Do You Know Why You Don't Believe?

[Willamena]

Secretly, yes, that's what they all want! Form a little clique and furbal each other for the sake of appearances, having cool, well-furballed friends..."we're oh-so-intelligent, y'see? The proof's in the points". It's sad.

Frubals for that!

 

[Freelancer7]

What reason would you want to try and prove God to those that don't believe?

 

[Autodidact]

A well thought out reply. Except I have given support, an incredible design requiring billions of precise steps does not do so without direction.

But can you do one thing, make one stretch for the sake of the original question in this thread, what is it that is really keeping you from believing in God?

I know you all say it's a lack of evidence but that's not it. Essentially, by saying that, you are saying "I haven't figured enough of Him out yet so until I do I cannot believe", as if you are afraid of being made a fool of. If there is one thing worth being a fool for, isn't it your Father?

Maybe you've been looking in the wrong place and maybe you've been asking the wrong people? The priests can't even figure out their own book let alone begin to explain how the universe works.

There are answers and they are available but it helps if you're not afraid to go looking for them.

Super, it's so hard to restrain my temper enough to even bother to answer you. You don't know anything about me, what I believe or why. The fact that you think you do is obnoxious and frankly, stupid. Just stop it. If you want to talk about evidence or logic, do so. I'm respectful enough not to have told you by now that it's only your fear of meaninglessness and mortality that has driven you to belief in a mythical personal God just to provide some meaning and comfort to your sorry, pitiful life, and I would appreciate it if you would extend the same respect to me and all the rest of us here.

I was going to explain exactly why I don't believe in God, but decided I'm not willing to continue to dialogue with you until and unless you are willing to stop assuming you know something about me that you could not possibly know. If not, it's a waste of my valuable time.

 

[camanintx]

A well thought out reply. Except I have given support, an incredible design requiring billions of precise steps does not do so without direction.

You have made many claims that the universe is too complex and precise to have happened naturally, but you haven't given any reason why it could have been any different.

 

[Super Universe]

What reason would you want to try and prove God to those that don't believe?

I don't want to prove God. How could I?

I simply asked why people don't believe. They just chose not to answer.

 

[Nanda]

Frubals for that!

Frubals for Irony!

 

[Super Universe]

Super, it's so hard to restrain my temper enough to even bother to answer you. You don't know anything about me, what I believe or why. The fact that you think you do is obnoxious and frankly, stupid. Just stop it. If you want to talk about evidence or logic, do so. I'm respectful enough not to have told you by now that it's only your fear of meaninglessness and mortality that has driven you to belief in a mythical personal God just to provide some meaning and comfort to your sorry, pitiful life, and I would appreciate it if you would extend the same respect to me and all the rest of us here.

I was going to explain exactly why I don't believe in God, but decided I'm not willing to continue to dialogue with you until and unless you are willing to stop assuming you know something about me that you could not possibly know. If not, it's a waste of my valuable time.

It's hard to restrain your temper? Why? Are you taking all of this way too seriously?

Nothing anyone says here changes a thing. None of us have any real power in the universe, this is just a place for opinions. If it's getting to you then take a deep breath and tell yourself "I'm not going to get all worked up over this".

I don't know anything about you? Uh, yes I do. Do you actually think you are different from everyone else, everyone else who shops, laughs, plays, works, and raises children?

Do I know what specific clothes you wear? No, but that's just color. Do I know specifically what music you listen to? No, but again, color... You don't get it, do you?

Yes, my life is sooo pitiful, all of us simple folk who travelled the world and retired early are that way. You wish you could be so pitiful...

 

[Super Universe]

You have made many claims that the universe is too complex and precise to have happened naturally, but you haven't given any reason why it could have been any different.

I might build your house for you. I might landscape around it as well. I might put in your driveway but after doing all that I'm not going to wash your dog as well. Do it yourself.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I might build your house for you.

Given your criteria for intelligent design, I'd stay out of the house.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't want to prove God. How could I?

I simply asked why people don't believe. They just chose not to answer.

We answered you, Super, you just chose not to believe us. You think we are all either liars, or that you know better than us what we believe and why.

 

[Autodidact]

It's hard to restrain your temper? Why? Are you taking all of this way too seriously?

Nothing anyone says here changes a thing. None of us have any real power in the universe, this is just a place for opinions. If it's getting to you then take a deep breath and tell yourself "I'm not going to get all worked up over this".

I don't know anything about you? Uh, yes I do. Do you actually think you are different from everyone else, everyone else who shops, laughs, plays, works, and raises children?

Do I know what specific clothes you wear? No, but that's just color. Do I know specifically what music you listen to? No, but again, color... You don't get it, do you?

Yes, my life is sooo pitiful, all of us simple folk who travelled the world and retired early are that way. You wish you could be so pitiful...

Obviously my point went right over your head. I'm done; you've exhausted my patience.

 

[Sunstone]

What reason would you want to try and prove God to those that don't believe?

It's his hobby.

 

[s2a]

Hello Super Universe,

You said:

Reason does not allow/permit disbelief, free will does.

Jabberwocky.

If every sentient person (both past and present) has been "gifted (by some alleged deity)" with "free will (or the capacity of free thought)", then the human capacity of "reason" (or critical thinking, logic) should be expected to find itself homogeneously represented throughout our species as a whole. Even if we accept the faith-based claim than mankind has been "given" free will by some divine influence/authority (despite the lack of any evidence that this claim is supported by any evidential fact), it still doesn't "explain" why some people utilize critical thinking in evaluating/discerning/deducing/determining relevant (and acceptably burdened) "facts"; while other "freethinking" people (of any particular faith-based beliefs/religion) readily and earnestly assert their pious assumptions and claims, and still insist that unburdened, untested, and inevidenced beliefs prevail as attributable/incontravertable "fact" by means of some spiritual "revelation", "miracle", or other supernatural "cause".

If assumed as "true" (as you assert) that everyone is a possessor of "free will", then what is the origin (or purpose) of any reasoned doubt? If I insist (as an article of dogmatic faith) that the sun is a deity that daily traverses the brilliant sky within a chariot of fire...and all who choose to listen and accept that claim "freely" as being factually "true"...what then do we evaluate as fair employment of any critical thinking or intellectual curiosity?

"Free will" makes no demands of any resource of critical thinking, skepticism, or objective evaluation/review. "Free will"...at best...permits any vocal moron to to insist that their opinion/philosophy/religion defies any/all capacities of reason or critical thinking. And that particular self-serving rationalization...is dumb.

Your reason is a cemented thought process that gives a person grounding, a foundation that you can lean on and always trust that it will be there and be exactly as you expect it to be.

Ummm, what?

I know the words "arrogant" and "asinine" begin with the same letter of the alphabet, but I also know and understand that "idiocy" and "inanity" can be applied with inaccurate mischaracterizations of another person's perspective, or thought processes. Do you possess any understanding whatsoever regarding a skeptic's view of utterly unsubstantiated claims?

Your ego says that since you don't understand God there is no reason for you to believe in Him since He can't be counted on to be as you expect.

Crap. Bunk. I retain no "expectations" from your God, or anyone else's.

Do you "understand" E.Coli bacterium? If not, does your "ego" attempt to rationalize away a "belief" of bacterium that yet defies your "understanding"?

[I would also note that your use of (the word) "reason" avoids/deflects from the fact that "reason" encompasses more than one definition, and more than one understood meaning in rapt application. A "reason" can be as simple as an "excuse", or an "explanation" of a cause/circumstance/outcome. "To reason" is to look beyond some facile "excuse", or a baselessly attributed "cause".

Critical thinking and logical reason eschew factors of bias and prejudice attendant to personal ego. Aspects of "self-importance", "beliefs", or expectant (or hoped for) outcomes are utterly irrelevant and moot when utilizing "reason" or scientific methodology.

Do I believe in Zeus? Of course, His modern name is God. Do I believe in Apollo? Yes, His modern name is God.

"His modern name is God"?

Really?

Beyond your own personal insight/inspiration, could you cite (and quote from) any religious text/source that proclaims the particular god of your faith as being the very same god as Zeus or Apollo?

Do I believe in Athena? Of course, she is the mythological goddess of wisdom. You seem to really be stuck on the different names for the Creator?

Not at all. Some religions have no name for such a "creator". Other religions proclaim a "Creator" turtle, or other anthropomorphic creature/entity.

If you go to Germany the name for water is 'wasser', if you go to Mexico it's 'agua', but the water is still the same water. Call it what you want, the name does not change what it is. Or, does your ego tell you not to believe in water as well?

Your dumbfounding lack of any "logic" in even proposing such an idiosyncratic conclusion of false dichotomy, only further diminishes your hopes of establishing some sort of legitimacy in rational debate.

I have heard no claim of fairies or flying unicorns, oh and, Thor is not dead. They just changed the name.

Um, OK. Your testimony is now a part of the virtual record. You apparently live under a rock, in some remote region in the middle of nowhere.

I offered:
"NONE are particularly eager to even partially mirror the uncommitted capacities afford within human compassion and empathy within the human condition on a whole."

You pitifully rebutted:

Wow! Nice complexity! I see, your ego is quite upset that God and the universe aren't all about you, well, tough... I guess you're ego is just going to have to be upset forever then because it's never going to be about you. Ever...

For once, it seems that you tentatively begin to grasp my overall perspective in this matter.

Indeed, I DON'T believe that the universe "cares" about me one whit.
Not one bit.
Not one iota.
Nada.
Zip.
Zero.

Now there's an egotistical perspective to further mischaracterize and impugn!

"An espoused, broadly cosmological perspective of acknowledged personal insignificance, is therefore an egotistical and self-centered view!"

"This guy is so egotistical and self-centered, that he can't believe that the cosmos is crafted specifically for him, solely that he alone might seek some personal salvation and redemption from an admittedly jealous and vengeful (but hey, loving and caring) "Creator"! What a nut! How can he NOT see that the universe is created specifically to serve his own interests and purposes in avoiding unpleasant retributions from that "Creator"?

"Sheesh...what an ego...".

God will not interefere in the affairs of biologics. That would violate the whole purpose of the earth and this universe.

Interesting claim.

So "God" does not EVER "interfere" with living things? So...adherent's prayers (to God) for healing, redemption, protection, or deliverance is...ultimately futile? Perhaps you could refine what you infer/imply by "biologics"?

And while you're at it...please define "the whole purpose of the earth and this universe."

I would be fascinated to read whatever you can offer in specific answer...

I'm sorry, it's just not about your ego and it's never going to be. Uh, why doesn't your ego stop starvation, child abuse, ignorance, slavery, and mindless war? Humans act to protect and defend others? Sure, some do, but most ignore it. It's your world, fix it yourself!

I'm doing what I can, with what I have.

What are you doing to alleviate those illustrated ills of the human condition?

I invite you to reply within the thread entitled "What do you care about?"

Where does your sense of personal ego enter into your supposed "broad" perspective? It's in every word you typed.

I enjoy drinking up every moment of existence available.

Believer's claim that God is personal? Quite the jealous rant there. Hmm, now why would you be so jealous of those who feel that they have a personal relationship with God?

You confuse envy with sympathy, and pity.

Ego works in many ways to support itself. It will take whatever personality elements it has and use them for gain. There are some televangelists who are quite full of themselves. But this thread is about you. I asked "Why don't YOU believe?" and the answer I got was: "There are just too many names for God"

It would seem that that is all "you got". Unfortunate.

I can neither apologize--nor be held accountable--for your obviously lacking capacities of cogitation or comprehension. You either feign stupidity, or epitomize a most unfortunate and convincingly earnest example of a "true believers" willful ignorance and evasively purposed lacking discernment.

In either event, you have my sympathies...

We are absurdly coalexced starstuff? There's nothing absurd about it. We're an amazing creation. A blend of many forms of energy. The stars are jealous of us.

"Nuff said.

You are an unchallenging and (worse yet) uninteresting foil in earnestly discussing/debating the topic/inquiry put forward.

You asked...

"Do you Know Why You Don't Believe?"

I answered in the affirmative, and subsequently detailed the foundations of my knowledge.

You then attempted to refine my commentary to suit your own preconceived/preconditioned and otherwise irrevocable faith-based beliefs.

You are thusly exposed in your impotence, and my work is done.

 

[Super Universe]

s2a:

Critical thinking/logic should be throughout our species as a whole? No.

Each person has a unique set of personality elements. A mother might say that her child gets something from her and that the child gets some other thing from the father but this is not true. The child is human so it has a human personality set, naturally there are some similarity between the mother and father but each child's personality is unique, never seen before. The blend and strength of each personality element determines the child's primary nature. Environment then begins to play a role and actually becomes a greater effect.

And now you've hit upon the purpose of this thread. I want to know why you don't believe? What happened to you that won't allow you to believe in God?

People doubt for various reasons, something happened to them to cause it. You set your own rules for what you will come to believe. I just want to know where you set them. Proof of God is the universe yet you refuse to accept it while believing in gravity which you have no proof of whatsoever. You don't even know where it comes from.

After treading through your literary junkyard you have the gall to reply "Ummm, what?" Instead of attempting, and failing, to sound smart with your complicated word structure (you make it boring) maybe you should develop enough confidence in yourself to keep it simple. Making it complex doesn't make it better. No one is writing a science paper here. You're not impressing anyone except yourself, it's like a man who laughs at his own jokes that no one else gets.

Critical thinking does not deny the existence of God. See how simple and easy that was?

You claim you have no expectations from God? Except to prove Himself to you.

Tribal man, in his struggle to understand nature, blamed God for every unknown thing: disease, meteors, floods, storms, drought, birth defects... Various cultures naturally gave the Creator different names just as there are many names for water, but I'm sure you think it's something completely different, after all, it's not called water so then it must be something else then.

Rational debate does not include insults but since you want to go that route I can easily accomodate you. Since you can't discuss this without getting your dandruff up maybe you should go back to your normal, failed, practice of impressing your students who are going farther in life than you are and leaving you behind.

God never interferes with living things? Never, but that does not mean prayer isn't useful. You're not going to get any return or reward from God but you must might make yourself feel better and if that is not enough for you then you shouldn't be praying in the first place. It's like giving a small gift and expecting a bigger one in return.

Now, there are things that you don't understand about energy (not EMR energy, another type, think spiritual). This energy can be given away and received but not taken. It is possible to help other living things by praying for them but that does not mean you can always make a sick person well. The person's mindset controls their own energy and this has much more effect on their body.

Define the purpose of the earth and universe? To learn.

What am I doing? Try these:
Ryan's Well Foundation

Kiva.org - Loans that change lives

MSF-USA: HOMEPAGE

You feel sympathy and pity for those who believe in God? But even if God did not exist, what do they lose? Why do they still gain?

Hmm, back to the insults again. What is it about you that requires you to have agreement? Is that why you are a teacher? Because the books are already full of the right information found by others but you can preach it as if it's your discovery and the students are forced by law to listen to you?

 

[Freelancer7]

I don't want to prove God. How could I?

I simply asked why people don't believe. They just chose not to answer.

You're an Intelligent man I am sure you could if you put heart, soul and mind to the question or even created an equation to prove the question.

 

[Freelancer7]

s2a:

Critical thinking/logic should be throughout our species as a whole? No.

Each person has a unique set of personality elements. A mother might say that her child gets something from her and that the child gets some other thing from the father but this is not true. The child is human so it has a human personality set, naturally there are some similarity between the mother and father but each child's personality is unique, never seen before. The blend and strength of each personality element determines the child's primary nature. Environment then begins to play a role and actually becomes a greater effect.

And now you've hit upon the purpose of this thread. I want to know why you don't believe? What happened to you that won't allow you to believe in God?

People doubt for various reasons, something happened to them to cause it. You set your own rules for what you will come to believe. I just want to know where you set them. Proof of God is the universe yet you refuse to accept it while believing in gravity which you have no proof of whatsoever. You don't even know where it comes from.

After treading through your literary junkyard you have the gall to reply "Ummm, what?" Instead of attempting, and failing, to sound smart with your complicated word structure (you make it boring) maybe you should develop enough confidence in yourself to keep it simple. Making it complex doesn't make it better. No one is writing a science paper here. You're not impressing anyone except yourself, it's like a man who laughs at his own jokes that no one else gets.

Critical thinking does not deny the existence of God. See how simple and easy that was?

You claim you have no expectations from God? Except to prove Himself to you.

Tribal man, in his struggle to understand nature, blamed God for every unknown thing: disease, meteors, floods, storms, drought, birth defects... Various cultures naturally gave the Creator different names just as there are many names for water, but I'm sure you think it's something completely different, after all, it's not called water so then it must be something else then.

Rational debate does not include insults but since you want to go that route I can easily accomodate you. Since you can't discuss this without getting your dandruff maybe you should go back to your normal, failed, practice of impressing your students who are going farther in life than you are and leaving you behind.

God never interferes with living things? Never, but that does not mean prayer isn't useful. You're not going to get any return or reward from God but you must might make yourself feel better and if that is not enough for you then you shouldn't be praying in the first place. It's like giving a small gift and expecting a bigger one in return.

Now, there are things that you don't understand about energy (not EMR energy, another type, think spiritual). This energy can be given away and received but not taken. It is possible to help other living things by praying for them but that does not mean you can always make a sick person well. The person's mindset controls their own energy and this has much more effect on their body.

Define the purpose of the earth and universe? To learn.




You feel sympathy and pity for those who believe in God? But even if God did not exist, what do they lose? Why do they still gain?

Hmm, back to the insults again. What is it about you that requires you to have agreement? Is that why you are a teacher? Because the books are already full of the right information found by others but you can preach it as if it's your discovery and the students are forced by law to listen to you?

I wood say definately on your way to becoming a philosophers psycologist

 

[McBell]

What is the reason you don't believe in God? Or the reason you're not absolutely positively sure God exists?

I'd guess the number one reason is because people see bad things happening all around them and can't understand why God would allow it to happen.

How would you rate the other reasons not to believe?

Now the key question, where would you rate your own ego as a reason and do you realize it's the main reason?

Why do you not believe in all the other possible deities that are mentioned?
Is it due to ego?
Your ego, or the ego of your deity?

 

[Super Universe]

Why do you not believe in all the other possible deities that are mentioned?
Is it due to ego?
Your ego, or the ego of your deity?

Answering a question with another question is avoidance. It's okay though, I already know the answer...

 

[McBell]

Answering a question with another question is avoidance. It's okay though, I already know the answer...

And yet you did not even do that.
You question was answered numerous time through out this thread.
One wonders why you refuse to address my simple questions...

 

[camanintx]

You have made many claims that the universe is too complex and precise to have happened naturally, but you haven't given any reason why it could have been any different.

I might build your house for you. I might landscape around it as well. I might put in your driveway but after doing all that I'm not going to wash your dog as well. Do it yourself.

The wave function of the universe explains why the universe is the way it is without introducing any mythical beings. But I'm sure you can explain where Stephen Hawking went askew.