Do you not ask yourself "what if I am wrong?"

[Alceste]

That's a pimple? I thought that was an abscess.

Thanks for letting me know about my breath. I blame the heavy amount of alcohol, drugs, and sexual liaisons I've gotten into this morning because of my lack of direction in life without a god.

And I've been eating nothing but pizza for weeks to smother my emptiness and despair.

 

[Lady B]

It would be futile for me to explain consequences pertaining to my own religion to anyone who refutes it entirely right? What would eternally damned mean to you? What sense can it possibly make to those who simply Ignore its possibilities. For instance If I say to an atheist, believe in God or go to hell, what does hell mean for him? He can't except the bibles hell, or the Koran's hell or any other religion that speaks of hell, perhaps in his mind he created his own hell and he is fine with that.
Hell for me is being eternally separated from God, the atheist already takes this position in life, so whereas the harm? whereas the fear of it? I have seen replies stating if God would send them to hell then he is evil anyway, what logic is this? Is it unjust that a guilty man be put in prison? Are you without guilt really? As for me I am guilty, I am depraved not by nature but by my own choices, I have no one to blame and I will be judged accordingly. But for the atheist who can judge him? By what standards what laws is he found guilty or innocent? This is not about what I believe as that has no importance to anyone aside from me and my own God, this is about what you the atheist believe. I still find it hard to understand a man content without God.
Sorry If I haven't answered your questions to your liking, I am new to this forum style and It is still difficult to even quote properly.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It would be futile for me to explain consequences pertaining to my own religion to anyone who refutes it entirely right? What would eternally damned mean to you? What sense can it possibly make to those who simply Ignore its possibilities. For instance If I say to an atheist, believe in God or go to hell, what does hell mean for him? He can't except the bibles hell, or the Koran's hell or any other religion that speaks of hell, perhaps in his mind he created his own hell and he is fine with that.
Hell for me is being eternally separated from God, the atheist already takes this position in life, so whereas the harm? whereas the fear of it? I have seen replies stating if God would send them to hell then he is evil anyway, what logic is this? Is it unjust that a guilty man be put in prison? Are you without guilt really? As for me I am guilty, I am depraved not by nature but by my own choices, I have no one to blame and I will be judged accordingly. But for the atheist who can judge him? By what standards what laws is he found guilty or innocent? This is not about what I believe as that has no importance to anyone aside from me and my own God, this is about what you the atheist believe. I still find it hard to understand a man content without God.
Sorry If I haven't answered your questions to your liking, I am new to this forum style and It is still difficult to even quote properly.

The reason IMO why you're having such a difficult time imagining the perspective of an atheist is because you're still viewing everything through the lens of a theist, and a specific exclusive lens at that. An atheist accepts the possibility of your god no more than you accept the possibility of pink unicorns or leprechauns existing.

If you can imagine what life is like without pink unicorns or leprechauns, then you can imagine what life is like for an atheist without any deities at all.

 

[Lady B]

Perhaps I got lost in the shuffle. It happens. Here is a reminder of what I asked so no digging is necessary:

Originally Posted by Draka
How would you know that? What if you are wrong about those consequences? Perhaps it's not so black and white as you seem to think it is. You seem to leave out the possibility that there may indeed be something afterward, something beyond death, it just might not be what you think it is. What then? What if you die and it isn't blackness, it isn't nothing, there's something, but it isn't anything like what you thought or believed or prepared yourself for at all?
Originally Posted by Draka
How would you know that? What if you are wrong about those consequences? Perhaps it's not so black and white as you seem to think it is. You seem to leave out the possibility that there may indeed be something afterward, something beyond death, it just might not be what you think it is. What then? What if you die and it isn't blackness, it isn't nothing, there's something, but it isn't anything like what you thought or believed or prepared yourself for at all?


In other words, what if you are wrong,...on both counts?

If I am wrong then I have a hopeless existence, I have nothing to live for and more importantly nothing to die for. If I am wrong then this life, this body this earthly presence is all there is and even If my goal is to make the best of it,what is the point really. As a Christian we are taught to not love the things in this life but to set our minds for heavenly things. If I am wrong woe is me, just woe is me.....

This is a concept I refuse to accept, I will never be comfortable and have peace, I will never be content and say " oh well worm food aint so bad" or the most common " who cares? I will be dead" . Really I understand how the mind cannot grasp the things unclear, and make our own God each one his own, but to accept and be content with no God is beyond my comprehension at all.

 

[Lady B]

The reason IMO why you're having such a difficult time imagining the perspective of an atheist is because you're still viewing everything through the lens of a theist, and a specific exclusive lens at that. An atheist accepts the possibility of your god no more than you accept the possibility of pink unicorns or leprechauns existing.

If you can imagine what life is like without pink unicorns or leprechauns, then you can imagine what life is like for an atheist without any deities at all.

If I can imagine life with pink unicorns and leprechauns then maybe I can imagine Life without God.

 

[Alceste]

It would be futile for me to explain consequences pertaining to my own religion to anyone who refutes it entirely right? What would eternally damned mean to you? What sense can it possibly make to those who simply Ignore its possibilities. For instance If I say to an atheist, believe in God or go to hell, what does hell mean for him? He can't except the bibles hell, or the Koran's hell or any other religion that speaks of hell, perhaps in his mind he created his own hell and he is fine with that.
Hell for me is being eternally separated from God, the atheist already takes this position in life, so whereas the harm? whereas the fear of it? I have seen replies stating if God would send them to hell then he is evil anyway, what logic is this? Is it unjust that a guilty man be put in prison? Are you without guilt really? As for me I am guilty, I am depraved not by nature but by my own choices, I have no one to blame and I will be judged accordingly. But for the atheist who can judge him? By what standards what laws is he found guilty or innocent? This is not about what I believe as that has no importance to anyone aside from me and my own God, this is about what you the atheist believe. I still find it hard to understand a man content without God.
Sorry If I haven't answered your questions to your liking, I am new to this forum style and It is still difficult to even quote properly.

You kind of have to explain your beliefs. Otherwise, when you ask how we feel without "God", we don't know whose God you're talking about. When you ask whether we worry about "hell", we don't know which hell you're talking about. I take religious beliefs on a case by case basis. Since my own spiritual life is non-theistic, I don't have any specific picture in mind when you ask how I feel about "God".

To give you a sense of what it's like, perhaps, let me ask you a couple of questions based on my own spiritual experience.

How can you be peaceful without practicing Tai Chi? How do you sleep at night clinging to goodness and beauty, knowing that they can only exist in equal measure with evil and ugliness? How can you bear the pain of living out of harmony with your nature, and the burden of "trying to do" when you could simply be "doing or not-doing"? How can you stand being chopped up into pieces - mind and body, body and soul, heart and mind - instead of being a unified whole? How can you stand to believe things that can not be true? Doesn't that give you a headache?

 

[Alceste]

If I am wrong then I have a hopeless existence, I have nothing to live for and more importantly nothing to die for. If I am wrong then this life, this body this earthly presence is all there is and even If my goal is to make the best of it,what is the point really. As a Christian we are taught to not love the things in this life but to set our minds for heavenly things. If I am wrong woe is me, just woe is me.....

This is a concept I refuse to accept, I will never be comfortable and have peace, I will never be content and say " oh well worm food aint so bad" or the most common " who cares? I will be dead" . Really I understand how the mind cannot grasp the things unclear, and make our own God each one his own, but to accept and be content with no God is beyond my comprehension at all.

Maybe you're wrong and life is MORE fulfilling and peaceful without your religious views. If you can't even imagine being an atheist, how can you know? For my part, I can't imagine thinking I have to worry about judgment and damnation, because I'm being constantly watched, even in my thoughts. I mean... geuhh * shudder *. That's just awful. How do YOU sleep at night?

 

[kylixguru]

Well if you say you have seen him, ok :/ But baby, are u sure u have seen him? don't delude yourself.

Let's put it this way. I opened myself up to seeing things and things appeared.
The quality of what you see in this realm depends upon the purity of the intent of the person looking.
So, while I saw what I saw, I yet hold the understanding that my own delusion could be part of the picture.
I was only able to see what I saw because I have been willing to accept I could be deluded and found that I have been before.
So, if the principle of always being open to seeing things in a higher and better way has merit to get a view that constantly perfects itself, then why should I ever lay it down?

Isn't that the whole point of this thread?

Once someone is arguing from the position of:

"I've got there and there is nothing I'm wrong about"

That's just their way of saying:

"I've gone as far as I have the capacity to go and I am blind to any further possibilities."

 

[Lady B]

You kind of have to explain your beliefs. Otherwise, when you ask how we feel without "God", we don't know whose God you're talking about. When you ask whether we worry about "hell", we don't know which hell you're talking about. I take religious beliefs on a case by case basis. Since my own spiritual life is non-theistic, I don't have any specific picture in mind when you ask how I feel about "God".

To give you a sense of what it's like, perhaps, let me ask you a couple of questions based on my own spiritual experience.

How can you be peaceful without practicing Tai Chi? How do you sleep at night clinging to goodness and beauty, knowing that they can only exist in equal measure with evil and ugliness? How can you bear the pain of living out of harmony with your nature, and the burden of "trying to do" when you could simply be "doing or not-doing"? How can you stand being chopped up into pieces - mind and body, body and soul, heart and mind - instead of being a unified whole? How can you stand to believe things that can not be true? Doesn't that give you a headache?

Good point! Except I did not ask " how do you feel about God" or even make this about my God and my beliefs, so to explain my own beliefs, again it is futile and a specific God is not in question it is the absence of any God that has me perplexed. I am not in anyway astounded that one does not believe the God of the bible, this is not a rarity and I agree one can see this God as ridiculous as I see in the spiritual things you questioned me in.
So in summery I feel I have been answered in this thread and have more insight as to how the atheist can have peace in his own understanding. Thank you sincerely for the respectful discussion, you all have been lovely

 

[Alceste]

Good point! Except I did not ask " how do you feel about God" or even make this about my God and my beliefs, so to explain my own beliefs, again it is futile and a specific God is not in question it is the absence of any God that has me perplexed. I am not in anyway astounded that one does not believe the God of the bible, this is not a rarity and I agree one can see this God as ridiculous as I see in the spiritual things you questioned me in.
So in summery I feel I have been answered in this thread and have more insight as to how the atheist can have peace in his own understanding. Thank you sincerely for the respectful discussion, you all have been lovely

You're very welcome. Glad you feel you got something useful from it.

Edit: since you have no trouble imagining disbelief in this or that God, to imagine life without any God you just have to take the way you feel about a deity you don't believe in, like Poseidon, and uniformly apply those same feelings to all deities.

 

[Lady B]

Maybe you're wrong and life is MORE fulfilling and peaceful without your religious views. If you can't even imagine being an atheist, how can you know? For my part, I can't imagine thinking I have to worry about judgment and damnation, because I'm being constantly watched, even in my thoughts. I mean... geuhh * shudder *. That's just awful. How do YOU sleep at night?

That is an interesting statement, I was about to leave, thinking OK where else could this discussion go? But now you have opened up a new question for me.

I am of course grasping here and not assuming that you have a basic and not complex view of judgment, my question is: without fear of judgment or condemnation how do you hold yourself accountable? I am sure you don't lead a lawless life so what happens when you do something awful? How do you live with the guilt? Who forgives you? You live by the cultural laws or basic moral laws? Be kind to one another, do unto others as you would like done to you? This is all good things don't get me wrong, but what happens when you break a law you adhere to? Do you then forgive yourself seeing yourself as the only one your accountable to and move on?

I am sure it is more peaceful to not live your life in fear of judgment, however If you put your life in the hands of a just God a forgiving God, your fears are diminished, not entirely for to love is also to fear and persevere.

 

[otokage007]

Let's put it this way. I opened myself up to seeing things and things appeared.
The quality of what you see in this realm depends upon the purity of the intent of the person looking.
So, while I saw what I saw, I yet hold the understanding that my own delusion could be part of the picture.
I was only able to see what I saw because I have been willing to accept I could be deluded and found that I have been before.
So, if the principle of always being open to seeing things in a higher and better way has merit to get a view that constantly perfects itself, then why should I ever lay it down?

Isn't that the whole point of this thread?

Once someone is arguing from the position of:

"I've got there and there is nothing I'm wrong about"

That's just their way of saying:

"I've gone as far as I have the capacity to go and I am blind to any further possibilities."

Well, this is how I see it: if you are an atheist and you go to heaven, no one will blame you because the only thing u did was look for the truth. It is not logical to accept the existence of something when there's not a single proof, and we are not speaking of accepting the existence of some harmless and useless bacteria in the middle of the Atlantic. We are speaking about God, it really makes a difference in your life if you believe in him or not. At the end of the day, I think even if you are an atheist, good people will still go to Heaven, so anyway.

But if you are a believer, you will adhere to a dogma that could prevent u from having fun in your life, and you will hold illusions of an afterlife that may never come. You may even explode yourself thinking u are going heaven, like some kamikaze muslims did.

 

[Lady B]

Well, this is how I see it: if you are an atheist and you go to heaven, no one will blame you because the only thing u did was look for the truth. It is not logical to accept the existence of something when there's not a single proof, and we are not speaking of accepting the existence of some harmless and useless bacteria in the middle of the Atlantic. We are speaking about God, it really makes a difference in your life if you believe in him or not. At the end of the day, I think even if you are an atheist, good people will still go to Heaven, so anyway.

But if you are a believer, you will adhere to a dogma that could prevent u from having fun in your life, and you will hold illusions of an afterlife that may never come. You may even explode yourself thinking u are going heaven, like some kamikaze muslims did.

So you have nothing to lose? You feel safe to deny any deity and have his blessings at the end of the day? Because your good? By who's standard are you good? In my religion God says "no man is good ,no not one". And no man deserves heaven, it is a gift for those that love him by his grace and mercy.

 

[jarofthoughts]

So you have nothing to lose? You feel safe to deny any deity and have his blessings at the end of the day? Because your good? By who's standard are you good? In my religion God says "no man is good ,no not one". And no man deserves heaven, it is a gift for those that love him by his grace and mercy.

[youtube]c7ozH3G2jfg[/youtube]
Slaves are made in such ways - YouTube

 

[Lady B]

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life (Rom. 6:16-22).


yeah I am this slave, willingly, proudly!

 

[jarofthoughts]

yeah I am this slave, willingly, proudly!

Fine. Be 'his' slave if that is what you want.
But keep me out of it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

[/B]

If I can imagine life with pink unicorns and leprechauns then maybe I can imagine Life without God.

Okay. Imagine your life with pink unicorns and leprechauns and get back to me when doing so improves your life, your relationships, and your peace of mind.

If you can do that and succeed in doing just that.....meaning put aside your belief in Christianity and believe in pink unicorns and leprechauns......and you find everything changes for the better for you, I'll take you up on your wager to give Christianity another go.

But if you think it's futile to believe in pink unicorns and leprechauns because 1) You'd be lying to yourself, and 2) It's based on hearing another person tell them they MUST believe in it, rather than an honest self-assessment of what's in front of you - then you'll understand why I don't believe in your religion, and why I practice my different one.

 

[9Westy9]

I have been bouncing around the different threads and I see so much false assurance,but what if your wrong?
In all due respect can an atheist have peace? Is there no higher power then science? Do you really sleep well at night content with no God? What happens after death? Where are your loved ones? Is earthly life all you strive for and death is the end of you? Are you so sure, really?
What if...just What if your wrong? What are the consequences of your denial?
:thud:

This video pretty much nails it

[youtube]iClejS8vWjo[/youtube]
...And What If I'm Wrong? - YouTube

 

[Alceste]

That is an interesting statement, I was about to leave, thinking OK where else could this discussion go? But now you have opened up a new question for me.

I am of course grasping here and not assuming that you have a basic and not complex view of judgment, my question is: without fear of judgment or condemnation how do you hold yourself accountable? I am sure you don't lead a lawless life so what happens when you do something awful? How do you live with the guilt? Who forgives you? You live by the cultural laws or basic moral laws? Be kind to one another, do unto others as you would like done to you? This is all good things don't get me wrong, but what happens when you break a law you adhere to? Do you then forgive yourself seeing yourself as the only one your accountable to and move on?

I am sure it is more peaceful to not live your life in fear of judgment, however If you put your life in the hands of a just God a forgiving God, your fears are diminished, not entirely for to love is also to fear and persevere.

Good questions. My own conscience holds me accountable for my actions. It simply never occurs to me to do anything my conscience feels is wrong, let alone "awful". If I do any harm to anyone, even unwittingly, I feel accountable to them. Their forgiveness is the only forgiveness I would need to seek outside my own, and feeling guilt is my big clue that I need to seek their forgiveness. I don't live with guilt. I rectify my wrongs to the best of my ability and the guilt dissipates.

I don't have any serious fears to diminish that I'm aware of. I decided at an early age that fear clouds judgment. I simply decided not to allow fear to inform any important decisions I would make in my life. Since I made that decision, I have confronted my fears and conquered them as they arise. Of course, this work is never done. Fear is a clever, sneaky thing, like weeds in a garden.

 

[otokage007]

So you have nothing to lose? You feel safe to deny any deity and have his blessings at the end of the day? Because your good? By who's standard are you good? In my religion God says "no man is good ,no not one". And no man deserves heaven, it is a gift for those that love him by his grace and mercy.

Sorry but I can not love a shadow. If he wants me to be out of his "super cool realm" then so be it, I'm sure Satan isn't as bad as God portrays him. *walks away indignated*