Do You Believe In God, Why? Don't You Believe In God, Why?

[Subduction Zone]

The snowflake is not separated from the creation of God.

Then you make God unneeded. What you are describing is merely nature.

 

[janesix]

ahh! The God of the Gaps. First off eclipses are not "perfect". The size of the Moon's umbra on the Earth varies quite a bit. The umbra is typically 60 to 100 miles wide but it can be as small as zero, in other words "perfect" alignment but no total eclipse due to the Moon being too far from the Earth. Since we understand how and why eclipses form does that refute God? You should say "No". In the same sense none of your arguments are evidence for God.

It's not JUST ONE THING like the eclipse. It is THOUSANDS of things. A handful of coincidences might mean nothing, but there are MANY more.

 

[thomas t]

Why couldn't it just be a natural result of our evolution?

in my opinion, there is no evolutionary advantage for those who find a countryside like this one beautiful:


https://pixabay.com/photos/switzerland-zermatt-mountains-snow-862870/

confirmation bias.

in my opinion, the evidence for a loving creating force is still strong.

 

[Skywalker]

A house and car are made by humans for human reasons. The order of nature shows no evidence of an intelligence (a complex, pre-existing consciousness, which requires its own laws of nature to function) behind them.

The order of nature is similar to the order of a car. A car requires a complex pre existing conciousness to come into existence.

 

[Skywalker]

Most scientists think that whenever there was time, there was also matter and energy.

What scientists believe that the universe is eternal? Newton believed in God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's not JUST ONE THING like the eclipse. It is THOUSANDS of things. A handful of coincidences might mean nothing, but there are MANY more.

All that you have are thousands of things that you do not understand. This is why your argument is called "The God of the Gaps". Your God keeps getting smaller as the gaps are continually explained. Not understanding a concept is not evidence for a concept.

 

[Skywalker]

The fundamental particles have properties. When they join together to make more complex atoms, those atoms have properties, including being attracted and bonding to other atoms. These properties give rise to the order you see around us.

What influences them to make more complex atoms and be attracted and bonded to other atoms?

 

[Subduction Zone]

in my opinion, there is no evolutionary advantage for those who find a countryside like this one beautiful:

View attachment 46619
https://pixabay.com/photos/switzerland-zermatt-mountains-snow-862870/

in my opinion, the evidence for a loving creating force is still strong.

And how do you know this?

And worse yet what if someone thought that was not beautiful? That should refute your God.

If cases to the opposite do not refute your God then your test is of no use. Trust me, there are people that would look at that and not find it beautiful. Some would think it was far too cold. Some would be afraid of the heights that is implies. Your test is of no merit.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What influences them to make more complex atoms and be attracted and bonded to other atoms?

The laws of chemistry and entropy.

 

[Valjean]

I can't believe people still believe Darwinian garbage.

Why not? And what "Darwinian garbage" are you talking about? Are there any specifics you have a problem with?
Do really believe organisms magically popping out of the dust fully formed Is more reasonable than the mechanisms of evolution.

Still believe?! More evidence emerges every day. There are whole libraries of it.
It's the foundation of all biology. It's commonsense, it's observable, it's predictive, people have been using selective breeding for millennia. Without evolution nothing in biology makes any sense.

And Darwin, by the way, knew practically nothing. Modern biology has advanced way beyond anything he ever dreamed of.

 

[Skywalker]

Exactly. That is why cars require intelligence to produce them, but snow does not.

That doesn't explain what process led to the creation of water.

 

[Skywalker]

The laws of chemistry and entropy.

Even if those are self existing they would have to come from an eternal universe which is a questionable theory.

 

[Skywalker]

That does not appear to be the case. It looks as if you merely believe that a creator is needed. Many people with mere belief think that they "know". The problem is that knowledge is demonstrable. So how do you "see that a creator is needed"?

The precision that exists within the laws of nature.

 

[Skywalker]

There we go. And the origin of automobiles?

The order of water existing and the order of automobiles requires just as much precision.

 

[Polymath257]

That doesn't explain what process led to the creation of water.

Hydrogen was formed in the very early universe: it is essentially a proton and an electron. Oxygen formed in the cores of early stars via fusion.

Water is formed by hydrogen and oxygen binding together. It is very common in the universe.

 

[Valjean]

Where does morality and an orderly creation come from, if not an intelligent designer? Morality comes from God, the lawgiver.

No, morality evolved as a beneficial feature of a social lifestyle, where co-operation was needed rather than competition.

As slow, weak, defenseless plains apes, we had to band together and co-operate, or be eaten. Any anarchists or individualists or disruptive people were cast out -- and eaten by leopards, their immoral genes never to grace the human genome.

 

[Polymath257]

The order of water existing and the order of automobiles requires just as much precision.

No, not really. From very basic laws, the structure of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms follows and the nature of water follows from the way those atoms bond together.

 

[Valjean]

Maybe they are God made.

Maybe, but where is the evidence of this God? Why would we even consider the possibility if it all could have happened in the way we see things happening everyday, by the laws of chemistry and physics. Doesn't that seem more likely than an undetectable magician?

 

[Polymath257]

What influences them to make more complex atoms and be attracted and bonded to other atoms?

Primarily the rules of electromagnetism and quantum mechanics. Nuclei are positively charged, electrons are negatively charged and have very small mass. Those directly lead to the structure of atoms and their inclination to bond with other atoms.

The simplest atoms were formed early in the universe, originally from the decay of neutrons into protons and electrons (hydrogen), and then via fusion to form helium and lithium. The heavier elements formed in the cores of stars or in supernova.

This ALL follows from the basic properties of electromagnetism and the rules of quantum mechanics.

 

[Skywalker]

And that is a failed argument. One cannot argue for a just God with that. Worse yet the so called crimes are rather imaginary. If God is all powerful how does any man's "sin" harm him? According to the Adam and Eve myth "sin" is due to God's own negligence.

The strength of many religions exist in convincing its followers that it has something that they do not deserve but they need. The self degradation of most religions is rather evil.

Lawyers would never take the place of a criminal because God's ways aren't our ways. God is just for punishing himself and not us because the penalty of the crime is still paid. Our sins hurt ourselves and God because God is not the author of confusion and all sin is confusion.

Eastern Christians don't believe in original sin.