Do You Know Why You Don't Believe?

[rstrats]

Super Universe,

re: "What is the reason you don't believe in God?"

A person can only venture a guess as to why they don’t have a belief in a supreme being because it is not possible to consciously choose to believe or not believe things.

 

[Super Universe]

You aren't human?

And human thoughts and language created both of them.

It still sounds like you"re talking about your own ego.

I didn't say I wasn't human. Still applies that humans get caught up in the time thing.

Human thoughts and language created the law and God? I guess they created matter as well then. And the many other things that we don't understand. Funny how human thought can create something that it doesn't even understand. (sarcasm)

It sounds like I'm talking about my own ego? No, talking FROM my ego maybe, not about it, but once again, I have no problem with admitting I have an ego. But, ego or not, I am in the same situation as you are. Doesn't matter that I believe and you don't, we're both at the same level and you might just beat me to the finish line.

 

[Super Universe]

Super Universe,

re: "What is the reason you don't believe in God?"

A person can only venture a guess as to why they don’t have a belief in a supreme being because it is not possible to consciously choose to believe or not believe things.

I disagree. Why don't you know what makes you tick? Analyze yourself, determine why you are angry (when you are angry) and why you are happy (when you are happy). And follow that up by watching emotions as they play on you, which ones are you least able to control?

Study yourself.

And, it is absolutely possible to consciously choose things. We do it a thousand times a day.

 

[Fluffy]

I disbelieve God's existence because I do not see any evidence for his existence.

I believe God does not exist because the attributes that afford him his status as God make the likelihood of his existence less than the likelihood of his non-existence.

Your ego has absolutely nothing to do with believing in God? Hmm, then why does God HAVE to visit you in order for you to believe? Why are YOU so important that almighty God has to come over?

That is fantastic. I don't think Russell anticipated this gem with his celestial teapot so I'll extend it with another analogy:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is especially angry with the swathes of non-believers who are too egotistical to believe in it without first expecting it to provide evidence of its existence.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I believe God does not exist because the attributes that afford him his status as God make the likelihood of his existence less than the likelihood of his non-existence.

However, that is compelling only to the extent that existence does not necessitate a deity possessing such attributes.

 

[doppelganger]

I didn't say I wasn't human. Still applies that humans get caught up in the time thing.

Human thoughts and language created the law and God? I guess they created matter as well then.

Yes.

And the many other things that we don't understand. Funny how human thought can create something that it doesn't even understand. (sarcasm)

Silly rabbit. The understanding is also in the thought (as is the not understanding).

It sounds like I'm talking about my own ego? No, talking FROM my ego maybe, not about it, but once again, I have no problem with admitting I have an ego. But, ego or not, I am in the same situation as you are. Doesn't matter that I believe and you don't, we're both at the same level and you might just beat me to the finish line.

Follow the conversation though. Read the part that goes along with the conclusion. Everything you describe as a "Creator" can be accomplished by your own self awareness and use of language. Everything.

Contemplate it on the tree of woe.

 

[Fluffy]

However, that is compelling only to the extent that existence does not necessitate a deity possessing such attributes.

Do you mean as in an ontological argument?

 

[Papersock]

I'm stuck in this place just as you are.

You don't have to agree with anything and I certainly never said I didn't have an ego.

But I'm the only one admitting to it, unlike every athiest in here.

The OP did not ask ask anyone if they have an ego or not. The OP aked if we thought our ego is the reason we don't believe in god.

 

[Super Universe]

I disbelieve God's existence because I do not see any evidence for his existence.

I believe God does not exist because the attributes that afford him his status as God make the likelihood of his existence less than the likelihood of his non-existence.


That is fantastic. I don't think Russell anticipated this gem with his celestial teapot so I'll extend it with another analogy:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is especially angry with the swathes of non-believers who are too egotistical to believe in it without first expecting it to provide evidence of its existence.

You do not see any evidence for God's existence? What would satisfy you then?

God's non-existence means that unintelligent matter/energy created quite a complex system that is precise to an incredible degree. .00001 deviation in the atom and it all comes apart.

And this unintelligent thing that you believe everything came from ensured that every other creation followed in an exact order. What if the first thing to form was a congregation of matter otherwise known as a black hole? Then you'd have a bunch of nothing, no universe.

Either way, God or not, there is intelligence in the design.

FSM angry? If the FSM created the universe and gave me free will, why would it then be angry that I exercised my free will?

You're stuck on the religious view of God, they got it wrong.

 

[Super Universe]

Yes.

[/size]

Silly rabbit. The understanding is also in the thought (as is the not understanding).



[/size]

Follow the conversation though. Read the part that goes along with the conclusion. Everything you describe as a "Creator" can be accomplished by your own self awareness and use of language. Everything.

Contemplate it on the tree of woe.

Everything can be accomplished by my own self awareness and the use of language? Everything huh?

Okay, use language to convince me that God does not exist then.

Good luck with that one...

 

[Super Universe]

The OP did not ask ask anyone if they have an ego or not. The OP aked if we thought our ego is the reason we don't believe in god.

Yes, thank you for pointing that out but the argument has moved on somewhat since then.

Oh, since you are pointing out the OP, you didn't answer the OP either...

 

[Papersock]

Oh, since you are pointing out the OP, you didn't answer the OP either...

I didn't? Does this not count?

 

[Tiberius]

What is the reason you don't believe in God? Or the reason you're not absolutely positively sure God exists?

I'd guess the number one reason is because people see bad things happening all around them and can't understand why God would allow it to happen.

I don't believe because of inconsistancies in Biblical accounts and a lack of supporting evidence.

Now the key question, where would you rate your own ego as a reason and do you realize it's the main reason?

[/QUOTE]

I don't see what my ego has to do with it.

And what evidence do you have that my ego is the main reason I don't believe in God? Do you know me at all? What qualifies you to make such a judgement?

 

[w00t]

And what evidence do you have that my ego is the main reason I don't believe in God? Do you know me at all? What qualifies you to make such a judgement?[/[/B]quote]

It amuses me when SU talks of ego, he seems to have enough ego for all the posters on this forum!

 

[rstrats]

Super Universe,

re: "...it is absolutely possible to consciously choose things."

Perhaps you can help me then. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I believe that ‘x’ does not exist or is not true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron." So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

 

[Fluffy]

You do not see any evidence for God's existence? What would satisfy you then?

This hardly seems like a good model for debate since the list of pieces of evidence that would convert me to theism is very long. An example would be rabbits in the Precambrian. If you would like more I can provide them but they would be along similar lines as the example and I'd like to know where you are going with this first.

God's non-existence means that unintelligent matter/energy created quite a complex system that is precise to an incredible degree. .00001 deviation in the atom and it all comes apart.

God's existence means that unintelligent matter/energy created God. Consequently there are 3 possibilities:
1) God is more complex than the universe
2) God is as complex as the universe
3) God is less complex than the universe

In the first case, the God theory is less probable than the universe being created directly from unintelligent matter/energy and so can be discounted as improbable.

In the second and third cases, the God theory is self contradictory since it suggests that complexity from simplicity necessitates God whilst failing to justify why God is necessary in the creation of God.

Of course an alternative to all of this is that God is not created. In which case we can simply argue that the universe itself not being created is an equally probable scenario.

In all these cases, at no point is God's existence inferred from the premises.

FSM angry? If the FSM created the universe and gave me free will, why would it then be angry that I exercised my free will?

It is irrelevant whether he is angry. My point does not rest on that so simply discount the attribute.

The point is that if it is egotistical to require evidence of God's existence then believing in a particular version of God is egotistical in virtue of not believing in every other version of God. Which God should we choose to believe in? You can't use evidence to decide without being egotistical, remember.

 

[doppelganger]

Everything can be accomplished by my own self awareness and the use of language? Everything huh?

Okay, use language to convince me that God does not exist then.

That would be my self-awareness and use of language, not yours. In other words, if you decide "God" doesn't exist. Then "God" doesn't exist. Period. I can't make your universe for you. Only you can do that.

 

[Super Universe]

I didn't? Does this not count?

Yep, that counts. Missed it in all the hoopla.

Your current knowledge leads you to believe that it is highly unlikely that any god exists?

Then you must believe that it is more likely that no intelligence designed an almost perfect system, atoms in perfect balance, necessary physical laws in place, organization of planetary systems, and an order to it all?

And this unintelligent thing also created time for some reason. And life.

 

[Super Universe]

I don't believe because of inconsistancies in Biblical accounts and a lack of supporting evidence.

The bible was written by ignorant tribal holy men who didn't know what caused the ground to shake, lightning bolts, the wind. They thought meteors were fireballs from heaven, so when these things happened the people looked to their holy men and asked "Why is God angry with us?"

And the holy man said "I will meditate on this" and walked away. Well, the holy man didn't know what caused the storm but he had to come up with an answer or he wasn't going to be the holy man for much longer.

So, he would come back and say "We must make a sacrifice" and later on the priests would choose those most people were already against "It is the homosexuals God is against". And this was all passed down and written in their books.

God did none of it.

You don't see what your ego has to do with it? Did you know any of the above? Why didn't you? Maybe because you are not looking to find a way to believe. You don't want to believe. You have more freedom by not believing, you think finding God would mean church every Sunday and giving money and time and getting preached to.

 

[doppelganger]

I can't make your universe for you. Only you can do that.

BTW, there's a valuable lesson in that, which would have saved you much anguish in this thread trying to refashion other's realities by force of your own will. Of course, I can't make you learn that lesson either. I don't have that much ego.