Do you not ask yourself "what if I am wrong?"

[Lady B]

We all have hope, but hope different things. So, you do not ask yourself "What if I am wrong and I will go to hell because of not believing in Quetzalcoatl?"

The same way you are not worried about Quetzalcoatl and find it silly to be worried of such, many atheists are just not worried of Hell, because they find it equally silly than Quetzalcoatl.

you dont fear all the gods you do not believe in do you? If you do not, then it should be easy to understand how many of them don't fear the christian god .

Simply put, you are gambling too. You seem to be pretending the only two options for the gamble are atheism and Christianity, but you are gambling against a lot of other religions that will also lead yo to awful afterlives if you did not follow those.

Actually I am not giving him ultimatums at all, I can understand Islam more than atheism. I am not pushing my God to him, I am asking him how he can not have any God at all? OK I want to give an a life example here , please bear with me.

When I was 9 years old I had a fight with my mother, she said to me words I cannot forget, " OK b how about you be the mom and I will be the child. You make all the rules now OK?"

In the first 5 minutes I was just amazed at my freedoms, ready to change the world because I knew more then she did anyways right?

After 10 minutes I see my mom outside in the street riding my bike ! I go out and ask her what are you doing? She replied " well I am wondering what is for dinner"
yikes! Dinner? I soon became so scared and began to cry, the boundary's were lifted yet so was my security. I felt so alone worried for my own mistakes and failures,then consequences,when prior to this 10 minutes I never cared. For me this is a picture of a life without God.

 

[Me Myself]

Actually I am not giving him ultimatums at all, I can understand Islam more than atheism. I am not pushing my God to him, I am asking him how he can not have any God at all? OK I want to give an a life example here , please bear with me.

When I was 9 years old I had a fight with my mother, she said to me words I cannot forget, " OK b how about you be the mom and I will be the child. You make all the rules now OK?"

In the first 5 minutes I was just amazed at my freedoms, ready to change the world because I knew more then she did anyways right?

After 10 minutes I see my mom outside in the street riding my bike ! I go out and ask her what are you doing? She replied " well I am wondering what is for dinner"
yikes! Dinner? I soon became so scared and began to cry, the boundary's were lifted yet so was my security. I felt so alone worried for my own mistakes and failures,then consequences,when prior to this 10 minutes I never cared. For me this is a picture of a life without God.

And that may be right for you, but some people just answer "Well, I am going to youtube and watch a mushroom omellette tutorial so if we have the ingredients for that, thats what we are having!"

The thing is what you replied here is another thread material.

I know more than one atheist that seems to be doing just fine being his own "mommy"

That has nothing to do with the wager though.

I answered your OP which was about a wager. If you wish to make another thread about what you just mentioned, I ll happily keep posting there about that.

 

[Lady B]

And that may be right for you, but some people just answer "Well, I am going to youtube and watch a mushroom omellette tutorial so if we have the ingredients for that, thats what we are having!"

The thing is what you replied here is another thread material.

I know more than one atheist that seems to be doing just fine being his own "mommy"

That has nothing to do with the wager though.

I answered your OP which was about a wager. If you wish to make another thread about what you just mentioned, I ll happily keep posting there about that.

My op was not about a wager, I only used the wager analogy in rebuttal. what I mentioned here was clearly in line with my opening questions, life without god and the peace and/or lack there of.

 

[George-ananda]

Lady B,.....I am also a theist but I think you make one big wrong assumption. I believe the quality of this life and our after-life is determined by the quality of our hearts NOT our beliefs. So, I don't think it's really a critical question whether one is a Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Atheist, etc..

So a good hearted atheist can be better than a narrow selfish Christian.

 

[ChristineES]

I try to be positive in life, so I ask: What if I'm right?

There is always that chance.

 

[Lady B]

Lady B,.....I am also a theist but I think you make one big wrong assumption. I believe the quality of this life and our after-life is determined by the quality of our hearts NOT our beliefs. So, I don't think it's really a critical question whether one is a Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Atheist, etc..

So a good hearted atheist can be better than a narrow selfish Christian.

Do you view all Christians as narrow and selfish? May I ask you why? Because we believe in one way only? Ok this is true, But do we feel we are deserving of this way and us alone? No, no one deserves heaven, not even one of us, not me not you, not any of the aforementioned religions.

Furthermore..What defines a 'good heart' ? Morality? Conscience? Compassion? Empathy? And where do these attributes come from? And if you have 3 out of 4 is that good enough? Who sets the bar?

Forgive me any typing errors ,I am so tired now....

 

[Lady B]

I try to be positive in life, so I ask: What if I'm right?

There is always that chance.

I should have went with that one too..:bow:

 

[oldbadger]

To Lady B:- Hi! This is not aimed at you personally....
............. but many Christians just seem to do any thing they like, breaking any moral codes that they think they need to, and reckon that they will go to heaven because they 'believe in Jesus'. !!! Like some sort of theistic insurance policy! Some even believe that they can perform a ceremony every few days or weeks to entirely 'scrub out' their recent misdeeds and misthoughts. This is surely 'dark ages' stuff?

I would back any lifestyle and any belief (or lack of belief) against the chances for the vast majority of Christians that I know. During my life I have occasional had the privilege to meet with truly wonderful people and none of them would have given a moment's thought to their own salvation, rather they would place themselves into the hands of fate (or their Gods). They would say things such as 'I am content with the will of God' and get on with their next moment in time.

But.... what do you think?

 

[Alceste]

Good assumption and leads to other questions, however my question was not about what he wages but how he can be so sure of his gamble. Example, a wise man will only gamble what he can afford to lose. (not promoting gambling here) But the atheist in my understanding is prepared to lose nothing if he is found wrong in the end. How can this be? Do we not tremble when we risk it all ? Yet I find when I read these posts that there is no fear, no concern for what is the consequence of betting it all on a Godless hopeless life.

You may ask same of me, feel free, but I hang my hope on nothing less then Christ's promises and righteousness, I have hope, I have assurance, I have peace and by God I wish the same for all of us.

What exactly do you feel I am "risking"? I don't even know which God you are talking about. You forgot to say. Thor? Sarasvati? Guan Yin?

I don't know why you must insist my life is "hopeless" or lacking in peace because I don't agree with your opinion. Don't you think that's kind of condescending? Did you read my reply? Has anybody yet reported a lack of meaning and satisfaction in life? No. You're imagining that. Among other things.

My op was not about a wager, I only used the wager analogy in rebuttal. what I mentioned here was clearly in line with my opening questions, life without god and the peace and/or lack there of.

Some people find no peace in self-delusion.

 

[Me Myself]

My op was not about a wager, I only used the wager analogy in rebuttal. what I mentioned here was clearly in line with my opening questions, life without god and the peace and/or lack there of.

Well, you were asking which are the consequences of the denial of the existence of God.

you would also need to understand this denial is no stronger or different than your denial of flying unicorns granting candies to children who behave well.

So you think that the monks in Buddhist temples, who are atheists and whose brain activities show the highest amounts of peace and happiness well above the human average are not peaceful?

Besides, no one lives without God. Simply rejecting the concept doesnt need to make anyone less or more happy. If the hell God was real, I d be miserable. If death was the end, then not much is lost IMHO.

I mean, it would be the end of all suffering. You would still have this life to love and enjoy.

 

[Lady B]

To Lady B:- Hi! This is not aimed at you personally....
............. but many Christians just seem to do any thing they like, breaking any moral codes that they think they need to, and reckon that they will go to heaven because they 'believe in Jesus'. !!! Like some sort of theistic insurance policy! Some even believe that they can perform a ceremony every few days or weeks to entirely 'scrub out' their recent misdeeds and misthoughts. This is surely 'dark ages' stuff?

I would back any lifestyle and any belief (or lack of belief) against the chances for the vast majority of Christians that I know. During my life I have occasional had the privilege to meet with truly wonderful people and none of them would have given a moment's thought to their own salvation, rather they would place themselves into the hands of fate (or their Gods). They would say things such as 'I am content with the will of God' and get on with their next moment in time.

But.... what do you think?

I can agree with you that many so called Christians give us the need for apologists! If you look good you will find similar fault in any one religion, It is at it is due to the lowly state of man and our own views of God. I personally would never go so far as to say those without God can't be wonderful. I too have met and loved many with strange ( meaning unknown to myself) God's or no God at all. howeverrrrrrrr....

When I hear them say this " it is God's will" I am content with God's will..Etc.. I do not believe this is true at all. How can you be content with the will of a God you don't know? And if you don't know him don't you wonder does he know you? How would you like to go before a judge who has not read your file and be content with his ruling? A relationship is defined as two or more participants.so to give a stranger your life is not an easy task and to say" well It is his will" hmmmmmm

 

[kylixguru]

Well, you were asking which are the consequences of the denial of the existence of God.

you would also need to understand this denial is no stronger or different than your denial of flying unicorns granting candies to children who behave well.

So you think that the monks in Buddhist temples, who are atheists and whose brain activities show the highest amounts of peace and happiness well above the human average are not peaceful?

Besides, no one lives without God. Simply rejecting the concept doesnt need to make anyone less or more happy. If the hell God was real, I d be miserable. If death was the end, then not much is lost IMHO.

I mean, it would be the end of all suffering. You would still have this life to love and enjoy.

There is the individual aspect of things, but there is also the collective aspect as well. If an individual "sins" then ultimately they will pay a price for those acts. The same is true of a society. If they "progress" into ways of being that are "sinful" there shall be consequences upon the whole.

Religion, when it is properly practiced, should always be able to be distilled down to practical common sense principles, at the least, that do not require unreasonable amounts of force to stand and be seen as self-evident.

Unfortunately, people want fantasies more than they want reality, cold and hard though it may be.

 

[Me Myself]

common sense varies through times.

"doing into the other what I would like done into myself" means very different things in different ages. (I know I know, "not to say people" but I d say in the biggest stuff we more or less agree if we stay in the same age/country . Not everyone agrees, but most )

I just dont think religion is necessary for morality or for a developing sense of morality.

Empathy, compassion and understanding are what are needed to be moral.

 

[Lady B]

What exactly do you feel I am "risking"? I don't even know which God you are talking about. You forgot to say. Thor? Sarasvati? Guan Yin?

I don't know why you must insist my life is "hopeless" or lacking in peace because I don't agree with your opinion. Don't you think that's kind of condescending? Did you read my reply? Has anybody yet reported a lack of meaning and satisfaction in life? No. You're imagining that. Among other things.




I am asking, I am learning I am not condescending, forgive me if this is how u read me. I genuinely wish to learn how you feel this is all.

 

[Alceste]

I can agree with you that many so called Christians give us the need for apologists! If you look good you will find similar fault in any one religion, It is at it is due to the lowly state of man and our own views of God. I personally would never go so far as to say those without God can't be wonderful. I too have met and loved many with strange ( meaning unknown to myself) God's or no God at all. howeverrrrrrrr....

When I hear them say this " it is God's will" I am content with God's will..Etc.. I do not believe this is true at all. How can you be content with the will of a God you don't know? And if you don't know him don't you wonder does he know you? How would you like to go before a judge who has not read your file and be content with his ruling? A relationship is defined as two or more participants.so to give a stranger your life is not an easy task and to say" well It is his will" hmmmmmm

I think you misunderstood his point. He's talking about whatever God they believe in, not the one you believe in.

 

[Lady B]

I think you misunderstood his point. He's talking about whatever God they believe in, not the one you believe in.

Hmmmm I was not talking about any specific God, maybe I am tired and need to sleep, thankyou all for a respectful discussion.

 

[George-ananda]

Do you view all Christians as narrow and selfish?

I absolutely do not view all Christians as narrow and selfish. Why the heck would you say that? My statement was

"So a good hearted atheist can be better than a narrow selfish Christian."

Some atheists can be 'narrow and selfish' and some Christians can be good-hearted, broad and selfless. My point was their can be good and bad individuals adhering to both postions. I hope you understand me now. I'm not anti-Christian at all.

May I ask you why? Because we believe in one way only? Ok this is true, But do we feel we are deserving of this way and us alone? No, no one deserves heaven, not even one of us, not me not you, not any of the aforementioned religions.

From this part of your reply I take it that you are of the belief that we need belief in the reedeming power of Christ to enter heaven. That's a conservative Christian belief I personally believe is wrong.

Furthermore..What defines a 'good heart' ? Morality? Conscience? Compassion? Empathy? And where do these attributes come from? And if you have 3 out of 4 is that good enough? Who sets the bar?..

This part of your reply seems to indicate that there is a bar to pass. An all or nothing pass/fail threshold. I believe differently. I believe we are all here to grow spiritually and there is no all or nothing judgement at the end.

 

[Lady B]

From this part of your reply I take it that you are of the belief that we need belief in the reedeming power of Christ to enter heaven. That's a conservative Christian belief I personally believe is wrong.



.

And what is the view you agree with about christianity? with all due respect it is not a conservative view, It is the pillars of the faith, you can't very well take Christ out of Christian can you?

 

[George-ananda]

To Lady B:- Hi! This is not aimed at you personally....
............. but many Christians just seem to do any thing they like, breaking any moral codes that they think they need to, and reckon that they will go to heaven because they 'believe in Jesus'. !!! Like some sort of theistic insurance policy! Some even believe that they can perform a ceremony every few days or weeks to entirely 'scrub out' their recent misdeeds and misthoughts. This is surely 'dark ages' stuff?

I am not a Christian but this is a way too negative a view of Christianity. I know and read many Christians and none that I know have the silly idea they can break moral codes because they have an insurance policy. This sounds so anti-Christian that I have to defend them.

 

[InfidelRiot]

you can't very well take Christ out of Christian can you?

Yet many Christians, mostly fundamentalists, have done just that.