Do You Know Why You Don't Believe?

[Magic Man]

I was conditioned. The few years I spent in church conditioned me to hate everything about them and what they represent. I saw them as controlling and narrow minded. Then I had an amazing experience, something impossible happened. It was a perfect event for me, not for anyone else, and my eyes were opened.

We're an extremely selfish lot, so much that we prefer to upgrade our SUV instead of sacrificing and giving whatever we can to help others eat and have clean fresh water.

All the while the evidence for God surrounds you, the universe, the incredible and amazing planet earth, and life. A single flower is absolute evidence of God but of course you don't see it that way because you think that if God existed He would stop all the bad things and help you become rich.

But no bad thing has ever happened to you. What can happen to you that you cannot recover from? Lost your legs? So, they were just legs, you can still think and imagine. Death? It is not the end, it is just another step along the path.

OK, so you're falling into the other trap. You think that I want everything to be perfect, and that I'm angry that it's not so I don't believe in God. There might be some people like that, but there are many, many more who aren't, such as me and the other atheists on here. I do think that if a being like the Christian omnibenevolent God existed, the world would not be what it is, but not because I want everything to be perfect, only because it would make sense, and it doesn't make sense for the world to exist as it does if that concept of God is true.

My post was in response to the OP, and the argument that all you have to do is open your mind because the evidence of God is everything you see. It is only evidence of God if that's how you see it. The only convincing argument to me is one that shows you something without requiring a pre-existing belief. I shouldn't have to believe in something before having evidence of it, I should believe in something after seeing the evidence.

 

[+Xausted]

Originally Posted by +Xausted
I think it is more than this though as well, I believe it has a strong element for the individual, rather than just a tool of mass society. It is tool in which people can express their fears and hopes, it defers blame. Religion became a device in which to understand a world that we could not explain or harness, and I believe this is still the case for many today. It appeals to the vain side of our nature (sorry, Christianity does more so than other religions), as we dont want to believe that we 'mean nothing in the grand scheme of things'.

Religion does not represent God there bud. God wants nothing to do with it.
At what point in the above statement did I say it did. Take my post in the context that it was written please.
Have you ever noticed that each and every single one of the ancient prophets was someone who was NOT a leading member of a religion?

Abraham wasn't. Moses wasn't. Christ was not and did not choose to become a Rabbi, although he was called "Rabbi" which was like calling someone a teacher back then. Mohammad was not. Buddha was not a priest. Joseph Smith was not a leading member of any religion.

Hmm, I wonder why?
...Er, I know this, and I understand the reasons that religions, as a mass grew up. The point I was making was that religion isnt just about the mass organisation. That reduces it to something that is removed from the individual, and that defeats the point of religion for many people. What I was saying was there is a LARGER picture than that. You have to see religion in the entire context. Religions were not always the mass movements they are today, e.g think of Pagen beliefs, prior to Christianity in England. They were more about explaining the world in which they lived in, than some charasmatic egocentric leader.
Do you understand me now?

 

[Super Universe]

so they also have a universum where god hasn't shown his face in the last 1000 years ?

God never came here. That would violate the entire purpose of the universe and the earth to exist.

Study tribal man a bit and you will find out that anything unknown is explained as an act of "spirits". Modern religion evolved from these ancient belief's. When men began writing new ideas down on paper they could not completely abandon the old ways so they mixed the old ways in with the new ideas.

 

[Super Universe]

OK, so you're falling into the other trap. You think that I want everything to be perfect, and that I'm angry that it's not so I don't believe in God. There might be some people like that, but there are many, many more who aren't, such as me and the other atheists on here. I do think that if a being like the Christian omnibenevolent God existed, the world would not be what it is, but not because I want everything to be perfect, only because it would make sense, and it doesn't make sense for the world to exist as it does if that concept of God is true.

My post was in response to the OP, and the argument that all you have to do is open your mind because the evidence of God is everything you see. It is only evidence of God if that's how you see it. The only convincing argument to me is one that shows you something without requiring a pre-existing belief. I shouldn't have to believe in something before having evidence of it, I should believe in something after seeing the evidence.

Why does it make more sense to you that God would make things perfect for us on the earth? Then there would be no need for heaven. The universe is not about you. It never was. It never will be.

Forget the Christian idea of God and think for yourself. What reason would God create a universe for life and humanity to exist and then step back and not interefere?

Opening your mind is not enough, you still have to see. Does one beautiful flower trump all the bad things? In your view it doesn't. In my view is does by an infinite amount.

The evidence is all around you. If you don't believe in God then you are choosing to believe that particles formed themselves and formed physical laws and formed time and life. The atom is your god.

 

[Magic Man]

Why does it make more sense to you that God would make things perfect for us on the earth? Then there would be no need for heaven. The universe is not about you. It never was. It never will be.

Forget the Christian idea of God and think for yourself. What reason would God create a universe for life and humanity to exist and then step back and not interefere?

Opening your mind is not enough, you still have to see. Does one beautiful flower trump all the bad things? In your view it doesn't. In my view is does by an infinite amount.

The evidence is all around you. If you don't believe in God then you are choosing to believe that particles formed themselves and formed physical laws and formed time and life. The atom is your god.

It makes more sense that an omnibenevolent, omnipotent God, which is what the Christian God is, would not create a world like this because he would not be able to bear our living like this.

I have considered many other "God" concepts, and they all seem to come from the same place to me.

Oops, you fell into yet another trap at the end. I don't need a God. Just because I believe in something doesn't make it my God. The word "God" is used to describe certain particular ideas. You can make it fit any concept you want, but then it loses its meaning. You're more than welcome to call the atom my God, but it would be no more appropriate or accurate than calling the atom your God.

 

[Super Universe]

'we mean nothing in the grand scheme of things'.[/I]

One aspect of working your way to the top of the universe is that you come to realize this.

Then, when you do make it to heaven you learn that you are the most important thing of all. You are the reason the universe exists.

 

[Super Universe]

It makes more sense that an omnibenevolent, omnipotent God, which is what the Christian God is, would not create a world like this because he would not be able to bear our living like this.

I have considered many other "God" concepts, and they all seem to come from the same place to me.

Oops, you fell into yet another trap at the end. I don't need a God. Just because I believe in something doesn't make it my God. The word "God" is used to describe certain particular ideas. You can make it fit any concept you want, but then it loses its meaning. You're more than welcome to call the atom my God, but it would be no more appropriate or accurate than calling the atom your God.

If it was about us then that would be true. Once again, it's just not about what you want.

Why do parents choose to have children knowing that at some point the child will likely fall down and skin their knee? What kind of sick people would do something like that?

I fell into a trap huh? Oooh, I'm so scared of your little traps, like a child who stacks toys in front of his bedroom door.

 

[Magic Man]

Then, when you do make it to heaven you learn that you are the most important thing of all. You are the reason the universe exists.

We're an extremely selfish lot, so much that we prefer to upgrade our SUV instead of sacrificing and giving whatever we can to help others eat and have clean fresh water.

The universe is not about you. It never was. It never will be.

Can you explain to me how the first quote fits in with the other two quotes?

 

[Magic Man]

If it was about us then that would be true. Once again, it's just not about what you want.

Why do parents choose to have children knowing that at some point the child will likely fall down and skin their knee? What kind of sick people would do something like that?

We don't have a choice. All we can do is bring children into the pre-existing world. If I was omnipotent, though, I'd change the world to make it better for my kids before having kids. The Christian God has that power, but doesn't do that.

I fell into a trap huh? Oooh, I'm so scared of your little traps, like a child who stacks toys in front of his bedroom door.

It's not my trap. It's a trap that many theists fall into. It's good to see you'd rather respond to that than respond to the rest of the quote, though. I guess that's the best I can hope for.

 

[+Xausted]

One aspect of working your way to the top of the universe is that you come to realize this.

Then, when you do make it to heaven you learn that you are the most important thing of all. You are the reason the universe exists.

Will you please stop butchering my posts. You keep taking them out of context and someone may get the impression that is what I was saying, when infact it was the opposite. It is vain to believe that there is a higher purpose in which we will 'rightfully' gain a place.
We are born. We live. We die.Get used to it

 

[Wandered Off]

Now the key question, where would you rate your own ego as a reason and do you realize it's the main reason?

I'm not sure we have as much control over our beliefs as you imply. Could you, for example, change your belief so that you really believe Isis is the chief deity? I doubt you are capable, and that's a likely reason others can't accept your version of deity. Ego may well have nothing to do with it.

 

[Super Universe]

Can you explain to me how the first quote fits in with the other two quotes?

I could, but then, what's the point?

 

[Super Universe]

[/size]

We don't have a choice. All we can do is bring children into the pre-existing world. If I was omnipotent, though, I'd change the world to make it better for my kids before having kids. The Christian God has that power, but doesn't do that.



It's not my trap. It's a trap that many theists fall into. It's good to see you'd rather respond to that than respond to the rest of the quote, though. I guess that's the best I can hope for.

Hmm, parents don't have a choice to be parents? Not true at all.

If you were omnipotent you'd change the world to make it better? Hmm, have you ever played a game where everyone won? Have you ever played a video game that your character died in? I guess you think this earth existence is somehow different, or more important. It's not.

 

[Super Universe]

Will you please stop butchering my posts. You keep taking them out of context and someone may get the impression that is what I was saying, when infact it was the opposite. It is vain to believe that there is a higher purpose in which we will 'rightfully' gain a place.
We are born. We live. We die.Get used to it

I'm sorry you don't like how I respond to your posts. Unfortunately, there isn't anything you can do about it. If I'm misunderstanding you, maybe it's you?

It's vain to believe in a higher purpose? Well, you can believe that if you want but you certainly don't have any supporting evidence for it.

We're born, then die. Uh, yep. Then we're born again, then die again, and on, and on, and on, until one day we finally become wise enough to make it to the next level. But the next level isn't heaven. Think of the earth as kindergarden, the next level is 1st grade. Heaven is earning your Masters Degree in Universology.

 

[Super Universe]

I'm not sure we have as much control over our beliefs as you imply. Could you, for example, change your belief so that you really believe Isis is the chief deity? I doubt you are capable, and that's a likely reason others can't accept your version of deity. Ego may well have nothing to do with it.

Could I change my belief so that I believe that Isis is the chief deity? I could. It would require a powerful vision or some other moving event.

I know absolutely that God exists. That's it. Everything else I believe to some degree. It's a work in progress.

Now, as far as Isis being God, you have to realize that many names have been given to the Supreme Being over the ages. This does not change God one bit. Our understanding of Him is evolving and will continue to evolve for thousands of years.

In the future, they might refer to God as "Omm" because this sound represents the beginning of creation. Still, the name change does not mean that our idea of the creator is incorrect. It's just incomplete.

Ego has nothing to do with believing in God? Well, if it does not apply to you then answer the OP. Why don't you believe?

 

[s2a]

How nice...

SuperUniverse revisits this thread in cherry-picking reply...perhaps in hope that I might not notice an utter lack of response to multi-part (instigated and invited) specific replies to inquiries I was challenged to answer...

My unbeliever's insights into residing humanistic capacities of evasion and hopeful escape remain (as expected) fully realized by accomplished "artful dodgers" like SuperUniverse.

If SuperUniverse might wish to insist for a reference to pertinent and relevant inquiries both presented, and answered (on my part)...I'll be pleased enough to oblige...and expectantly await further deflections and selective replies...

You are again invited to revisit...posts number 823-824.

I'm still here...and I have yet to expend my involved capacities of skepticism, criticism, or doubt...especially within the context of your proffered trivialities.

Treat with me...or just run away...

 

[Super Universe]

How nice...

SuperUniverse revisits this thread in cherry-picking reply...perhaps in hope that I might not notice an utter lack of response to multi-part (instigated and invited) specific replies to inquiries I was challenged to answer...

My unbeliever's insights into residing humanistic capacities of evasion and hopeful escape remain (as expected) fully realized by accomplished "artful dodgers" like SuperUniverse.

If SuperUniverse might wish to insist for a reference to pertinent and relevant inquiries both presented, and answered (on my part)...I'll be pleased enough to oblige...and expectantly await further deflections and selective replies...

You are again invited to revisit...posts number 823-824.

I'm still here...and I have yet to expend my involved capacities of skepticism, criticism, or doubt...especially within the context of your proffered trivialities.

Treat with me...or just run away...

How trivial...

Ever the actor, without award, s2a turns a comedy into a drama and acts out a vain appeal to back track an already discussed and long ago buried era of thought. He avoids reading from the script and stumbles about in his attempt to create a play, his play, but he is not that original or intriguing to the playmaster, just a child who fingerpaints on your car windshield.

You're not the playmaster, I am, and you still haven't answered the original question. Do you know why you don't believe?

 

[Halcyon]

I know why I don't believe, and it took many years for me to come to these conclusions so I know they're well founded... for me anyway.

 

[Magic Man]

I could, but then, what's the point?

You're right. That would require you to make sense. I'm sorry, I shouldn't ask that of you.

 

[Magic Man]

Hmm, parents don't have a choice to be parents? Not true at all.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had to spell it out for you. Parents don't have a choice in the world into which they bring their kids. They can choose not to be parents, but if they want to be parents, they have to bring kids into this world that we have.

If you were omnipotent you'd change the world to make it better? Hmm, have you ever played a game where everyone won? Have you ever played a video game that your character died in? I guess you think this earth existence is somehow different, or more important. It's not.

I guess it's hard for you to think outside the box, huh? So, this earth's existence is no more important than a game's existence? You're only thinking of how things are. If I was an omnipotent God, I could make it so that people could all play a game and everyone would win. I could make it so that people didn't have to die, or make death different and make it just a change. I could do anything, and I wouldn't be constricted by the way things work in the world we know, because the world we know would not exist. The point is you're only thinking of things through the way they already work, and I'm talking about changing the basic way they work so that they don't even resemble what we already know.