Do You Know Why You Don't Believe?

[Autodidact]

And who are you?

Autodidact. Is there something specific you wanted to know?

 

[Wandered Off]

Visit a Southern Baptist church sometime. You'll see what you are missing out on.

I'm afraid that would do more to confirm his current position than alter it. I'm much happier now that I'm missing out on that experience than when I wasn't.

 

[s2a]

Hello SuperUniverse,

You said:

Hardened faith? Actually I am a man of little faith. I trust bridges and buildings because I have to. I trust people like the police and firemen and doctors because I have to.

You really don't have to...

As for God and the universe, faith never comes into it. I know.

You know. Wow.

Yet you suppose to challenge others regarding their piddling and conflating egos in interfering with their own reason(s), and by supllanting some self-important denial of whatever you claim "you know"? Irony, where is thy sting?

One definition of the word "ego": (as provided by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language)
--"An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit."

But..."You know".

Maybe next time, instead of your tired old rant that avoids answering the question (you remember the OP don't you?) you could just say "I'd rather not answer it at this time".

Tell you what.

I'll cut and paste, verbatim , my previously directed reply to your OP [see post #733 in this thread]...
You asked:

What is the reason you don't believe in God?

I answered:
It's reason that allows/permits disbelief of any specified claim.

Asked, and answered. Either you did not like, or did not understand/appreciate, my answer.

Your reflexive inquiry that followed asked:

Or the reason you're not absolutely positively sure God exists?

I replied:
"Absolutely, positively"? Reason both allows and presumes prevailing doubt as a standard of acceptable measure in ascertaining (deducing) the most prevailing and predominantly evidentiary conclusions.

The "reason" I don't believe in your god is because I doubt the legitimacy (or earnestly-lent "testimony") of the claim of it's/His existence.

You see? Once again...your OP asked...then answered.

Yet you continue to allege that I have not answered your OP. Clearly, and most evidently, you remain in error, and your allegation has no merit in fact.

It seems that either you did not appreciate, or agree with the directed answers I specifically lent your OP. Fine with me. But your continued insistence that no answer has been provided...is demonstrably groundless, and no reasonable person would persist in such repetitive pointlessness. I know...I won't.

You're not impressing anyone with your insults and you are never going to intimidate me. Ever.

Again, poor projection on your part. I have no interests in constraining your views or opinions. If you are "intimidated" by strident and sustained rebuttals to those expressed opinions...that is your own personal challenge to overcome.

[And, fwiw, I have received a fair number of supportive frubals from RF members upon my posted rebuttals as their pertain to our exchanges. Once again, you are wrong.]

We all have something happening to us every millisecond of our existence? Yes we do but we don't all handle it the same way. Some men cower in battle, others charge ahead. It's the same battle.

And...?

You can measure gravity? It seems you need to be able to predict something in order to believe in it.

Nope.

But let's recall that your OP asks:
"What is the reason you don't believe in God?"...

...and...

"...Or the reason you're not absolutely positively sure God exists?"

I accept the explanations afforded by the latest discoveries/revelations supporting/validating prevailing theories of gravity because they can be measured...and because they permit further investigative/experiential methods of predictive outcomes/results.

"God theories"...don't.

I "believe in" human emotion and love, but then, we can both observe and feel such emotions. Just the same, human emotions (like love) are nearly impossible to quantify, or consistently predict what acts will accompany or result from such emotions.Ya see? I don't need emotions to be predictable or quantifiable to "believe" that they exist, and are quite real.

Some would like to "believe" that human emotions and self-awareness/consciousness are "evidence" of a god/deity. Funny thing is...I can experience love without some requisite deity as "explanation" for my emotions.

You need to understand it to a level that you feel is acceptable. So, since you don't understand God, since you can't comprehend how or why, you refuse to believe.

Maybe if your god wasn't so determinedly "unfathomable" and "surpassing all understanding" (or just conveniently invisible and omnipresent/omniscient), even low grade morons and egotistically-driven, self-ingratiating apostates like myself could prospectively shed our stubborn "denials" of such a plainly evident god. So maybe there's hope for me yet...

Glaring omission? Sigh... I posted where God came from long ago in this thread.

My bad. I confess that I did not read though all 80 some pages of this thread before I lent my direct answer to your OP. Perhaps you would do me the courtesy of referencing your relevant post.

You make claims without even attempting to find the answers. Something made you very stubborn, so much that you have to be provided everything, you can't and won't find or discover anything yourself.

You presume much in your enlightenment. I have made no claims of "insightful knowledge" or "truth". I have not claimed that your god does not exist. I have, point in fact, invited you (at least twice now) to better understand my own perspective (in another referenced thread), and welcomed you to comment/rebut within same. Within that thread (and OP), I detail exactly what I would require to "believe" in (either) your particularly claimed god...or any other claimed god(s). Perhaps the "answer" you seek (from me) might be found there...

Now you want me to answer questions when you refuse to answer the OP?

I have adequately demonstrated (with verbatim quotation) that your insistent allegation in this regard remains as repeated error on your part.
[I can't help but note that quite a few other contributors to this thread have also, repeatedly, lent direct answer to your OP. Your favored reply has been..."You didn't answer the question!". I would tend to side with these other member's conclusions, for your repetitive insistences to the contrary epitomize a level of denial (or lacking comprehension) that is only tedious and predictable.
Your falsely assumptive conclusion has no merit. Try again, or not...I really don't care.

I'll give you an example instead: A mother loses her young son in a terrible accident. There is nothing she could have done to prevent it yet she still feels guilty. A year later she is still having trouble dealing with her loss and a foolish man tells her "He's gone. Just forget about the boy like he never existed". Do you think it is possible for her to forget about something she knows absolutely positively without a doubt?

I think I can say, with a fair amount of certitude...that your "example" is beggared and deficient, and irrelevant to the "discourse" that has transpired between us. I have never suggested that you should "forget about" your god, which would, in and of itself, presuppose that your god is/was an existent entity.

I do not. You do.

God promises nothing.

Really?

Then it's probably fair that I retain no reasoned expectations/aspirations of your god. Quid pro quo.

If you don't like it, tough... build your own universe then.

You misunderstand...again. Your god plays no role in my confronting personal choices and accepting accountability for the subsequent outcomes that result from those choices. I have "built my own universe"--in a manner of speaking--and your god played no part in it's "creation". If He (It?) doesn't like it...tough.

Is there scientific method to detect spiritual energy? You're not there yet, give it another 80 years or so.

OK...but I don't think I'll be around by then to appreciate that predicted discovery.

Can unbelievers experience this energy? Just as everyone else, we all experience it we just don't realize it.

Oh, I see...because...you know.

 

[s2a]

Why do you think people crave power? Having control over others gives them a boost.

Is this even remotely relevant to your previous (unfounded) claim above?

I can only speculate as to why others might "crave" power. I do not. I crave donuts, and lusty women that like to be on top.

You intentionally misunderstood. God does not heal anyone, people give their energy to others when they pray for them. PEOPLE! Not God.

Cool. Three "intentional" questions...

1) Wherefrom does this "energy" originate? Does it radiate like a space heater, or is it user directional, like when my wife gives me "that look"?
2) Can this "energy" make my '88 Honda Accord run without filling up on gas?
3) Does this transferable "energy" leave any significant carbon footprint?

I also said you cannot always make others well and you chose to read it as saying that faith can heal all ailments.

So...shall I infer then that illness and death result from inadequacies attributed to insufficient (or absent) prayerful transferrals of "spiritual energy"? Does modern medicine, or personal lifestyle habits, or a bazillion other randomly occurring daily events have any bearing on an individual's health or longevity?

When I get a headache, I take aspirin. Soon afterwards, the headache's gone. No prayer sessions, no intake of "spiritual energy" (unless aspirin has some).

Now why would you twist it around like that?

Because the claim was inherently worthy of sardonic punctuation.

Oh, and this...

The Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), published online March 30 [2006] by the American Heart Journal, showed no positive effect from the use of third-party intercessory prayer on behalf of patients undergoing a specific type of heart surgery at six medical centers around the United States when compared with a control group who were not prayed for as part of the study.

Another unexpected result: Patients who knew they were being prayed for had somewhat more medical complications than another group who also had received prayer but were uncertain as to whether they had or not. Researchers had expected the reverse outcome.

Source: Christian Science Monitor

What would you be afraid of? You are afraid of that which you do not understand so you don't believe in those things and it makes you feel safe.

Gee, thanks doc. Perhaps, if we have a few more "sessions" like this one, I'll find myself back on the path to full recovery from my condition of denial and self-deceipt. Why feel "safe" in my comforting 'denials" of your god, when I could be properly fearful instead?

To learn what? All there is to learn. Think of yourself as God. You are supreme in the void. Just you and nothingness. It's big and very quiet, forever. Wouldn't you create something?

I don't know.

If I found myself in a room that was dark, and stark, and utterly void of anything of a physical nature...I might ask myself..."How the Hell did I get here? I wonder who put me in this dark and desolate place?". But...I'm only human, not a god. Maybe your god asked the very same questions I would have asked of myself...or maybe not. Maybe your god just assumed that he was the "be all, end all" of his little room...and we're all but figments of his momentary imagination while he plays with himself.

If God did not exist then believer's promote a cheap lie? Visit a Southern Baptist church sometime. You'll see what you are missing out on.

Oh brother.

Do spare yourself the ignominy of rapt ignorance and uninformed assumptive conclusions when concerning yourself with my own experiences with "believers" (especially Southern Baptists).

I live in the very clasp of the buckle of the Bible Belt itself, here in Knoxville, TN.
Hancock County, Tenn. (just a hoot and holler from here) boasts the greatest county concentration (per capita) of any county in the US. (964.1 adherents per 1000 residents). No kidding. "Hard as a rock" Southern Baptist Churches abound in my neck of the woods. The "Southern Baptist Experience" is quite unavoidable in my neighborhood. Don't preach "understanding" to me son.

[You didn't ask, but for "background" as to what my "experiences" entail...you need know that in my latter days of High School, transitioning into early years of collegiate study and frivolity, I was a regular and active participant in Young Life, and later "graduated" to it's (more serious) evangelizing offshoot, "Campaigners". For better or worse, I actively counseled many "won" souls to Christ in my day. I was no "believer" in any true application of the title, but my involvements did placate my Jesus-Hippie girlfriend enough to ensure a steady and reliable date on weekends...until I just couldn't take it or her anymore. Biblical Scripture is no "mystery" to me (though I profess neither authority nor expertise in other's "interpretations" of "God's Word"). I've chanced to read a few other religious texts and dogmatic creeds since then. Lots of claimed deities out there. Yours is but one of many.]

Once more...for what it's worth...if "believers" faithfully adhere to the very foundations and claims that their religion espouses/proclaims, and their "faith" resides "within their heart", then...to these "true believers"...what they claim and believe constitutes "truth" for them, lacking any consideration or contemplation of willfully promoting a deception...or "lies".

But...so what? I don't have that sort of faith. And yes, I still think claimed gods are pure bunk.

As I have opined numerous times on end, "faith" only evidences itself. "Belief" presents neither evidence nor proof of ANYTHING other than an abiding faith and belief in...something...ardently claimed by the very same believers as "truth".

If that's enough "evidence" and "proof" for you...that's fine with me. Really.

My expectations and demands of burdened proofs and testable evidences set a higher standard of credulity and credibility whenever any claims of "truth" are involved (especially the ones that are melded with words like "undeniable", "universal", and "absolute").

What standards do I require? Respect would be nice but you can't return it because you get none in life.

Oh my. I'm cut to the quick, and hurt beyond repair.

You must earn respect; not expect deference to claims of authority/insight/knowledge alone. But hey...you know.

You like to act toward others as your students act towards you, with disgust.

Not at all. I find you a poor foil in reasoned debate, but "disgust" is not an estimable conclusion that I have enjoined...not yet.

Your natural capacity for free thought is what keeps you from believing in God? Nope, you're just afraid of being a fool.

This reminds me of two Biblical proverbs...

Proverbs 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander is a fool.

Proverbs 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

Can a get an "amen" on that?

Our dialogue is a part of the virtual record...

...and I shall rest easy enough for my part in as much...

 

[rasor]

If you think he's not taking any notice of your posts S2a I've been waiting since page 56 for him to tell me what LSD is like.

 

[uss_bigd]

I'd guess the number one reason is because people see bad things happening all around them and can't understand why God would allow it to happen.

question do you beleive in free will?

 

[whereismynotecard]

I don't know if I have already responded to this... But I do not believe in God, because I like to only believe things for which there is logical proof... It does not seem at all logical to me that a magical man (or whatever god is) created a bunch of stuff...

 

[yossarian22]

Yes.
Occam's Razor.

edit: Hmm, 3 word answer. I think I win

 

[Magic Man]

What you point to as evidence, and this is a common misconception by theists, is what everyone experiences no matter what they believe. We all experience this world and universe. We all experience "good" and "bad" things, etc. The difference is that you think it's evidence of something else. It's not. Just because a guy doesn't have a wife doesn't mean he's gay. It simply means he doesn't have a wife. Just because the world is here doesn't mean some intelligent force made i this way. There are plenty of other equally and more logical explanations. You see your life as evidence of God because you're conditioned to do so. A Muslim sees his life as evidence of Allah because he's conditioned to do so. Both of you start with a preconceived idea, and make everything in your life fit that idea. I, however, start without that idea, and make my ideas fit my experiences.

EDIT: Sorry, this was in response to the OP and comments directly thereafter. I had no idea how old this thread was.

 

[whereismynotecard]

What you point to as evidence, and this is a common misconception by theists, is what everyone experiences no matter what they believe. We all experience this world and universe. We all experience "good" and "bad" things, etc. The difference is that you think it's evidence of something else. It's not. Just because a guy doesn't have a wife doesn't mean he's gay. It simply means he doesn't have a wife. Just because the world is here doesn't mean some intelligent force made i this way. There are plenty of other equally and more logical explanations. You see your life as evidence of God because you're conditioned to do so. A Muslim sees his life as evidence of Allah because he's conditioned to do so. Both of you start with a preconceived idea, and make everything in your life fit that idea. I, however, start without that idea, and make my ideas fit my experiences.

EDIT: Sorry, this was in response to the OP and comments directly thereafter. I had no idea how old this thread was.

Agreed.

I have absolutely no reason not to believe what I believe. I ditched religion, and started over... I took everything in to explain life, the universe, and everything, and the conclusion as to what the purpose is......

42.

Just kidding... The purpose doesn't exist. (in my opinion)

 

[3.14]

just wondering to the religious peeps who says god exist, what proof do you have that god still exists?

 

[Somkid]

Well, since you asked... I think the entire idea of god is just silly, a fairy tale and a tool to control people.

 

[+Xausted]

Well, since you asked... I think the entire idea of god is just silly, a fairy tale and a tool to control people.

I think it is more than this though as well, I believe it has a strong element for the individual, rather than just a tool of mass society. It is tool in which people can express their fears and hopes, it defers blame. Religion became a device in which to understand a world that we could not explain or harness, and I believe this is still the case for many today. It appeals to the vain side of our nature (sorry, Christianity does more so than other religions), as we dont want to believe that we 'mean nothing in the grand scheme of things'.

 

[Tau]

Well, since you asked... I think the entire idea of god is just silly, a fairy tale and a tool to control people.

The entire idea?

There are many different opinions on what God actually is, for some it is a label for a collective entity like Pantheism quite unlike an abrahamic perception or a Pagan whom worships real things as aspects of God....

 

[Super Universe]

Yes.
Occam's Razor.

edit: Hmm, 3 word answer. I think I win

Occam's Razor, the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible. How exactly is a belief in an intelligence behind the universe making more assumptions than a belief that particles created incredible precision, physical laws, and life purely by a series of accidents? How logical is it to believe in particles creating life?

 

[Super Universe]

What you point to as evidence, and this is a common misconception by theists, is what everyone experiences no matter what they believe. We all experience this world and universe. We all experience "good" and "bad" things, etc. The difference is that you think it's evidence of something else. It's not. Just because a guy doesn't have a wife doesn't mean he's gay. It simply means he doesn't have a wife. Just because the world is here doesn't mean some intelligent force made i this way. There are plenty of other equally and more logical explanations. You see your life as evidence of God because you're conditioned to do so. A Muslim sees his life as evidence of Allah because he's conditioned to do so. Both of you start with a preconceived idea, and make everything in your life fit that idea. I, however, start without that idea, and make my ideas fit my experiences.

EDIT: Sorry, this was in response to the OP and comments directly thereafter. I had no idea how old this thread was.

I was conditioned. The few years I spent in church conditioned me to hate everything about them and what they represent. I saw them as controlling and narrow minded. Then I had an amazing experience, something impossible happened. It was a perfect event for me, not for anyone else, and my eyes were opened.

We're an extremely selfish lot, so much that we prefer to upgrade our SUV instead of sacrificing and giving whatever we can to help others eat and have clean fresh water.

All the while the evidence for God surrounds you, the universe, the incredible and amazing planet earth, and life. A single flower is absolute evidence of God but of course you don't see it that way because you think that if God existed He would stop all the bad things and help you become rich.

But no bad thing has ever happened to you. What can happen to you that you cannot recover from? Lost your legs? So, they were just legs, you can still think and imagine. Death? It is not the end, it is just another step along the path.

 

[Super Universe]

Agreed.

I have absolutely no reason not to believe what I believe. I ditched religion, and started over... I took everything in to explain life, the universe, and everything, and the conclusion as to what the purpose is......

42.

Just kidding... The purpose doesn't exist. (in my opinion)

The purpose is doing what you want, whatever that is. You don't have to go to church. You don't have to believe. It's not a test. Live your life as you see fit and just maybe you will learn a lesson or two and become mature enough to move on after this life.

 

[Super Universe]

just wondering to the religious peeps who says god exist, what proof do you have that god still exists?

The same amount that you have that says He doesn't exist.

 

[Super Universe]

I think it is more than this though as well, I believe it has a strong element for the individual, rather than just a tool of mass society. It is tool in which people can express their fears and hopes, it defers blame. Religion became a device in which to understand a world that we could not explain or harness, and I believe this is still the case for many today. It appeals to the vain side of our nature (sorry, Christianity does more so than other religions), as we dont want to believe that we 'mean nothing in the grand scheme of things'.

Religion does not represent God there bud. God wants nothing to do with it.

Have you ever noticed that each and every single one of the ancient prophets was someone who was NOT a leading member of a religion?

Abraham wasn't. Moses wasn't. Christ was not and did not choose to become a Rabbi, although he was called "Rabbi" which was like calling someone a teacher back then. Mohammad was not. Buddha was not a priest. Joseph Smith was not a leading member of any religion.

Hmm, I wonder why?

 

[3.14]

so they also have a universum where god hasn't shown his face in the last 1000 years ?