• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do You Know Why You Don't Believe?

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Here are all the examples I've given as evidence of intelligence:

The universe
The Earth
atom
gravity
strong and weak nuclear forces
relative physics
life

and here is all the evidence the athiests have provided:
"Um, no it's not..."

Exactly.
What you need is not mere assertion, but an actual argument that any of these things are the actual result of actual intelligence. Also some kind of explanation of the relationship between the putative intelligence and the particular phenomenon. It might help if you could explain how there could be an intelligence apart from a brain, something which has never been observed.
Otherwise, it's just a matter of opinion.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Ok, S_U, you asked for it... here is the first stab.

I am somewhat breathless as to what leads you to make this global assertion. Not only does it not make sense, but I fail to grasp how "if there was a "god" then everything would revolve around me" part. Um... S_U, why is that?

In a "response" to Sunstone you state:
You have identified yourself with "deity" by implying you hold special knowledge that is virtually completely unknown (or recognized AS knowledge) by your fellow human animals.

You give a further remark to Sunstone that is as clear as mud.


I assume simply by going against what you are saying is evidence for you? And you still claim no connection with deity, otherwise how precisely would you know?

In a pithy response to the fairly bored Buttercup you chose to respond with:

To which, I asked the simple question. "May I see the statistical analysis for this unfounded presumption, S_U?" It is a fairly important point and one I was expecting a serious response to.

You saw fit to respond with: Nothing; so much for backing up what you yourself are claiming.

Then you saw fit to reply to me with this wanton piece of derelict thinking:

In one paragraph you refer to what I assume is mankind and not specifically citing yours truly. I have not done a forensic audit of your words, but this seems to be one of the first times you imply that you are dissociated from the race of the human animal.

THEN, in the very next paragraph you claim to be in the same boat as the rest of us and that I am somehow drawing water into that little "boat" and yet you fail to recognize that it is a boat of your own logic that simply does not float.

Next you hit with this telling little missive to LogDog.
Since you are beginning to bare your soul here I thought I add one more cup of water to the sinking boat. You see, S_U, threads on RF have been exceptionally dull of late and I was drawn by your fascinating interaction with my dear friend Buttercup. All I can say is that boredom makes for strange bedfellows. I think what occurred was essentially a feeding frenzy created by your somewhat imperious and ludicrous answers. “Ye reap what ye sow, eh”, as someone once is alleged to have said.

Might I be so bold to ask if your effort to "touch" a specific person paid off? I don't especially care who it is, but I am curious if your ill-conceived project has borne any fruit.

Again, we have a statement that clearly displays that you have some direct connection to deity. Do you have something like the Psychic hotline or perhaps are you channeling your information? If you are channeling, I would advise that you change the station because your reception may be adequate, but your broadcasting mode seems to be sadly lacking.

Next you attempted to "school" TheNewReality with this morsel:
You are flat out saying that it is not important to believe in god, period. Then you assert with a weak appeal to authority something that cannot be substantiated although admittedly most of the world's religions would agree. Allah Akbar, baby -- and all that sort of drivel. Such thinking always makes me think of looking at a jet in flight and saying, "That goes fast!" Since it is the nature of the beast, as it were, the statement is somewhat meaningless to anyone with an IQ beyond single digits. It's like jumping in the water and saying, "Wow, this is wet, eh! Why is it so wet?"

Doppelganger then came by with what is perhaps inspired genius and said to you:


Now I understand EXACTLY what he is talking about as it mirrors my own dwarfed understanding. You, however, responded with this peculiar response that reminded me of our previous conversations about conscience vs. consciousness.

For the life of me I do not know how on Earth you equate what he said with a lack of self esteem. That is bizarre reasoning, so bizarre in fact that it clearly demonstrates a utter abandonment of generally accepted logic. What he is actually saying is that the ego gets puffed up into a wild sense of grandeur that becomes "god-like". Man perceives "god" in his own image and hypothetically horses, if they are egotistical too, who envision "god" as a horse, in their own image. This isn't rocket science.

That is quite enough for now; I haven't even got warmed up yet, more tomorrow.

Wow, you went way back, more than sixty pages to find that one. But that's okay.

Take a person who hasn't gotten everything they've wanted in life. They have to blame someone, right? That's your self survival instinct trying to protect itself, it's your ego telling you over and over "It's not your fault. Blame those people's God whenever they bring Him up since He obviously isn't doing anything to protect you".

I've identified myself with a deity by implying I have special knowledge? But... then there would have to be a deity, right? Also, this so called special knowledge that I have, it ain't so special. It's all readily available and I'm behind those in the lead. Try Lyricus.com if you really want to see the front runners.

I have no connection with God. It's just not possible. And God certainly does not need, or even desire, that I represent Him. But there are ascended beings who do work here. This is how some of them operate. I'm not looking to change you. I know it's a waste of my time, but there is someone that I can awaken.

If my threads are so dull then why does this latest one have over 600 replies? You're throwing out one illogical statement after another.

No, I haven't found them, yet.

If I was channeling, which I am not, then why would I change the station? What knowledge or opinion would I be afraid of acquiring? Are you afraid to read the bible?

Ymir you once again showed everyone how smart you are with such a long recap of my entire history on this thread and you belittled each of my responses. What is the reason you have to throw spears? Do you even know why?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Can't get what to work?



I find it highly ironic that you would accuse us of ego, and then assert that the universe must have been designed to support life simply because life exists. The non-ego view would be that the universe could have been much different, and might not have produced us, or any living being, at all.



Not necessarily so. You assume too much here.


eudaimonia,

Mark
You can't get abiogenesis to work. Your theory of life starting from chemicals and an electric spark just doesn't work.

The non-ego view would be... what? LOL!


The universe did not have to form in a perfect order? Okay, it begins with a gravity well. Now what?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
This wasn't addressed to me, but it's worth answering.

There are many issues in life where a belief or disbelief is of little consequence. For instance, let's say that you are waiting for the bus, and the bus is five minutes late. If you are optimistic, you could tentatively believe that the bus is on its way, and is simply running behind schedule. If you are pessimistic, you could lack the belief that the bus is on its way -- perhaps it ended up in an accident, who knows? -- and you are already using your cellphone to call for a taxi. I call these "half-beliefs", since they are held with little conviction.

What you believe at that time will most likely be of little-to-no consequence the next day. It won't change the way you look at life, the universe, and everything. It won't be one of your "personal truths".

The big philosophical questions, such as "how did the universe we see get here?", are worldview-influencing questions. People who care about such issues spend years contemplating them, because they want to know the truth, or at least get as close to it as they are able. The answers they arive at could have influence on virtually all of their other beliefs. This is why tentative belief is inappropriate here. The cost is too great.

So why don't you not believe in God? What are you afraid of? I suspect that you simply want to have the best answers you can to the big questions of life, just like we do. We're in the same boat.

eudaimonia,

Mark

And what life events or personality has caused a person to be pessimistic or optimistic?

Can you think of any?

Why do I not believe in God? I didn't then I was changed. I cannot forget what I experienced, it would be like forgetting my parents names.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
You can't get abiogenesis to work. Your theory of life starting from chemicals and an electric spark just doesn't work.
Wow, Super, you need to publish this research in Nature. You could be in the running for a Nobel Prize for this important contribution to science. This is really groundbreaking stuff. Why don't you post it here and some scientists on the board could take a look at your work. What's your theory, magic poofing? How does that work?

 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Texts? Show me that the texts are accurate.

Eyewitnesses? Show me the accounts are valid.

Blueprints? Show me that philosophy can only come from God.



All of them faked in exactly the same way? Over the last how many years? yeah, it's all fake. [/sarcasm]

And the thing is, I am capable of going to see for myself that the Eiffel Tower is real. Aside from death, how do you propose to go and see for yourself regarding God?



And please explain how you have determined that the atom is evidence for God? How did you eliminate every other possibility? Hopefully not by that old argument from ignorance, I hope!



So you conclude that the atom could only have come to be through intelligence? Again, I ask, how did you eliminate all the other possibilities? And don't give me that argument from ignorance crap.



Well it all depends. because option two must also explain where that intelligence came from. How simple is that explanation? Can you even provide an explanation? Until you can, you're just guessing, and so far your guesses aree less than convincing.

Hmm, a good chance of killing the woman? Hardly. How does any population survive and grow to 6 billion when there's a good chance that both the baby and mother die?
The fact remains that Childbirth can kill if there are complications. It is inheritantly risky and dangerous - hardly perfect.



or maybe you just want to believe so much that you've convinced yourself that what you see is proof and that anyone who doesn't share your views is just blind. Ever stop to think that others might have a valid reason for believing what they do and that they might even be right? if not, then you are the very definition of "close-minded".



So God looks like a sleeping person? God looks like playing children? God sounds people in a bar talking? God smells like ocean spray? Because it sure sounds to me that you've just picked some things you like and redefined God to include them. Not really any evidence unless you can explain that such a redefinition is justified.



And the puddle said to itself, "This hole in the ground fits me perfectly! It must have been designed to fit me! There's an intelligence out there that has created holes in the ground for me to rest in! Proof of intelligent design!"

And the puddle is wrong.



Right, before you give any more of these things as evidences for intelligent design, could you PLEASE explain how you have eliminated all other possible explanations for these things???

And I'm going to stop quoting your posts here because I am tired and to be honest I have better things to do.

Parts of the bible are accurate. Most of the Urantia book is accurate.
Eyewitnesses? Look for yourself on the next clear night.
Blueprints? How about the atom?

Are you suggesting that every photo of the Eiffel Tower looks exactly the same? No picture of it is ever the same, it's always different! How can something that is supposedly built out of steel change it's appearence?

You are capable of going to see the Eiffel Tower? No you're not because it doesn't exist.

I will see God... when I see Him.

God is absolute to me. Of the things I know, He is at the top. So everything exists because He either intended it to exist or because He allowed it to. Any intelligent creation shows intelligence.

Why do you have to know where God comes from to believe in Him? Atoms can't create themselves and they certainly can't create physical laws or life, so isn't something that is impossible also considered to be less probable?

Giving life to something is what's perfect. You can't see it. Why can't you see it? Do you think so much of yourself that you can't see something as incredible as the creation of life?

I didn't say you were blind. I just said you can't see, I'm sure the problem is not in your eyes.

Others might have a valid reason for believing what they do? Sure, they were tortured with religion as a child so they rebelled against it. Growing up they didn't get all the good toys they wanted for Christmas so they learned to hate it and thus what it represents. They weren't treated like they were special as kids, they were ignored, so maybe they resisted by developing a strong sense of self importance and won't allow anything to now take away their individuality. I could go on and on about what tiny little immature beings do when they can't cope with life. Smoking, drugs, alcohol, violence, anger, fear... they own you.

I didn't redefine God. God still is what He is whether my definition is lacking or not.

But puddles don't talk. Um, they don't think either. And they don't sense their surroundings.

I haven't eliminated all other possible explanations for the universe, the Earth, and life. Have you?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Exactly.
What you need is not mere assertion, but an actual argument that any of these things are the actual result of actual intelligence. Also some kind of explanation of the relationship between the putative intelligence and the particular phenomenon. It might help if you could explain how there could be an intelligence apart from a brain, something which has never been observed.
Otherwise, it's just a matter of opinion.

Is there intelligence in the Pieta? Or did the stone make itself into that shape?

How about a Samurai Sword? Or do you give credit to the steel itself?
 

rasor

Member
1) Perfection is not a prerequisite for all God concepts

2) Perfection, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Not all,but most.
Definitions of god on the Web:
  • [SIZE=-1]
  • the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship[/SIZE]
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Not all,but most.
Definitions of god on the Web:
  • [SIZE=-1]
  • the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship[/SIZE]
Mine is not supernatural, omnipotent, ruler of the universe, nor the object of worship, yet still God.

All that aside, it's rather disingenuous of you to cherry-pick the definitions like that. Where did you even find that one?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
It's not that I don't understand your argument, SuperNatural, I do, really. It's Bishop Paley's watchmaker argument, also that of the Intelligent Design movement. The universe is so enormous, so complex, intricate and balanced, that it must have been created by a correspondingly immense and brilliant intelligence; it could not possibly have come into existence by accident. Whether at the astronomical or the microscopic level, such specific, functional, complicated structures imply a wondrous creator. This seems intuitively self-evident to you, so much so that it seems to you that anyone who denies it is either an idiot or has some self-serving reason to deny such an apparent truth.

First, I strongly suggest that you advance your argument without denigrating those who disagree with you. Smarter and better people than either of us are both theists and atheists. Indeed, if anything, empirical evidence suggests a strong correlation between atheism and higher intelligence and education, so I don't think you should go there. One could as well argue that anyone who feels the need to invent an anthropomorphic deity is psychologically immature, so how about if we don't go there, and just deal with the argument itself, O.K.?

There are a number of problems with it. First, the history of science has shown us that almost everything that is intuitively obvious to us turned out to be false. Speaking for myself, it is intuitively obvious to me that the earth is flat and stationary, and I cannot grasp the theory that it is a ball that is both rotating and traveling through space at tremendous speeds. However, the astronomers tell me that the evidence tells them this is true, and I believe them. In general, we find that the scientific approach to things works rather well, though not perfectly, and science instructs us not to accept what seems to be so, but to develop predictions and test them to see whether they are.

For example, it seemed to me that if certain deities exist, as described, then intercessory prayer should work. The evidence indicates that it doesn't, so this strengthens my suspicion that they don't.

Another problem is that if you look at the universe differently, it doesn't look so darned designed. It's kind of subjective. I mean, after all, 99.99% of it is just plain nothing. That's weird. Even within the individual atom, 99.99% of it is plain old nothing, or so they tell me. (Like I said, it all seems crazy to me, but that's what the physicists tell us.) It seems like there's randomness and uncertainty at the core of all existence. That's an odd way to design things. And stuff like that. Certainly human existence seems more random and absurd than well-designed and purposeful.

Also, it seems that our brains have evolved to detect patterns and create stories, whether they are really there or not. When we trip on a rock, we have a tendency to look back at the rock accusingly, even though we know that stuff just happens, and the rock didn't deliberately trip us. So it seems more likely to me that my mind is such that it will tend to leap to the conclusion of something analogous to me, a purposeful actor who thinks and creates, even when there isn't one.

Also, the whole argument is really one of analogy--the universe is LIKE a watch. Obviously the analogy fails on a lot of levels. But even more, we just run into stuff we don't know. We only have one universe, so we don't know whether it's more like a watch or more like a turnip; we have nothing to compare it to.

I think the best answer to the ultimate mystery of life and the universe is just "I don't know." To me it looks like people who aren't comfortable with that see a Being there. Is it really there? Am I more selfish than you, or more brave?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Here are all the examples I've given as evidence of intelligence:

The universe
The Earth
atom
gravity
strong and weak nuclear forces
relative physics
life
This is just a list of things that you believe show evidence of intelligence. For them to actually be evidence of intelligence, you need to demonstrate how each of them actually require intelligence to exist.

and here is all the evidence the athiests have provided:

removes lollipop from mouth- "Um, no it's not..." -puts lollipop back in
And until you provide some foundation for your claims, statements like that are just as valid as what you've put forward.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Is there intelligence in the Pieta? Or did the stone make itself into that shape?
Just because somethings are created does not imply that everything was created. That's your problem. I can discern the difference between the Pieta and a natural rock precisely because it was created--and the rock wasn't. I have something to compare it to. To what do you compare the universe?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
It's not that I don't understand your argument, SuperNatural, I do, really. It's Bishop Paley's watchmaker argument, also that of the Intelligent Design movement. The universe is so enormous, so complex, intricate and balanced, that it must have been created by a correspondingly immense and brilliant intelligence; it could not possibly have come into existence by accident. Whether at the astronomical or the microscopic level, such specific, functional, complicated structures imply a wondrous creator. This seems intuitively self-evident to you, so much so that it seems to you that anyone who denies it is either an idiot or has some self-serving reason to deny such an apparent truth.

First, I strongly suggest that you advance your argument without denigrating those who disagree with you. Smarter and better people than either of us are both theists and atheists. Indeed, if anything, empirical evidence suggests a strong correlation between atheism and higher intelligence and education, so I don't think you should go there. One could as well argue that anyone who feels the need to invent an anthropomorphic deity is psychologically immature, so how about if we don't go there, and just deal with the argument itself, O.K.?

There are a number of problems with it. First, the history of science has shown us that almost everything that is intuitively obvious to us turned out to be false. Speaking for myself, it is intuitively obvious to me that the earth is flat and stationary, and I cannot grasp the theory that it is a ball that is both rotating and traveling through space at tremendous speeds. However, the astronomers tell me that the evidence tells them this is true, and I believe them. In general, we find that the scientific approach to things works rather well, though not perfectly, and science instructs us not to accept what seems to be so, but to develop predictions and test them to see whether they are.

For example, it seemed to me that if certain deities exist, as described, then intercessory prayer should work. The evidence indicates that it doesn't, so this strengthens my suspicion that they don't.

Another problem is that if you look at the universe differently, it doesn't look so darned designed. It's kind of subjective. I mean, after all, 99.99% of it is just plain nothing. That's weird. Even within the individual atom, 99.99% of it is plain old nothing, or so they tell me. (Like I said, it all seems crazy to me, but that's what the physicists tell us.) It seems like there's randomness and uncertainty at the core of all existence. That's an odd way to design things. And stuff like that. Certainly human existence seems more random and absurd than well-designed and purposeful.

Also, it seems that our brains have evolved to detect patterns and create stories, whether they are really there or not. When we trip on a rock, we have a tendency to look back at the rock accusingly, even though we know that stuff just happens, and the rock didn't deliberately trip us. So it seems more likely to me that my mind is such that it will tend to leap to the conclusion of something analogous to me, a purposeful actor who thinks and creates, even when there isn't one.

Also, the whole argument is really one of analogy--the universe is LIKE a watch. Obviously the analogy fails on a lot of levels. But even more, we just run into stuff we don't know. We only have one universe, so we don't know whether it's more like a watch or more like a turnip; we have nothing to compare it to.

I think the best answer to the ultimate mystery of life and the universe is just "I don't know." To me it looks like people who aren't comfortable with that see a Being there. Is it really there? Am I more selfish than you, or more brave?

I don't think people who deny an intelligent creator are idiots, there are other reasons, personal reasons they can't accept God.

My responses are usually dependant on the replies given. If a person is looking for a fight, they get one. If they give sarcasm they can expect it in return. If a person wants to be simple, they can get a simple response. If they want to be logical, I can accomodate them. If they want philosophy, we can go that route as well. People get a natural response from me, one they caused.

Empirical evidence suggests? No, it doesn't. No evidence suggests anything, you see what you want to see.

It's intuitively obvious that the earth is flat and stationary? Most of the time but then travel to the coast and stare at the ocean on a calm day. You can see the faint curvature of the earth. You realize you are standing on the outside of a spinning sphere. You might even fall to your knees afraid of flying away.

Are you under the impression that I am against your scientists? I'm not. I would count on their conclusions before I would ever ask a priest. The thing is, your scientists are just as human as the rest of you. They are selfish and controlled by emotions thus everything they say must be questioned, just as everything a priest or anyone else says must also be questioned.

You decide what you want to believe, I just want to know why you decided not to believe in God? I want to know the cause of your decision. A lack of evidence is not a cause.

Your example about deities and prayer, since prayer does not work in the way you expected it to you could also conclude that deities exist, just not in the way they were described.

The universe is 99.99% nothing and the atom is 99.99% nothing. You don't see a similarity here? It's quite the accident, isn't it? Now compare the atom to our solar system, any similarity there?

The universe is both chaos and organization. You cannot only see one, they are both in play.

The uncertainty is not in existence, it's in you. You have so many doubts. "If God, then how come..." I am here to tell you that each of these doubts have answers, that was the point of this thread but it was taken over by everyone putting up their self defense mechanisms. You can't accept God. To you, there is no choice in the matter. God can't exist. HE CAN'T! I just really want to know why you feel that way. I know why I couldn't accept God but you could not have lived my life. I want to know what happened to you and I also want to tell you that "You will be okay". You don't have to understand everything now, just do your best to make it through.

And that's the real reason you are here at RF, isn't it?
 

Panda

42?
Premium Member
Where's my evidence? Nope, not till you show me yours, and I hope it's more than a picture this time.

Maybe you should learn something about the universe, like maybe, how particles invent physical laws. Yeah, go figure that one out.


Your fascination with everything needing to be created or made is what blinds you from being able to understand. For my evidence I need none, my belief is based on a lack of evidence to support the God theory, this is the natural state of being. People who believe in God have obviously been given evidence of some sort to make them believe, everyone is born an atheist. Anyway I will give evidence that God doesn't exist when you manage to give evidence that the invisible dragon that lives in my garden that only I can see doesn't really exist.
 

Panda

42?
Premium Member
You decide what you want to believe, I just want to know why you decided not to believe in God? I want to know the cause of your decision. A lack of evidence is not a cause.

Yes it is, you just like to assume we have something against God. Well how can we have something against something that doesn't exist? It is impossible.
 
Top