Do you own the USA? (Closed/open border debate)

[an anarchist]

I live really close to the US/Mexico border.

Many people I've talked to or heard from in my community vote for Trump because "He is going to stop the illegal immigrants from coming into our country and stealing our jobs."

In this thread, I want to talk about the idea of our country and our jobs.

People immigrate to the USA for better quality of life. It seems that people who are against "illegal immigration" are worried that there is not enough quality of life to go around. This is apparent with them bringing up "our jobs". The fear they have is they won't be able to get a job if everyone is free to come to the USA. Trump supporters think they have some sort of dibs on the quality of life in America.

Even if the idea fear that there is not enough resources to go around is true, do you, as an American, have more of a right to an opportunity of a good life, as opposed to someone not born here?

Let's say that an immigrant gets chosen over you for a job. That's a skill issue on your part, not the immigrants fault.

From the rhetoric I hear from people who dislike immigration and are pro deportation, I generally get the idea that they are fearful that quality of life will go down for them if immigrants are free to come to America.

Is this line of reasoning true? Even if it is, I think it is selfish and we should allow immigrants/refugees a chance to travel to America.

I also ask if an American has dibs on quality of life? Refugees aren't our problem, and if they have a chance to make something for themselves in America, then that will somehow negatively affect me!... Or the thinking seems to go. I think it is wrong thought. You, as an American, have no more of a right to quality of life than someone who is not an American.

 

[Quintessence]

I look at this from the perspective of ecology and the environment because that's my background.

The way ecosystems work on a general level is that organisms can sustain themselves in a weave of interrelations through dynamic and ever changing interactions with one another and abiotic aspects of their environment. Various stressors inevitably happen and change the nature of that weave. One species consumes too much, something shifts there to compensate, something collapses, something new is built, and so on and so on in dynamic cycles. Human societies work more or less the same way, with similar inefficiencies and messy nonsense. Both ecology and human ecology are honestly way too complicated to get into detail here, so I'll leave it at that for now.

The point I want to make is that human migrations happen in response to ecological and environmental conditions. And animal migrations always cause some level of change within the ecosystem or environment they move to. The nature of those changes depends on a whole bunch of complicated factors. In this era of very stressed ecosystems and environments globally, human migrations will become an increasing phenomena. Whether one wants to be threatened by this natural phenomena or not is a personal choice. How one feels about it will not stop the reality of it happening, the inevitability of it happening, and the need for it to happen. One can keep spitting into the wind only for it to blow back in your face. Or, one can accept the winds and guide them so they land somewhere that works well for the system.

Just speaking to the migrant workforce in my area - the jobs migrants are "taking" aren't the ones domestic humans want. The new winds are not actually in competition the existing winds to begin with. The new winds are filling an empty niche in the human ecosystems here that domestic humans have left vacant and underserved. And it is making the ecosystem here more healthy than it was without them. It also helps (hopefully) to avoid awful cases of human trafficking, like this one that got blown open in my own state recently. Because nobody domestic wants to work in the awful meat packing plants, a community college engaged in... I don't even have the words, honestly. I'm not even that surprised this happened in this deep red part of the state, but... why is that folks who are so loudly complaining about migrants are also doing nonsense like this? It's almost like migrants are part of the solution to your labor problem and that maybe workers should be treated like human beings instead of slave labor in awful working conditions or something... but I digress.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

1. We live in an imperialist country that has benefitted enormously from colonialism.
2. As noted here, the idea that immigrants are making things worse for U.S.-born workers is wrong. The reality is that the labor market is absorbing immigrants at a rapid pace, while simultaneously maintaining record-low unemployment for U.S.-born workers. [source]

Us versus them is a ploy used in this country for many decades. Rather than fighting the Other for a bigger piece of the pie, we should be demanding a bigger pie.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I live really close to the US/Mexico border.

Many people I've talked to or heard from in my community vote for Trump because "He is going to stop the illegal immigrants from coming into our country and stealing our jobs."

In this thread, I want to talk about the idea of our country and our jobs.

People immigrate to the USA for better quality of life. It seems that people who are against "illegal immigration" are worried that there is not enough quality of life to go around. This is apparent with them bringing up "our jobs". The fear they have is they won't be able to get a job if everyone is free to come to the USA. Trump supporters think they have some sort of dibs on the quality of life in America.

Even if the idea fear that there is not enough resources to go around is true, do you, as an American, have more of a right to an opportunity of a good life, as opposed to someone not born here?

Let's say that an immigrant gets chosen over you for a job. That's a skill issue on your part, not the immigrants fault.

From the rhetoric I hear from people who dislike immigration and are pro deportation, I generally get the idea that they are fearful that quality of life will go down for them if immigrants are free to come to America.

Is this line of reasoning true? Even if it is, I think it is selfish and we should allow immigrants/refugees a chance to travel to America.

I also ask if an American has dibs on quality of life? Refugees aren't our problem, and if they have a chance to make something for themselves in America, then that will somehow negatively affect me!... Or the thinking seems to go. I think it is wrong thought. You, as an American, have no more of a right to quality of life than someone who is not an American.

For me national identity is essential for the survival of any people.

You ever take a look at countries where people come from? They create or allow their own problems, they don't fight back to rectify their problems, and now they want to go into somebody else's yard univited bringing their way of life with them, and affecting the country they invade with their own baggage.

That line of reasoning is absolutely true, all it takes is one look at Native Americans and what the colonies have done to their Nations that proves it's true.

As far as dibs go I think it's actually true we do have the right to claim land as one's own sometimes through violent and peaceful means because that's just how nature works with social and territorial animals.

We are apes and our collective territorial nature is pretty well established on that front.

Most would not share their home with strangers no more than we would share a country with foreigners who are not invited.

On the plus side, it is true we are not completely territorial and will invite outsiders in , but it would have to be on terms of one's national identity and not the other way around.

 

[Estro Felino]

Wouldn't it be more logical to implement a sort or Marshall Plan in Central America, so these nations prosper and won't need to migrate en masse to North America?
You cannot deprive these nations of their best men and women. We need to help those countries prosper.
So that mass migration will stop.

But that would be possible if we weren't ruled by usurocracy. I mean...what are the World Bank, the IMF?
Philanthropic organizations...or...you know...

 

[Heyo]

I live really close to the US/Mexico border.

Many people I've talked to or heard from in my community vote for Trump because "He is going to stop the illegal immigrants from coming into our country and stealing our jobs."

In this thread, I want to talk about the idea of our country and our jobs.

People immigrate to the USA for better quality of life. It seems that people who are against "illegal immigration" are worried that there is not enough quality of life to go around. This is apparent with them bringing up "our jobs". The fear they have is they won't be able to get a job if everyone is free to come to the USA. Trump supporters think they have some sort of dibs on the quality of life in America.

Even if the idea fear that there is not enough resources to go around is true, do you, as an American, have more of a right to an opportunity of a good life, as opposed to someone not born here?

Let's say that an immigrant gets chosen over you for a job. That's a skill issue on your part, not the immigrants fault.

From the rhetoric I hear from people who dislike immigration and are pro deportation, I generally get the idea that they are fearful that quality of life will go down for them if immigrants are free to come to America.

Is this line of reasoning true? Even if it is, I think it is selfish and we should allow immigrants/refugees a chance to travel to America.

I also ask if an American has dibs on quality of life? Refugees aren't our problem, and if they have a chance to make something for themselves in America, then that will somehow negatively affect me!... Or the thinking seems to go. I think it is wrong thought. You, as an American, have no more of a right to quality of life than someone who is not an American.

The US immigration system is messed up from start to finish, and no major party is going to do anything useful about it. Why let a perfectly fine catastrophe go to waste? Dems can rally their bleeding-heart voters on the conditions that poor immigrants are treated bad, and pubs can rally their sociopathic voters because immigrants aren't treated bad enough, all while some industries thrive on employing illegal immigrants far below minimum wage.
Add to that, that the problem is partly self-made, because bad living conditions are the result of the US destabilizing governments in Latin America.
And if one looks more precisely and distinguishes between legal and illegal immigrants and asylum seekers, one finds that it is often not worth the hustle to apply for asylum or a work visa. In Europe, you don't get work or can rent a flat without paperwork. You can't even buy a phone without ID. That's because the landlord, employer or phone company will be prosecuted. Not so in the US.
There are more details that are messed up. And, as I said, nobody is really willing to handle the problem proper.

 

[an anarchist]

Most would not share their home with strangers no more than we would share a country with foreigners who are not invited.

Do you own the USA?

I don't think the oft used comparison of one's home versus one's country is valid.

 

[RestlessSoul]

For me national identity is essential for the survival of any people.

You ever take a look at countries where people come from? They create or allow their own problems, they don't fight back to rectify their problems, and now they want to go into somebody else's yard univited bringing their way of life with them, and affecting the country they invade with their own baggage.

That line of reasoning is absolutely true, all it takes is one look at Native Americans and what the colonies have done to their Nations that proves it's true.

As far as dibs go I think it's actually true we do have the right to claim land as one's own sometimes through violent and peaceful means because that's just how nature works with social and territorial animals.

We are apes and our collective territorial nature is pretty well established on that front.

Most would not share their home with strangers no more than we would share a country with foreigners who are not invited.

On the plus side, it is true we are not completely territorial and will invite outsiders in , but it would have to be on terms of one's national identity and not the other way around.

How many back yards do you think your country’s agents have walked into uninvited?

 

[Twilight Hue]

How many back yards do you think your country’s agents have walked into uninvited?

How many of yours is in ours?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Do you own the USA?

I don't think the oft used comparison of one's home versus one's country is valid.

We certainly do own it collectively. My nation is my home.

 

[an anarchist]

How many of yours is in ours?

Random photo but it gives the general idea of the point I'm trying to make.

 

[RestlessSoul]

How many of yours is in ours?

Well based on the fact you speak our language, I’d say a lot.

 

[Twilight Hue]

View attachment 95171
Random photo but it gives the general idea of the point I'm trying to make.

On a galactic scale perhaps

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Even if the idea fear that there is not enough resources to go around is true, do you, as an American, have more of a right to an opportunity of a good life, as opposed to someone not born here?

Let's say that an immigrant gets chosen over you for a job. That's a skill issue on your part, not the immigrants fault.

From the rhetoric I hear from people who dislike immigration and are pro deportation, I generally get the idea that they are fearful that quality of life will go down for them if immigrants are free to come to America.

I guess my feeling is, that I can't just give you an answer to the questions in your op without a much greater understanding of what is actually happening. In the past year I've read a couple books on immigration to america, one from a left-wing perspective, and another from the right-wing perspective. I've also read some economic theory in the past year. I read some marx, I read 'the 4rth industrial revolution,' some peter zeihan, and I read books on american homelessness. There some videos I saw about the darien gap, and I want to read more about that. And then, human migration is all over the place in history books, from ancient to modern. That tells us something as well

Overall, just from my own anecdotal perpective, as a long-time blue-collar worker, I don't think it comes down to a skill-issue, but it's maybe more like a willpower issue, or a cultural difference. My suspicion, is that since 60's, the american population has wanted to break into white-collar work, and teach their offspring this, and try to make that the standard below which other work is a sort of sub-standard domain. And while I understand people wanting those 'better' jobs, I feel that there still is a need to do the more boring, perhaps harder, and neccesary kinds of work, at least until AI or automation can do them

But in my experience, I'm kind of looked down on by other americans for doing all this factory work that I do, while the immigrants just seem to consider it to be normal, legitmate work, that you can raise a family on, with there being nothing to be ashamed of. And I often don't detect much misery around them, when working with them. But with americans, it's often been a bit of a downer. They ask me 'oh why don't you go to college,' or 'you should get a better job.' And they seem unhappy. I guess I often prefer to work around immigrants then, but at the same time, that can leave me feeling like an oustider sometimes. I can't fully join in with their worldview I guess, or culture, I'm just not one of them

 

[Quintessence]

But in my experience, I'm kind of looked down on by other americans for doing all this factory work that I do, while the immigrants just seem to consider it to be normal, legitmate work, that you can raise a family on, with there being nothing to be ashamed of. And I often don't detect much misery around them, when working with them. But with americans, it's often been a bit of a downer. They ask me 'oh why don't you go to college,' or 'you should get a better job.' And they seem unhappy. I guess I often prefer to work around immigrants then, but at the same time, that can leave me feeling like an oustider sometimes. I can't fully join in with their worldview I guess, or culture, I'm just not one of them

This is such an important point.

When I talk with students I advise at university I try to get them to understand the value of all types of work. Some students at the university just do not... well, I don't want to say they don't belong there, exactly, but it isn't really where they want too be and what they want too do. There's this socially constructed narrative that certain types of jobs are "nothingburgers" and you should "achieve" something "better" for yourself. There's an obsession with socially constructed prestige and power and money. And, unfortunately, the structure of society has reinforced that in ways that make it more difficult than it should be to just work a trade job and support yourself.

Even though I deeply value education myself and would've done higher ed regardless, I've enjoyed the so-called "nothingburger" jobs I've had quite a lot. Problem is, I couldn't sustain myself off them for a variety of reasons. Supposedly, it used to be the head of household could have a job like that and earn enough of a living to have a family. With one household earner! What happened to that? Where did that go?

 

[Shaul]

I live really close to the US/Mexico border.

Many people I've talked to or heard from in my community vote for Trump because "He is going to stop the illegal immigrants from coming into our country and stealing our jobs."

In this thread, I want to talk about the idea of our country and our jobs.

People immigrate to the USA for better quality of life. It seems that people who are against "illegal immigration" are worried that there is not enough quality of life to go around. This is apparent with them bringing up "our jobs". The fear they have is they won't be able to get a job if everyone is free to come to the USA. Trump supporters think they have some sort of dibs on the quality of life in America.

Even if the idea fear that there is not enough resources to go around is true, do you, as an American, have more of a right to an opportunity of a good life, as opposed to someone not born here?

Let's say that an immigrant gets chosen over you for a job. That's a skill issue on your part, not the immigrants fault.

From the rhetoric I hear from people who dislike immigration and are pro deportation, I generally get the idea that they are fearful that quality of life will go down for them if immigrants are free to come to America.

Is this line of reasoning true? Even if it is, I think it is selfish and we should allow immigrants/refugees a chance to travel to America.

I also ask if an American has dibs on quality of life? Refugees aren't our problem, and if they have a chance to make something for themselves in America, then that will somehow negatively affect me!... Or the thinking seems to go. I think it is wrong thought. You, as an American, have no more of a right to quality of life than someone who is not an American.

Let's focus on just one statement you made. "People immigrate to the USA for better quality of life." This statement is demonstrably false. The government itself acknowledges that there are illegal immigrants who are on the terrorist watch list. It is not credible that these individuals entered for a better quality of life.

Furthermore, seeking a better quality of life on the part of prospective immigrants does NOT trump the national interests of the U.S. It is only one factor to be considered and not the primary one.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Let's focus on just one statement you made. "People immigrate to the USA for better quality of life." This statement is demonstrably false. The government itself acknowledges that there are illegal immigrants who are on the terrorist watch list. It is not credible that these individuals entered for a better quality of life.

Furthermore, seeking a better quality of life on the part of prospective immigrants does NOT trump the national interests of the U.S. It is only one factor to be considered and not the primary one.

Yeah. And so what? From there are terrorists, foreign and domestic ones. But that is not all government is about.
So yes, you have a point but it is a limited one, unless you want to turn the USA in to a police state in effect.

 

[an anarchist]

People immigrate to the USA for better quality of life." This statement is demonstrably false. The government itself acknowledges that there are illegal immigrants who are on the terrorist watch list. It is not credible that these individuals entered for a better quality of life.

Most terrorist attacks are domestic mass shootings...

Most people immigrating are not a terror threat.

 

[Shaul]

Most terrorist attacks are domestic mass shootings...

Most people immigrating are not a terror threat.

Irrelevant to the point that there are terrorists among illegal immigrants who didn't come to seek a better life. Whether some other people are putative terrorists doesn't change that fact.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Irrelevant to the point that there are terrorists among illegal immigrants who didn't come to seek a better life. Whether some other people are putative terrorists doesn't change that fact.

Yeah, but that is a single fact and nothing as such follows from that.