Do You Know Why You Don't Believe?

[Super Universe]

Super Universe,

re: "...it is absolutely possible to consciously choose things."

Perhaps you can help me then. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I believe that ‘x’ does not exist or is not true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron." So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

You never chose to believe in air? How about water? How about clothing and electricity? If not, how were these things forced into your mind?

 

[doppelganger]

You never chose to believe in air? How about water? How about clothing and electricity? If not, how were these things forced into your mind?

A mind must be romanced to accept the intrusion of new ideas. Such romancing is the highest of art forms. Aside from such romance, there can be no "forcing" of ideas into a mind. "No" means no, S_U. :yes:

 

[Super Universe]

This hardly seems like a good model for debate since the list of pieces of evidence that would convert me to theism is very long. An example would be rabbits in the Precambrian. If you would like more I can provide them but they would be along similar lines as the example and I'd like to know where you are going with this first.

God's existence means that unintelligent matter/energy created God. Consequently there are 3 possibilities:
1) God is more complex than the universe
2) God is as complex as the universe
3) God is less complex than the universe

In the first case, the God theory is less probable than the universe being created directly from unintelligent matter/energy and so can be discounted as improbable.

In the second and third cases, the God theory is self contradictory since it suggests that complexity from simplicity necessitates God whilst failing to justify why God is necessary in the creation of God.

Of course an alternative to all of this is that God is not created. In which case we can simply argue that the universe itself not being created is an equally probable scenario.

In all these cases, at no point is God's existence inferred from the premises.


It is irrelevant whether he is angry. My point does not rest on that so simply discount the attribute.

The point is that if it is egotistical to require evidence of God's existence then believing in a particular version of God is egotistical in virtue of not believing in every other version of God. Which God should we choose to believe in? You can't use evidence to decide without being egotistical, remember.

Your first case: Huh? You say that it is more likely that unintelligent matter/energy created everything rather than an intentional design?

So, in your mind, energy creates itself, then creates a stable form for itself (atoms) perfectly, then creates the physical laws that control it, then creates time and eventually life? Oh, and this unintelligent thing that caused all this to happen also happens to put it in a precise order.

My point is this, it's not egotistical to require evidence of God's existence, it's ego that is preventing you from seeing the evidence that is before you which is - the universe, the earth, and life...

Which God should you choose to believe in? I see, you need to have an entire working model of the one true God in order to believe in Him. I was like this too.

I would suggest simply believing that God exists and that He created the universe and then work on all the other details that you need over time.

Please feel free to ask me any question at all regarding God and you can build your own view of Him. Don't look in the bible. There is truth in there but it is cluttered with so many lies and misunderstandings, it's really not a book about God at all, it's a book about the history of priests.

 

[Super Universe]

That would be my self-awareness and use of language, not yours. In other words, if you decide "God" doesn't exist. Then "God" doesn't exist. Period. I can't make your universe for you. Only you can do that.

Yes, you are saying that we all see what we want to see.

But why does one choose to believe and another chooses not to believe?

 

[doppelganger]

Yes, you are saying that we all see what we want to see.

But why does one choose to believe and another chooses not to believe?

Who says anyone chooses? What does it mean to "choose to believe"? You can't see what I have in my pocket. Do you believe it is a starving hamster? You do not believe in what you do not perceive in your reality. You believe in what you do perceive in your reality.

If I don't perceive "God" as a thing in my reality, I can't choose to believe in "God" any more than you can choose to believe there's a starving hamster in my pocket. That's why I keep trying to get an answer from you about what it is I'm supposed to believe or not believe in. I don't have any things in my perceived reality that I know as "God."

If you ask me who "created" my reality I can only answer what I know. My own thoughts created the reality I experience. My thoughts identified the significant characteristics of the things I experienced and grouped those characteristics together to make forms in my memory. Each form was assigned a common noun to make it easier to call back up and communicate. The relationships between the different things is an ongoing process as I integrate new sensory inputs with my memory and forms, thereby creating new things in my universe every day as I impose more order through my thoughts on the universe I experience.

 

[doppelganger]

Yes, you are saying that we all see what we want to see.

Not quite. I am saying we all see what we see. Though desire plays a role. And it's with desire that artists in romancing the mind work.

 

[Super Universe]

Who says anyone chooses? What does it mean to "choose to believe"? You can't see what I have in my pocket. Do you believe it is a starving hamster? You do not believe in what you do not perceive in your reality. You believe in what you do perceive in your reality.

If I don't perceive "God" as a thing in my reality, I can't choose to believe in "God" any more than you can choose to believe there's a starving hamster in my pocket. That's why I keep trying to get an answer from you about what it is I'm supposed to believe or not believe in. I don't have any things in my perceived reality that I know as "God."

If you ask me who "created" my reality I can only answer what I know. My own thoughts created the reality I experience. My thoughts identified the significant characteristics of the things I experienced and grouped those characteristics together to make forms in my memory. Each form was assigned a common noun to make it easier to call back up and communicate. The relationships between the different things is an ongoing process as I integrate new sensory inputs with my memory and forms, thereby creating new things in my universe every day as I impose more order through my thoughts on the universe I experience.

I may not assume without any other evidence that there is a starving hamster in your pocket, but if the hamster cage is empty and I know you haven't fed it in a very long time I might.

Your thoughts created your reality? They may have created your perception of it but they did not create anything real. The universe existed long before your thought process began.

You think you create by seeing and remembering but the thing already existed before you came along.

 

[Fluffy]

Your first case: Huh? You say that it is more likely that unintelligent matter/energy created everything rather than an intentional design?

So, in your mind, energy creates itself, then creates a stable form for itself (atoms) perfectly, then creates the physical laws that control it, then creates time and eventually life? Oh, and this unintelligent thing that caused all this to happen also happens to put it in a precise order.

I'm saying that the attribute of the universe which is said to be necessitating intelligent creation is complexity and so if this attribute is found in greater abundance in that creator then the creator itself is an improbable theory. In fact, this is a more improbable theory than the theory stating that complexity does not require an more intelligent creator and so the universe is not created.

Since this case (the first case) is clearly not probable, it must therefore be one of the other cases or the alternative I put forward. In each scenario I have shown why I think God is less probable than not God.

My point is this, it's not egotistical to require evidence of God's existence, it's ego that is preventing you from seeing the evidence that is before you which is - the universe, the earth, and life...

Then you need to justify your claim that ego is indeed preventing me from seeing the evidence around me. Otherwise we are just contradicting each other and not debating. I can't analyse your claim unless you supply your reasoning.

I would suggest simply believing that God exists and that He created the universe and then work on all the other details that you need over time.

If I asked you to stop believing in God would you be able to do it? If you are able to stop believing in God then you should be able to describe to me in greater detail how I can go about beginning to believe in God. If you cannot stop believing in God then you should not expect me to be able to start believing in him.

Please feel free to ask me any question at all regarding God and you can build your own view of Him. Don't look in the bible. There is truth in there but it is cluttered with so many lies and misunderstandings, it's really not a book about God at all, it's a book about the history of priests.

My question would be, how do I go about finding evidence for God if I am too egotistical to see it? Additionally, if I employ a method you suggest and come back empty handed, is there any way I could demonstrate that my lack of finding is not due to employing the method incorrectly but due to their not being any evidence to find?

If your answer to the first question is "no" then I will never overcome my atheism regardless of whether God exists and so it is irrelevant to me. If your answer to the second question is "no" then you will never know whether your theism should be overcome.

 

[rstrats]

Super Universe,

re: "You never chose to believe in air? How about water? How about clothing and electricity?"

As I stated, I have never consciously CHOSEN any of the beliefs that I have.


re: "If not, how were these things forced into your mind?"

Assuming that they were not placed there by some supreme being, I would guess that they were most likely engendered by a process occurring in my subconscious mind caused by exposure to outside stimuli such as observation, literature, lectures, media, conversation, etc.

BTW, you have a request directed to you in post #196.

 

[doppelganger]

Your thoughts created your reality? They may have created your perception of it but they did not create anything real.

Perception is reality. There's nothing else that could be, frankly.

 

[Papersock]

Yep, that counts. Missed it in all the hoopla.

Your current knowledge leads you to believe that it is highly unlikely that any god exists?

Then you must believe that it is more likely that no intelligence designed an almost perfect system, atoms in perfect balance, necessary physical laws in place, organization of planetary systems, and an order to it all?

And this unintelligent thing also created time for some reason. And life.

Yeah, pretty much.
I think natural processes can create order on their own.
And time has to exist as long as there is energy or motion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Then you must believe that it is more likely that no intelligence designed an almost perfect system, atoms in perfect balance, necessary physical laws in place, organization of planetary systems, and an order to it all?

And this unintelligent thing also created time for some reason. And life.

"I, a puddle, must be the epitome of existence: the force of gravity is just right to hold me to the Earth, and in all the time I have existed (a full week!), the sun has never been hot enough to evaporate me completely, and enough water has trickled down from uphill to keep me filled. In fact, look at the hole that I rest in: it's exactly a perfect fit to my shape and size! You couldn't fit a hair between my watery edge and the rocky surface I rest in! The world - no, the entire universe - must have been made just for me!"

The reason we fit the universe so well isn't because the universe was designed for us, but because we grew to fit the universe. If things were different, we'd be different.

 

[Super Universe]

We fit the universe well?

We fit in a fraction of a percent of it well, the rest is deadly.

 

[Super Universe]

I'm saying that the attribute of the universe which is said to be necessitating intelligent creation is complexity and so if this attribute is found in greater abundance in that creator then the creator itself is an improbable theory. In fact, this is a more improbable theory than the theory stating that complexity does not require an more intelligent creator and so the universe is not created.

Since this case (the first case) is clearly not probable, it must therefore be one of the other cases or the alternative I put forward. In each scenario I have shown why I think God is less probable than not God.


Then you need to justify your claim that ego is indeed preventing me from seeing the evidence around me. Otherwise we are just contradicting each other and not debating. I can't analyse your claim unless you supply your reasoning.


If I asked you to stop believing in God would you be able to do it? If you are able to stop believing in God then you should be able to describe to me in greater detail how I can go about beginning to believe in God. If you cannot stop believing in God then you should not expect me to be able to start believing in him.

My question would be, how do I go about finding evidence for God if I am too egotistical to see it? Additionally, if I employ a method you suggest and come back empty handed, is there any way I could demonstrate that my lack of finding is not due to employing the method incorrectly but due to their not being any evidence to find?

If your answer to the first question is "no" then I will never overcome my atheism regardless of whether God exists and so it is irrelevant to me. If your answer to the second question is "no" then you will never know whether your theism should be overcome.

Hmm, you say it's improbable that the Creator is more complex than His creation?

Using the term probability isn't necessarily accurate since we have nothing to compare the universe to, other than a void, I guess. But I do like the term, I've even used it myself because it directs the viewer to make a choice between two things and both seem to be improbable.

Still I don't see the logic in your theory. To me, a complex universe does necessitate intelligence. Remember, we're not talking about minimal complexity, we're talking about extreme complexity. Lava never makes a Samurai Sword.

How is ego preventing you from seeing the evidence of God all around you? Perhaps you think, "If there really was a God, He would take care of people and make them all happy". You think He should fix this and change that so all people could live happily ever after on the earth. Except a place like that already exists, it's called heaven, and the earth is not it.

Me stop believing in God? Not possible. Nope. No way, no how.

You do not want to believe in God, fine, then don't believe in God.

How do you overcome ego? Some early morning tell yourself to make a mental note of everything you come across that is all about you. Most people think everything is about them when, really, nothing at all is.

 

[Super Universe]

Super Universe,

re: "You never chose to believe in air? How about water? How about clothing and electricity?"

As I stated, I have never consciously CHOSEN any of the beliefs that I have.


re: "If not, how were these things forced into your mind?"

Assuming that they were not placed there by some supreme being, I would guess that they were most likely engendered by a process occurring in my subconscious mind caused by exposure to outside stimuli such as observation, literature, lectures, media, conversation, etc.

BTW, you have a request directed to you in post #196.

You never consciously chose to believe any of the beliefs you had?

So, that does not change a thing. Once you become an adult you are responsible for what you believe, whatever it is. Your parents, preacher, or any book is not responsible. You are whether you accept a role in it or not.

I can ignore the pleas from a child crying for help next door. I can lie and say that I am not responsible but that does not change the truth. I am absolutely responsible because I am not an ant, I am not an unknowing dog or squirrel.

 

[Super Universe]

Perception is reality. There's nothing else that could be, frankly.

Lets say it's foggy one afternoon and I'm driving on a winding road and I think the road continues ahead but it doesn't, it turns to the left.

What happens when I think there are no more steps but there are?

Reality changes your perception real quick.

 

[UnTheist]

We fit the universe* well?

We fit in a fraction of a percent of it well, the rest is deadly.

*Earth

 

[Katzpur]

I'm not sure God exists because he's never been over to visit. Simple as that. Why would I think otherwise?

I guess you're not sure I exist either, huh, chimpy? Or are you making the assumption I do because the necklaces didn't come back to you marked "no such person; no such address"?

 

[rstrats]

Super Universe,

re: "You never consciously chose to believe any of the beliefs you had?"

For the third time, no.


re: " Once you become an adult you are responsible for what you believe..."

I haven’t said otherwise. And I don’t see what that has to do with my request to you in my post #195.

 

[Super Universe]

You want me to prove Leprechauns to you?

You are wasting your time. I don't have strings that you can pull.