Do you go to hell if you commit suicide?

[McBell]

God is incapable of being a prude. By definition. His goodness and purity cannot be excessive when the highest goodness and purity is His attribute.

Again, I disagree.
As long as you as so overly concerned with the word 'prude' you will likely not be able to comprehend anything deeper than what you have decided to cling to.

You seem to be forgetting His other attributes such as forgiveness and grace.

Not at all.
Just because you make unsubstantiated claims about God does not mean that everyone else has to play along with them.


And do not think for a moment that I did not notice your blatant avoidance of the real issue here, the one specifically asked for by YOU.
Instead you once again harp on the term "prude."
at least you are consistent.

 

[HoldemDB9]

We don't have to "achieve" salvation, though. Salvation is ours. We simply have to believe that Christ is giving us this gift.

And those who do believe it have not done anything special, better or more reward worthy than those who don't - its just that they happened to be right.

I find the belief at least in a higher power to be completely logical. Surely, something or someone put all that we see in motion. But yes, much of what I believe, I believe in faith. I accept much without tangible evidence.
I chose to have faith in the religion that's right for me.

I would agree that generally, a belief in God is logical. Personally I don't quite know whether or not I believe in God.

Cant you see though that different world-views are right for different people? You said you have faith in Christianity because its right for you. Well a Muslims follows Islam because its right for them. Surely they cannot be punished for going with what to them, was right?

I believe that we are to live our lives to the best of our ability, following our own hearts and convictions. And if we each live a life in love and compassion, I believe God sees this, regardless of our relgious affiliation. Only God knows our true character. I don't consider myself to be any better or "faithful" than someone of another faith.

I completely agree with all of this.

Where I disagree with you, is that I believe we do control, to an extent what's "true" to us, individually. You already know my thoughts on choice, though, so I won't post them again.

I don't see the disagreement. I did not say that we don't control what we believe is true. I said that we don't control what is true.

Do you believe that God will reward based on how hard and honestly we attempted to find truth?

 

[McBell]

Do you believe that God will reward based on how hard and honestly we attempted to find truth?

First off I want to make it clear that I am not speaking for anyone other than myself...


Seems to me that if one is required to have faith, that finding the truth would negate said faith.
Unless of course said truth is based on faith.

Rather interesting circle, don't you think?

 

[dawny0826]

And those who do believe it have not done anything special, better or more reward worthy than those who don't - its just that they happened to be right.

I think it's more of those who believed, chose to live their lives, reflecting this belief. Does that make sense?

I would agree that generally, a belief in God is logical. Personally I don't quite know whether or not I believe in God.

That's okay.

Cant you see though that different world-views are right for different people? You said you have faith in Christianity because its right for you. Well a Muslims follows Islam because its right for them. Surely they cannot be punished for going with what to them, was right?

Of course I can. I don't focus so much on punishment. I think too often Christians bring to the forefront the "hell and damnation" prospect and that's really not what it's about. As I've stated, I believe that only God knows the hearts of people. Naturally, as a Christian, I believe that salvation is found in Christ. But I don't know if God would punish someone for living in love and following the path that brought them peace. In truth, I ask the same question that you do.

Do you believe that God will reward based on how hard and honestly we attempted to find truth?

I believe that God sees our attempts to find Him. If by reward you mean, "embrace" you, I think it's certainly possible. I identify myself as a Christian but I'm not much different than you are, really. I ask the same questions that you do. I'm learning as I go. I really don't have the all the answers and I've found that I'm most at peace with my own religous choices when I simply do my best to live in love and not worry so much about all the rest.

 

[HoldemDB9]

I think it's more of those who believed, chose to live their lives, reflecting this belief. Does that make sense?

Yes this makes perfect sense. But plenty of Christians who I speak to say that God will reward people simply because they have a belief in Christianity. Not because believing in Christianity will cause them to be better people or because they live by those beliefs or anything like that. Just as long as their beliefs are right, they will be rewarded.

For example. I'm not quite sure what they believe, but imagine that the Westboro Baptists were actually right. Do you think that God would favour their beliefs over everyone else's, for just one reason - that their beliefs were actually true?

Of course I can. I don't focus so much on punishment. I think too often Christians bring to the forefront the "hell and damnation" prospect and that's really not what it's about. As I've stated, I believe that only God knows the hearts of people. Naturally, as a Christian, I believe that salvation is found in Christ. But I don't know if God would punish someone for living in love and following the path that brought them peace. In truth, I ask the same question that you do.


I believe that God sees our attempts to find Him. If by reward you mean, "embrace" you, I think it's certainly possible. I identify myself as a Christian but I'm not much different than you are, really. I ask the same questions that you do. I'm learning as I go. I really don't have the all the answers and I've found that I'm most at peace with my own religous choices when I simply do my best to live in love and not worry so much about all the rest.

Makes perfect sense to me. I think too many Christians pray, go to church, believe in the Bible, take notice of the Bible and spread Christianity just because they have faith its true. This is not going to really convert non-believers. They need to start giving better reasons as to why we should do those things, and I know that those better reasons exist. For example, they should say to people "become a Christian because you will be a better, happier person" not "become a Christian because we think its true". I hope you understand me here, its hard to explain.

I really do think that God will laugh at people who think they're going to heaven just because their beliefs we true. If someone who tried really hard to find truth but came to a wrong conclusion gets thrown into Hell, over someone who didn't try very hard but came to a right conclusion, then you can throw me into Hell with all the other decent people.

 

[coolestcataround1]

Yes they go to hell.Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: We have a time reserved to die.Ro 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. We do have a purpose on this earth and that is to bring God glory. We do not live to do what we want to do nor do we decide when we want to leave. Samson did Not do that act to take his own life he did it to do God's will. But I do agree that those with mental illness (chemical inbalances) are spared because they are not capabale of thinking logically. But someone that is depressed does not get a pass.

 

[Reverend Rick]

You again are using Pascals Wager. I've been though this. I cannot accept a gift that I do not know is there. There are multiple religions and all of those are also saying that they are offering a free gift. Which one should I choose Rick? The one that happens to be right? How do I know which one is right? Oh, I don't - I just have got to have faith that I'm right. Please explain to me how being right about religious beleifs is something other than utter luck, or cant you?

Are you going to tell me if you cannot know what is inside a wrapped box, you cannot accept it? If the contents of the box are known and you don't want or need the present you will refuse it?

Also, I will imagine just for a second that Christianity is the only religion in existence (like you seem to think). I would still probably not become a Christian, because to become a Christian, I really would have to be dishonest to myself - would God want that?

Here you go again putting word in my mouth. Where did I say Christianity is the only religion?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Yes Dawny, chance and luck are factors here. Like I said, I honestly have never had a Christian explain to me how achieving salvation is anything but chance. We cannot find which religion is true through reasoning and logic, surley you agree with this? What we have to do is choose to have faith in the religion which happens to be true, right?

Wrong!

So if a Muslim has an equal amount of faith in Islam as a Christian does in Jesus, do you think it would be fair for God to reward the Muslim because their faith happened to be true? If Islam is true, a Muslim has not done anything better than a Christian has done, its just that their beliefs were true. And we do not control what is and is not true.

What if God sent both the Muslim and the Christian to heaven? Have you ever thought of that? You are so tore up with Pascals wager that you have to be exactly right or you will not take a leap of faith. You do not have faith in anything! You are being dishonest pretending that you would choose God if you just had some kind of proof. Faith is the requirement and you are too stubborn to believe in anything you cannot prove. You breath air and use electricity, yet you cannot see either.

Why do you believe that a God (that you don't believe in) would only send one religion to heaven?

You believe in an action that a God would make, but don't believe in the God right?

 

[HoldemDB9]

Are you going to tell me if you cannot know what is inside a wrapped box, you cannot accept it? If the contents of the box are known and you don't want or need the present you will refuse it? Here you go again putting word in my mouth. Where did I say Christianity is the only religion?

Sigh. I could accept the gift because I know that it is there. But I cant accept a gift that I do not know is there. I can have faith that it is there, but I cannot accept until I know it is there.

I said you thought Christianity was the only religion because you use Pascals Wager. Pascals Wager can only be used if there was only one religion in the world and you keep using it.

Wrong!

What if God sent both the Muslim and the Christian to heaven? Have you ever thought of that? You are so tore up with Pascals wager that you have to be exactly right or you will not take a leap of faith. You do not have faith in anything! You are being dishonest pretending that you would choose God if you just had some kind of proof. Faith is the requirement and you are too stubborn to believe in anything you cannot prove. You breath air and use electricity, yet you cannot see either.

If you believe that God will send Muslims to heaven then I don't think I will have any problem with you beleifs, but you have not told me that you believe this until now. So to clarify, do you believe that Christians will in no way be favoured by God over Muslims?

Also, you keep mentioning that I use Pascals Wager. I have never used it in my life and you have used it over and over again in this thread. And I did not say that I did not believe in God, I'm not an Atheist.

Why do you believe that a God (that you don't believe in) would only send one religion to heaven?

I would never ever believe this, its absolutely insane. You know what the problem is though Rick? Almost every Christian I've spoke to believe exactly this, so you should ask them.

You believe in an action that a God would make, but don't believe in the God right?

Well like I said I don't necessarily have a disbelief in God. But still I don't see why someone could believe God would do certain things and at the same time, not believe in him. For example, from what I've seen the vast majority of Atheist have a much more sensible explanation of God than the vast majority of Christians.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Again, I disagree...And do not think for a moment that I did not notice your blatant avoidance of the real issue here, the one specifically asked for by YOU.
Instead you once again harp on the term "prude."
at least you are consistent.

Your issue is only real when you avoid using the correct definition of a word in an attempt to inpugn the God of the Bible. That is the basis of your misinterpretation.

And I answered your misguided claim, you just failed to accept it.

 

[McBell]

Your issue is only real when you avoid using the correct definition of a word in an attempt to inpugn the God of the Bible. That is the basis of your misinterpretation.

And I answered your misguided claim, you just failed to accept it.

I am not using an incorrect definition of the word "Prude."
The fact that you believe your God a much bigger prude than I do is the problem here.

Of course you cannot see it because you claim the word cannot apply to your god.
That is YOUR hang up, not mine.

And no you did not address the issue.
You are to hung up on the word 'prude.'

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I am not using an incorrect definition of the word "Prude."
The fact that you believe your God a much bigger prude than I do is the problem here.

Of course you cannot see it because you claim the word cannot apply to your god.
That is YOUR hang up, not mine.

And no you did not address the issue.
You are to hung up on the word 'prude.'

Nonsense.

 

[McBell]

Nonsense.

Of course it is.
But you do not see me holding it against you.

 

[Sacred Silence]

Yes, unless you were mentally ill when you did it.

I have to strike a bit of an argument with you on this. I highly doubt that a person that commits suicide is in their correct state of mind at the time of their death. So ... in my opinion that means that people that commit suicide don't go to hell.

 

[crystalonyx]

Does anyone truly believe in hell as a place of eternal punishment?

 

[HoldemDB9]

Does anyone truly believe in hell as a place of eternal punishment?

Id say something like 95% of Christians I've ever come across believe this.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Of course it is.
But you do not see me holding it against you.

Please don't hold your nonsense against me...it's...it's...unseemly.

 

[rstrats]

Sandy Whitelinger,

re: "Actually, the main problem with Pascal's wager is that it suffers from the fallacy of bifurcation."

Actually the main problem with the wager is that first and foremost it is based on the notion that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist, and of course that is impossible. Even if there were only two specific options available, the wager still couldn’t be implemented.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Sandy Whitelinger,

re: "Actually, the main problem with Pascal's wager is that it suffers from the fallacy of bifurcation."

Actually the main problem with the wager is that first and foremost it is based on the notion that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist, and of course that is impossible. Even if there were only two specific options available, the wager still couldn’t be implemented.

Do you mean to say, "that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe someone or something into existance, and of course that is impossible."

 

[rstrats]

Sandy Whitelinger,

re: "Do you mean to say, ‘that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe someone or something into existance, and of course that is impossible.’"

No, although believing someone or something into existence is also naturally impossible. What I wrote is what I intended.