Do you support marriage rights for homosexuals?

[Gharib]

It has every relevence given the nature of your arguement which suggest that it is immoral. What other have attempted to do is show the difference between natural things and wilfully immoral acts like how many people today view the marriage of your prophet.

Can you not see that ideals change, and are changing. Homosexuality is beginning to gain acceptance from all areas aside from religious bigots and homophobes.

in islam when one hits puberty they are considered Adults. therefore to argue the issue of Aishas radiallahu anhu age is a waste of time, if someone hits puberty at the age of 20 then so be it, thats when he/she will be considered an adult. you are judging a person who lived 1400 years ago with your standards of what is acceptable and what is not. in australia there is no capital punishment, does it make the cases of those who did face capital punishment in the past wrong, no it doesn't because at the time of those laws it was acceptable to follg someone for certain crimes.

and just because homosexuality is gaining acceptance it doesn't make it any less of an immoral act than if rape was to gain acceptance.

 

[LuisDantas]

Eselam, did you reply to Post #229?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2434048-post229.html

 

[Gharib]

I'm confused. What does the title of the thread has to do with 9/10ths statement that homosexual acts will never cease to exist?

his statement says no such thing:

Then why are you arguing for a situation where nobody engages in homosexual acts at all? That's not going to happen either.

 

[Gharib]

Eselam, did you reply to Post #229?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2434048-post229.html

it seems i haven't, i will now.

 

[Bismillah]

That would suggest that the Islamic vision of a family is flawed, then.

On what basis?

Or, maybe, that it hasn't been sufficiently elaborated yet to account for the reality of homosexuality.

No one debates whether homosexuality exists, I assure you it is a known occurrence throughout history that humans have been proven to be susceptible. It merely rejects such an expression of lust for one that is divinely ordained and falls in line with the Islamic ideal of the dual roles of man and women and how they complement and thrive off each other.

Or, perhaps, that (many? most?) Muslims aren't really interested in dealing with the fact that homosexuality exists and will not go away.

That is a bit closer, I could care less what non-Muslims do but on the subject of Islam there is no such thing as Homosexual Marriages. There is a bit of a gray area with the non-believers and honestly it is a very obscure and irrelevant question when taken into proportion with the much greater needs of the Muslim world.

Also, in which sense would homosexuality be a perversion? It is not like it changes people's behavior or makes then perverse or even irresponsible. More like the opposite

It is a perversion of the Islamic family dynamic as well as a perversion of how one can find love in the world.

 

[LuisDantas]

On what basis?

A model for families and societies that can't handle people as they actually are is by definition flawed, isn't it?

No one debates whether homosexuality exists, I assure you it is a known occurrence throughout history that humans have been proven to be susceptible. It merely rejects such an expression of lust for one that is divinely ordained and falls in line with the Islamic ideal of the dual roles of man and women and how they complement and thrive off each other.

Then I guess Islam isn't for everyone, and never will be. It seems that it can't be made to work for either homosexuals or atheists.

Or, for that matter, for any people who don't really want to be a part of a traditional nuclear family, apparently.

Which is probably fair, but I always got the impression that Muslims don't really want to drive that many people away from Islam, but rather would have essentially the whole of humanity becoming Muslims. Some kind of misunderstanding must be happening here. I'm not sure where.

That is a bit closer, I could care less what non-Muslims do but on the subject of Islam there is no such thing as Homosexual Marriages. There is a bit of a gray area with the non-believers and honestly it is a very obscure and irrelevant question when taken into proportion with the much greater needs of the Muslim world.

I respectfully disagree. The suffering of homosexuals in Muslim societies is a great enough question to deserve attention. On that I am certain.

It is a perversion of the Islamic family dynamic as well as a perversion of how one can find love in the world.

I'll grant the first statement, albeit but only because I am not particularly interested in ensuring the applicability and relevance of the Islamic family dynamic. Were I a Muslim, then I would challenge that claim.

The second statement, however, is simply misguided. There is absolutely no perversion in homosexuals seeking love in homosexual relationships and marriages. If anything, that is a welcome breath of fresh air into the chastised institution that is marriage.

 

[Gharib]

In all honesty, no, it doesn't really make sense. If anything, it shows how it is bizarre to call homosexuality wrong.

Homosexuality is nothing more, nothing less than the existence of attraction between people of the same gender. It can certainly cause social disconfort, but at its core it is little different from heterosexuality, and just as legitimate as it.

Rape is something else entirely. A rapist may well attempt to claim that he did nothing wrong - but, in all likelihood, he will be lying. He may like the feelings of power that he obtains by raping, but with few exceptions he knows full well that he is hurting the people he rapes.

Homosexual couples, by contrast, are often very dedicated and caring to each other, and establish healthy relationships. There is certainly little to even hint that same sex marriages are in any sense less healthy, at any level, than heterosexual marriages.

the first case of AIDS was recorded in 5 homosexual men, you wanna guess what they might have been doing.

For a believer in the God of Abraham to oppose same sex marriage is, in my sincere opinion, both a terrible lack of human compassion towards fellow people and a major religious failure, for if God exists and sees fit to make people homosexual, then it won't do for believers to decide that God blundered while at that. For all anyone really knows, God loves homosexuals as much as anyone else, and expects the Faithful to realize that it is wrong to let scripture be used to justify the rejection of actual people that can't help but be what they are.

i'm not saying that God hates homosexuals, i'm saying that the acts of homosexuality (sex and anything that 2 homosexuals might engage in) is what God hates thereofre i hate it too. i am not against someone who has feelings for someone of the same sex but controls those feelings and instead lives a life of a heterosexual. the reason why i can say that this is possible is because muslims are in a similar situation.

For all anyone may really know, maybe God hoped for Abraham to realize that respecting Him and blindly following His commands regardless of the situation are two very different things.

are you saying that i and other muslims are blindly following our religion? or even others of other religions?

Do you think God would have loved Abraham less if he refused outright to kill his own son? I don't. A good human father won't think less of his son for refusing an order to kill his own son. Would God be any less wise or less compassionate than a human being?

that has nothing to do with homosexuality, God told Abraham to kill his son to prove his obedience and faith to God, he had no son and when he asked for one God gave him one, then he tested his faith.

Similarly, when I try to think like a Believer, I just can't imagine that God would like his people to oppose homosexual love. It would be lack of faith in his designs, for it was Him who allowed them to be homosexuals after all. It would be a failure to show proper fraternity and compassion, for after all homosexuals are people just like anyone else. And it would be a lack of moral courage, for the People of the Book shouldn't be afraid of learning to love and accept people even if they believe them to be sinners.

tryting to think like a believer doesn't make you a believer, if you do not have the required faith you can think of yourself as a believer but it is pointless. even muslims with weak faith may not accept the islamic ruling of a death sentence for someone who engages in homosexual activity because to accept Gods will faith is required.

 

[Rakhel]

Can't say whether I have said this in this particular thread(there have been so many on this subject alone. I am truly tired of seeing the question over and over and over....) so I will say it again.

YES! YES! YES! Homosexuals deserve to be just as miserable as the rest of us shmucks.

 

[LuisDantas]

the first case of AIDS was recorded in 5 homosexual men, you wanna guess what they might have been doing.

AIDS is transmitted by sexual relations, true. So are many other diseases. How is that evidence of something wrong with homosexuality?

i'm not saying that God hates homosexuals, i'm saying that the acts of homosexuality (sex and anything that 2 homosexuals might engage in) is what God hates therefore i hate it too.

There is unfortunately no subtle way to say this: you are simply wrong, so very wrong about that. It is flat out impossible for God to hate homosexuals just because they are homosexuals or even because they practice homosexual sex.

Homosexual sex, after all, is simply sex between people of the same gender. How could that possibly inspire hatred in either a decent human being or the supreme God from which goodness itself emanates?

No way. It just can't be even conceived, much less true.

i am not against someone who has feelings for someone of the same sex but controls those feelings and instead lives a life of a heterosexual. the reason why i can say that this is possible is because muslims are in a similar situation.

Similar? I don't think you are saying that Muslims are usually latent homosexuals, so I must be failing to understand you outright.

are you saying that i and other muslims are blindly following our religion? or even others of other religions?

I guess I am, to the extent that you consider homosexuality a sin.

Whomever rejects homosexuals or hates them out of religious conviction alone is doing no favors for his own religion. A good enough religious person will doubtless realize that religious doctrine must be made to work with the needs and plights of people as they actually exist.

In all fairness, I just don't see how anyone who believes in the God of Abraham can also believe that such a God would hate homosexuals. That is a direct contradition. A God of supreme good knows that homosexuality is no sin. Simple as that, really.

that has nothing to do with homosexuality, God told Abraham to kill his son to prove his obedience and faith to God, he had no son and when he asked for one God gave him one, then he tested his faith.

Who knows what would happen if Abraham chose to spare his son despite being tested by God, however? Would such a display of love and compassion be any more of a failure than leaving it for God Himself to spare his son's life instead?

In all honesty, I just don't think so.

tryting to think like a believer doesn't make you a believer, if you do not have the required faith you can think of yourself as a believer but it is pointless.

Is it? According to Abrahamic doctrine, didn't God choose to let me exist even if I am not a believer? Could I possibly do, think or believe in anything against his will? Can anyone really know that God does not want atheists like me to play a role in the faith of Believers?

In fact, can anyone really say that God does not love atheists, homosexuals or anyone else just as much as he loves faithful heterosexual believers? It would be easy enough to erase us out of existence, or to never let homosexuality happen in the first place, wouldn't it? Yet homosexuality exists, and is an innocent enough feeling for those who feel it.

I don't know if God exists. I really believe he doesn't. But I know for a fact that he does not want homosexuals to be hated, because I know homosexuals personally. They are not taken by evil or sin. They are not deserving of hatred. And a God of love will not want people to hate them. God is not insane, regardless of whether he actually exists or not.

even muslims with weak faith may not accept the islamic ruling of a death sentence for someone who engages in homosexual activity because to accept Gods will faith is required.

Faith is not fear, Eselam. A true faithful will gladly choose love over hatred.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm confused. What does the title of the thread has to do with 9/10ths statement that homosexual acts will never cease to exist?

his statement says no such thing:

Then why are you arguing for a situation where nobody engages in homosexual acts at all? That's not going to happen either.

Actually, the two statements (Penguim's and mine) look very much equivalent to me. Aren't they?

 

[Gharib]

Actually, the two statements (Penguim's and mine) look very much equivalent to me. Aren't they?

look again:

I'm confused. What does the title of the thread has to do with 9/10ths statement that homosexual acts will never cease to exist?

Then why are you arguing for a situation where nobody engages in homosexual acts at all? That's not going to happen either.

do you see it?

 

[LuisDantas]

They still look very much equivalent to me.

 

[McBell]

They still look very much equivalent to me.

I agree that they look very much the same.

 

[Gharib]

I agree that they look very much the same.

They still look very much equivalent to me.

If a law was proposed in your country allowing homosexuals to marry in mosques and churches that would accept them would you support or oppose it? If oppose, then you absolutely are stopping them.

i do not like to make up 'scenarios' for the sake of arguing and i sure don't like answering them. i don't see a point in saying what you've said when it wont ever happen.

Then why are you arguing for a situation where nobody engages in homosexual acts at all? That's not going to happen either.

nobody engages in homosexual acts? you might want to read the title of the thread once again.

now the title of the thread says marriage and in marriage sex is a part of it, so now please look at what Penguin said.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sure, marriage and sexual acts, while related, aren't really one and the same thing.

I think we can all agree about that.

Please continue.

 

[Gharib]

Sure, marriage and sexual acts, while related, aren't really one and the same thing.

I think we can all agree about that.

Please continue.

i agree with that.

 

[DarkSun]

I personally don't know why homosexuals would want to be married by an institution that oppresses them. There should be no law forcing the Church to marry homosexuals, and I don't really understand why they would want to be married by people who hate them tbh. But if they were married under more secular means, then I don't see why not. The Church shouldn't have any impact on the State in that instance.

I picked other.

 

[DarkSun]

the first case of AIDS was recorded in 5 homosexual men, you wanna guess what they might have been doing.

Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) causes AIDS. And HIV came from SIV (Simian Immunodeficiency Virus), when SIV crossed the species barrier.

Hybrid origin of SIV in chimpanzees. [Science. 2003] - PubMed result

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

nobody engages in homosexual acts? you might want to read the title of the thread once again.

Here's what I was getting at: you argued against same-sex marriage on the basis that it's not "Islamic". However, in the same-sex marriage debate, neither option is "Islamic":

- with same-sex marriage, you have homosexual couples living together, raising children under the legal protections of marriage.

- without same-sex marriage, you have homosexual couples living together, raising children... only without the legal protections of marriage.

Exactly which one of these options is "Islamic"? Which one is approved by the Quran?

Based on conversations I've had with Muslims, it seems that neither one is. They're both "un-Islamic" and not "Quran-approved". And because this fact is common to both options, it's not a valid basis to choose between them.

If you want to use the Quran in your argument here, you need to use it to show that the Quran disapproves of same-sex marriage more than unmarried same-sex couples.

Note that this is not the same thing as showing that it disapproves of homosexuality. Either way, you'll have just as many homosexual people doing just as many homosexual acts. Instead it's about deciding how to respond to these people, given that they exist.

 

[Vendetta]

I don't know why you guys went from marriage to talking about HIV/AIDS

Like I said I made a complete secular economist argument against gays marrying and you guys overlooked that lol I guess its easier to pick on someone who argues from a religious view than a secular one. I said it earlier and maybe I overreacted but ta profound now. For the record, I don't agree with esalem either but his view is so laughable, I don't see why his views warrant attention but not mines...