to this world?

 

[Valjean]

For one thing, my religion is all-inclusive, since we believe all the revealed religions are the truth from God. The other religions make no sense to me because I could never believe in a God that has "chosen ones" as some Jews and Christians believe they are.

In picking a religion, there is no logical choice other than the Baha'i Faith because it has everything individuals and society need in this age. The older religions had what was needed in former ages, but we do not live in those ages anymore.

I do not know exactly what you mean by ontologically correct, but the way I see it, if my religion is a true religion that was revealed by God, then everything that was revealed is also true.

I'm familiar with Baha'i. I've read some of the scripture, and Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, and I used to attend firesides regularly. It's a nice, friendly, cosmopolitan religion but, like most religions, and revealed religions in particular, it lacks empirical support.
You'd probably agree.

 

[blü 2]

True, but.... if you take the time to really read the bible you come to understand that there's an understanding that it's not about making a better world. This statement offends people at times.

If it's not about making a better world then it's not about anything that matters much. As FitzGerald's Omar says (4th edn):

48.
A Moment’s Halt ─ a momentary taste
Of BEING from the Well amid the Waste ─

And Lo! ─ the phantom Caravan has reacht​

The NOTHING it set out from ─ Oh, make haste!
​

and

63.
Oh threats of Hell and Hopes of Paradise!
One thing at least is certain – This Life flies;

One thing is certain and the rest is Lies;​

The Flower that once has blown for ever dies.​

Or more succinctly from Elvis all those years ago, "It's now or never".

 

[Valjean]

You got me on that one.
However, do they believe there is a spiritual world anyone goes to, or do they just believe we die and keep coming back to this world?

I think beliefs vary a lot. Some believe in spirits and life after death in a spirit world, some have us re-incarnating in new bodies, and there's a general belief in eventual merger with the universe.
Some Buddhists will probably weigh in on this.

 

[PruePhillip]

If it's not about making a better world then it's not about anything that matters much. As FitzGerald's Omar says (4th edn):

48.
A Moment’s Halt ─ a momentary taste
Of BEING from the Well amid the Waste ─

And Lo! ─ the phantom Caravan has reacht​

The NOTHING it set out from ─ Oh, make haste!​

and

63.
Oh threats of Hell and Hopes of Paradise!
One thing at least is certain – This Life flies;

One thing is certain and the rest is Lies;​

The Flower that once has blown for ever dies.​

Or more succinctly from Elvis all those years ago, "It's now or never".

Yeah, that song - Elvis sang it after returning from Germany. Changed a lot of the older folk's
views about him. Incredible. Just replayed it now, first time in 20 years.

But the bible is about personal experience. Not the collective. Jesus told those who thought
they were the chosen people that only two were helped during the famine in Elijah's day -
one a Syrian and the other a Lebanese. His audience sought to kill him.
The understanding is that if everyone lived by the standard set forth in the Sermon on the
Mount then indeed the world would be a vastly better place. But Jesus was under no such
illusion - this was the standard of heaven. And just being 'good' by itself would not qualify
a person to enter heaven.

 

[MonkeyFire]

You fight, or you face an invincible devil, in which this world must come to this state of existence and there is still a God. Good riddance problem of evil.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm familiar with Baha'i. I've read some of the scripture, and Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, and I used to attend firesides regularly. It's a nice, friendly, cosmopolitan religion but, like most religions, and revealed religions in particular, it lacks empirical support.
You'd probably agree.

I guess you mean it lacks proof that God actually revealed messages to Baha'u'llah...
Yes, I agree that there is no empirical support of that. How could such a thing ever be proven?

 

[Trailblazer]

I think beliefs vary a lot. Some believe in spirits and life after death in a spirit world, some have us re-incarnating in new bodies, and there's a general belief in eventual merger with the universe.
Some Buddhists will probably weigh in on this.

But if beliefs contradict each other they cannot both be correct... I mean if we go to a spiritual world and that is where we stay and continue to grow for eternity then we cannot also come back to this world as per reincarnation.

 

[rational experiences]

I think it is generally true that most atheists judge religion based upon the Bible and Christianity, so they employ the fallacy of hasty generalization and assume all other religions must also be false. Islam is more advanced than Christianity in many ways because it was revealed later than Christianity, but people in the Western world don't take Islam seriously because they are biased by Christianity.

But you will find that hardly any Atheists on this forum are hard atheists like Dawkins. Most of them here are agnostic atheists. They do not say that God does not exist, they say that they do not believe that God exists because there is no evidence that God exists, and they do not consider Messengers of God to be evidence of God.

Humans however quote the claim about meaning of God.

Why the consensus quote if I say God O planet a circular held mass exists by form. My measure the circle without numbers is correct.

Claim in science God O owned no measure.

Religious idealism is an update of science actually.

Civilization elite greed was not first brotherhood origins. Coercive human conditioning.

Science was the first brotherhood how they became powerful by intent invention.