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Do You Know Why You Don't Believe?

Super Universe

Defender of God
Again, you're confusing yourself. I don't want anything to stop humans from doing bad things. I'm fine with the universe as it is. You're also confusing the signs. When you stop thinking of the universe as a creation, you'll be able to see the other side. Think of it more like a stone chair than a house. A stone chair can work just as well as a cloth one. A stone chair can also be created by unintelligent forces of nature. The universe is like that stone chair, and can be created by unintelligent forces.

When I stop thinking of the universe as a creation? Wasting your time there. It's not going to happen. You don't have that kind of power.

The universe is like a stone chair, huh? But the universe did not create a cloth chair, that took intelligent beings.

The atom alone is so precisely designed that if there was .0000001 difference it would not stay together and there would be nothing. That is proof.


 

Super Universe

Defender of God
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Because religion leaves me with more questions than answers. I'd like to believe 100% but I find there are too many problems with it.



That's a very presumptuous question. My ego doesn't rate high on my reasons for not fully believing. My problem is that I'm supposed to believe in illogical tales from thousands of years ago for which there is no evidence. I'd hardly call that a problem with my ego.


Religion? Religions represent their own interests. They don't represent God.

Have you ever noticed that each and every single prophet was NOT a leading member of the main religion of the time?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
I see where you are trying to go with this but wouldn't it be fair to say that we have evidence on who built the house? All of the components of the house can be traced back to their source.




Correct....but there, again, is sufficient evidence to show who delivered it. If I find fault in the food I can go to the source. There is no evidence to show the existence of a source/creator.




Yes...."LEVI", "GAP", "CALVIN KLEIN".......If these companies are producing inferior product I need look no further than the source.



History has shown that there are a lot of things we never had the answers for but we discovered those answers. Now do we know the answer to everything....? NOPE.....Are we still discovering answers to questions we had or have?....YEP.... Does this mean...because we can't answer them there must be a higher power involved?....NOPE....

The kicker, to me, is that we argue and debate over the existence of said higher power but none of us, at this point in time, can prove nor disprove the existence of it.

If we have answered your question as to why we don't believe then shouldn't that be sufficient or are you simply fishing...trying to find a flaw in the logic we use to reach this conclusion?

A simple answer we can give you is..."I don't believe in gods because their is no reason to."....."A god is not a necessity."




We'd all like to "just get along" with each other but such is not the nature of man.

Sure we can trace the source of a house but what if you could not? Lets suppose you came upon an old abandoned log cabin in the woods, would you just assume the woods built it?

You are correct, no one can prove God's existence. But what I have found is that your view sways you towards belief or disbelief. If you are a person who is unhappy with your life situation you see things in a negative view. You could also be a person with low self esteem who wants more than anything for God to exist yet really, deep down, not believe.

That's what this thread is really about. What your view is, not proving God or disproving God. It's not about changing anyone's mind, honestly, I don't even care, but I do want to know if you know why you believe in this or that.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
When I stop thinking of the universe as a creation? Wasting your time there. It's not going to happen. You don't have that kind of power.

I know it's not going to happen, but, for some reason, I still have hope.

The universe is like a stone chair, huh? But the universe did not create a cloth chair, that took intelligent beings.

Sure, and those intelligent beings came from the "stone chair".

The atom alone is so precisely designed that if there was .0000001 difference it would not stay together and there would be nothing. That is proof.

No, that is what you take to be evidence. Just because something is very precise doesn't mean something created it with a purpose. That's like saying that the one person who wins the lottery picking numbers that had to be exactly correct without a .000000001 difference, picked those exact numbers knowing they would win with them. There is a thing called chance, and randomness. Sometimes things just happen. People have a very, very tiny chance of dying from just falling down a couple of stairs, but it happens. That doesn't prove anything.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
I know it's not going to happen, but, for some reason, I still have hope.



Sure, and those intelligent beings came from the "stone chair".



No, that is what you take to be evidence. Just because something is very precise doesn't mean something created it with a purpose. That's like saying that the one person who wins the lottery picking numbers that had to be exactly correct without a .000000001 difference, picked those exact numbers knowing they would win with them. There is a thing called chance, and randomness. Sometimes things just happen. People have a very, very tiny chance of dying from just falling down a couple of stairs, but it happens. That doesn't prove anything.


I'm not some low self esteem Jesus Freak who hopes that there is "something" after this just because I'm afraid of death. I grew up barely exposed to religion at all but even that was enough for me to hate everything it represents. Then, my eyes were opened and I realized that we all view the same thing differently because of our mindset. We allow our personalities and emotions to control us.

There is a husband and wife I know who argued furiously one morning because he bought the wrong toothpaste. But the argument wasn't about toothpaste, was it?

Figure yourself out. Phsychoanalyze yourself. Ask yourself each day, "Am I in a good mood or bad mood?" Then deduce why. If you are in a bad mood just tell yourself that you will be angry later because it's just not worth it.

Intelligent beings came from stone? How so? Why isn't this stone doing it now?

Chance and randomness never formed a cloth chair. Lava never makes a Samurai Sword. The wind never forms dust particles into a watch. Hmm, I wonder why? You'd think they would be all over the place.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I'm not some low self esteem Jesus Freak who hopes that there is "something" after this just because I'm afraid of death. I grew up barely exposed to religion at all but even that was enough for me to hate everything it represents. Then, my eyes were opened and I realized that we all view the same thing differently because of our mindset. We allow our personalities and emotions to control us.

There is a husband and wife I know who argued furiously one morning because he bought the wrong toothpaste. But the argument wasn't about toothpaste, was it?

Figure yourself out. Phsychoanalyze yourself. Ask yourself each day, "Am I in a good mood or bad mood?" Then deduce why. If you are in a bad mood just tell yourself that you will be angry later because it's just not worth it.


I'm not sure how this is relevant. Yes, we're all trying to expalin things. What we're differing on here is the way each of us explains it and why.

Intelligent beings came from stone? How so? Why isn't this stone doing it now?

It was a metaphor. The universe is the "stone chair", created by unintelligent forces.

Chance and randomness never formed a cloth chair. Lava never makes a Samurai Sword. The wind never forms dust particles into a watch. Hmm, I wonder why? You'd think they would be all over the place.

Why would they be all over the place? They are man-made creations. The unintelligent forces created us over time, and now we have created those things. Why is that so hard to understand?
 

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
Could I change my belief so that I believe that Isis is the chief deity? I could. It would require a powerful vision or some other moving event.
. . .

Ego has nothing to do with believing in God? Well, if it does not apply to you then answer the OP. Why don't you believe?
Maybe I haven't had a powerful vision or some other moving event.

Also, you could not change your beliefs without some external event. Unless your ego has an external component, that means the ego cannot alone be responsible for a belief or lack.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Lets suppose you came upon an old abandoned log cabin in the woods, would you just assume the woods built it?

Nope.....But just because you don't know how it came to be does not mean some unseen sky daddy built it. A long time ago man thought God or the gods held the earth in place and some, even with their supposed intellect and knowledge of their god and the world as they knew it, thought the world to be flat. Man, on his own, discovered none of this was true.
If you are a person who is unhappy with your life situation you see things in a negative view.

Neither of these describe me...I'm really a happy person....:)

You could also be a person with low self esteem who wants more than anything for God to exist yet really, deep down, not believe.

Naw...not me.....I have lots of self esteem. I love who I am. Again, I don't believe in gods because there is no reason to. You may have your reasons and to you they are justifiable....but to me there is no reason to believe in gods...
I don't even care, but I do want to know if you know why you believe in this or that.

For me I see no reason to believe.....Why?....because there is no reason to believe.....gods aren't a necessity....
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
Some friends and I recently engaged in a long conversation regarding what kind of reasons would be sufficient for any of us, personally, to believe God does or does not exist. We began with the question of whether or not people ever have reasons for believing in something, whether that something be the existence of God or the existence of the hand with which I'm typing this response. We concluded that people believe for a variety of reasons, some emotional, some experiential, some rational, etc. We also determined that only a small category of reasons constitute evidence, as in the kind of evidence that would be acceptable in a court of law or a laboratory study. We argued that no evidence could be found for the existence of God, and furthermore, although certain kinds of reasons are sufficient for others to believe in God, with the exception of one, these same reasons were not sufficient to us, personally.

None of us considered the great works of world religions to constitute a reason for us to believe in the existence of God. Our grounds for such a conclusion are, roughly, as follows. Imagine, as some people have, that every story told in a great religious text is historically true. In other words, Jesus, Rama, Buddha, Muhammad, or some other figure spent time upon this earth and carried out the deeds the great works claim they carried out. Does this mean God exists? We concluded that no, a historical account of an individual who lived, who performed miracles and who made claims regarding the existence of God no more constitutes evidence for the existence of God than, say, an individual alive today who performs amazing feats and claims that God exists. Why? There is nothing inherent in a so-called "miracle" that necessitates the existence of God, anymore than there is anything inherent in a highly-charismatic religious leader that necessitates the existence of God. Although we would certainly have an interesting question on our hands---how does this person perform said miracles?---our hypotheses may point in many directions: magic, not yet understood science, God, demons, aliens, delusion, trickery, etc. Thus, we could not believe in the existence of God based on the words and deeds of historical figures in the great religious works of humanity.

We also did not consider the argument from design---in any of its guises---to constitute a reason for us to believe in the existence of God. Our understanding of the laws of physics, of early galaxy formation, of evolution, and of other natural laws and processes strongly suggest to us that these alone are sufficient to account for the amazing and elegant complexity of the universe. Although we recognize that there are those who argue that these natural laws and processes must surely have themselves been created, we place them in roughly the same category, in terms of origins, as God. In other words, just as religious individuals argue that the complexity and elegance of the universe owes its existence to a God whose origins cannot be accounted for, so we argue that this same complexity and elegance of the universe owes its existence to natural laws and processes, the origins of which cannot (yet) be accounted for. If God---despite the amazing elegance and complexity of such an entity---need not be explained as a creation of some preexisting "Mover", neither do the natural laws and processes need to be explained as creations of God. We find this explanation especially superior to the argument that "God did it" because natural laws and processes are observable and demonstrable, whereas God or gods are not observable or demonstrable. It makes more sense, then, for us to argue that these natural laws and processes are responsible for "the way things are" than God. Thus, we could not believe in the existence of God based on any sort of argument from design.

Three of the four of us agreed that we could believe in the existence of God or gods on the basis of a compelling experience of God---a hierophany or theophany, depending on what kind of "God" we're looking at. Those of us who agreed that such an experience of contact or communion with God would be sufficient evidence for us to believe in God, provided that experience was powerful and compelling to us personally. We agreed, furthermore, than should one among us have a vision or other experience of God, their experience would not constitute a reason for the rest of us to believe; in other words, such an experience would be a personal reason for believing, but would not be compelling to others. Just as we cannot believe in God on the grounds of the words and deeds of men or women in religious texts, so too can we not believe in God on the basis of our friends' personal convictions and experiences. We would have to have those experiences ourselves in order to believe. The one friend who disagreed with this stance argued, furthermore, that no experience of God he could possibly have would be compelling to him; he would always, he argued, explain such an experience away as a dream, delusion, hallucination, wishful thinking, or other, ontologically different experience than an experience of God. Although the rest of us argued that he could not make a claim like that without first having had such an experience, he could not be persuaded.

Thus, the only reason any of us would believe in God was if we had a compelling personal experience of some kind wherein we strongly felt we had encountered God.
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
Which came first...
The belief...
or the reason...?
Always the reason. Even if that reason is only "I'm five years old, my mommy is always right, and my mommy told me God exists". The idea has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere generally lends itself to a reason.
 

Tau

Well-Known Member
I get you Super Universe.

I know what you are trying to say.

I agree that the universe is very peculiar and full of purpose.

I think you are a seeker and I also think you are doing fine.

Patience my friend.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Super Universe said:
Hehe, what real debate? If a ten year old child wants to pick a fight with a grown man, what should the grown man do?

Jerry Falwell's play book, Rule #21: When in danger, trivialize and insult your opponent.
 
I neither believe or disbelieve in God. I simply don't know. I like the idea of there being a God but can't bring myself to pretend that there is when I really don't know. The truth is, I am really intolerant of people of deep faith. I just don't like the fact that people think they have the answers. I doubt that we will ever understand the whole truth about the existence of the universe. There are some things we just aren't supposed to know.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Well the thing is you see I havent read all 89 plus pages and don't intend to so I couldn't possibly comment on content, what I can say is however is that you need honey to catch bees...if you get my meaning.
Actually Tau, you should go back and read the thread from the start. It is quite humorous.

I am not particularly nice you see, i tend to think that this world might be a better place if humanity was wiped from it, it might be for the best, but I shall endeavor to do what I can to prevent it, what the hell it might turn out ok, for the greater good.
Well, there is a real ray of sunshine, lol. Given that you say "you think this world might be a better place if humanity was wiped from it" it is rather likely that your ability to act to prevent it will be fairly half-hearted.

I get you Super Universe.

I know what you are trying to say.

I agree that the universe is very peculiar and full of purpose.

I think you are a seeker and I also think you are doing fine.

Patience my friend.
Ok, as you understand S_U, perhaps you could enlighten us as to what he is saying.
BTW: I'm not entirely sure that S_U would consider himself to be a mere seeker. He is already a "wingmaker" after all.

To S_U: Greetings o' fiesty one. Long time, no babble. I am curious if you would be inclined to talk to "TruthAboutGod" in his/her/its thread Ask your questions about God here. I have a feeling that a discussion between the two of you would be a remarkable thing to behold. Go on... it could be fun.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Well if you'd slow down you would notice that the quote was about s2a, not you.

And I'm probably twice your age there bud.

Dude.

I'm fifty years old. Just 50. Only 50. Yet...50. So what?

Your continued evasion stands--as uncomfortably recorded--within this forum...all ad hominem allusions and insinuations not withstanding.

Let's recall for your own benefit that you instigated this thread, and proposed the OP question.

Again, for the third time, I tell you that your (prepositionally) challenging inquiry HAS been ANSWERED...and you have both deflected and ignored that consummately provided answer henceforth...most inelegantly.

Will you not answer, or can you not?

Inquiring minds and lurkers would like to know...

Whither shall we look to the validations of your proffered insights and wisdom?

In your accumulated years?

In your unique insights?

In your tactical implementations of evasion and escape?

Within some archaic texts of mixed metaphors and insistent claims of informed "knowledge?

What feeds your ego of certainty and insistence? What?

So far, the substance of you position seems to be rooted within the self-serving assertion that you "know better" than the rest of us wayward fools and children.

Perhaps that is so...perhaps not.

As Missourians are famously noted to say..."Don't tell me, show me."

C'mon, Mister "Super Universe"...enlighten us all with your sage wisdoms and enlightened truths begat of the years of experience and deliverance, available to only but the most aged and tested of we mortal humans...like you.

Be the prophet of unique revelation you were born to sell to the masses of the great unwashed, young and old alike.

Or, in the meantime, perhaps you might muster the temerity and courage to succinctly answer the lesser "trivialties" of those most discomfiting challenges upon the claims you espouse as truth, especially amongst us most severely unenlightened mortals?

I promise that I won't characterize you as "too old" to appreciate or understand five decades of life experience as exemplar for myself. I promise that I will only fairly criticize the value/merit of the arguments you present as being either supportive, or as validation of, the "truths" you care to share as being undeniable and universal in application and interpretation.
 

Tau

Well-Known Member
Well, there is a real ray of sunshine, lol. Given that you say "you think this world might be a better place if humanity was wiped from it" it is rather likely that your ability to act to prevent it will be fairly half-hearted.

Ok, as you understand S_U, perhaps you could enlighten us as to what he is saying.
BTW: I'm not entirely sure that S_U would consider himself to be a mere seeker. He is already a "wingmaker" after all.

Its my ideology YmirGF it forces me to try to do something anyway despite my reservations, its like Granny Weatherwax says 'Lets do some good'.

I think SU is, at least, basically saying that the whole point of the universe is to give life forms something to stand on, as for God, well I don't really know if I agree with a God or not, my concept of God might be radically different from SU's, but I agree with the premise outlined in the beginning of this paragraph.

I have already criticised SU's rather lofty attitude, but strength of conviction can easily turn to pride so it's normal I suppose, there are a number of people here who seem to fancy themselves as a messiah of some kind, but then we all are I guess, we all have our perception's message to bring.
Just hopefully a sense of proportion is retained....hehehe

Granny Weatherwax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia see her personality profile, thats more or less me in many ways.

Especially here...It has been said that Granny Weatherwax bears some similarity to Sam Vimes. Both are effectively 'good' characters who exert a rigid control over the darkness inside themselves, which they secretly fear.

Because of my build, my big canines (to be filed down soon as they cause problems) and shaven well punched in head my friends sing The Automatic's song Monster when I come down the street sometimes lol..hope that reveals...
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Always the reason. Even if that reason is only "I'm five years old, my mommy is always right, and my mommy told me God exists". The idea has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere generally lends itself to a reason.

I doubt an agnostic would accept "what mommy says" as a good reason for belief.

I tend to think that belief came first for me, then reason. My belief was in the God of the Bible and an agnostic will tell you that even that is not a good reason to believe.
The Bible told me I could pray to God and He would answer. I did pray and God did answer, so the belief was proved to be reasonable by experience. So where did my belief come from? My belief came from faith in the Bible. I can't really explain that other than to say when I read the Bible, I read it as truth. I can't say that anyone directed me into that view so it must have been a natural inclination, perhaps from a previous life.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Which came first...
The belief...
or the reason...?

For me belief came first. I believed that the Bible spoke the truth about God and then my experience with God vindicated the words in the Bible.

I can't explain why the Bible was truth to me instead of fiction. The only thing that makes sense to me is that there is something inside of me that recognizes truth. That might very well be something learned over several lifetimes but not having memory of that makes it difficult to say for sure.

I have seen this operate again when I was studying with the Jehovah's Witnesses. They would say something that seemed to make sense but later there would be a gnawing feeling inside that what they said wasn't true. Then I would search my Bible and find out what they said wasn't true (from a Biblical standpoint).
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
To S_U: Greetings o' fiesty one. Long time, no babble. I am curious if you would be inclined to talk to "TruthAboutGod" in his/her/its thread Ask your questions about God here. I have a feeling that a discussion between the two of you would be a remarkable thing to behold. Go on... it could be fun.

I looked in there a bit. He/she is taking their own approach toward's explaining their idea and understanding of God. None of us are right, none are wrong, we're just trying to relay our own view of the universe.
 
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