Do you think/believe that your body was designed/created?

[Godobeyer]

Well I was more discussing people's experience, it's not about some dogma. So your response isn't really applicable. I'm talking about what idolatry really is, and how we all participate in it.

I told you how Abrahamic religion deal with worship idols.

Atheists are very variable. Just being an atheist doesn't bind you to anything else. Why do you keep suspecting me of being willfully dishonest?

Yes it's dishonest if you was pretend that YOU ignore that atheists adopt abiogenesis as argument to deny God creation.

Do you know what the word polytheist means?

Is worshiping formes of God or Gods.

Meh, maybe. I know it's pretty mainstream among Sufis, and in the UK most Muslims are Sufi to some degree. Maybe Algeria is different, but these kinds of understandings as the deeper levels of Islamic understanding are gonna be very widespread in many parts of the world, including in South Asian Islamic communities, parts of Sub-Saharan Africa where the tariqats are strong, perhaps in Central Asian areas etc.

It's 'common', incidentally.

I believe that belief of Tawhid is minority even among the Sufis.

This Sufi DIR, ask them
http://www.religiousforums.com/forums/islamic-sufism-dir.267/

 

[Godobeyer]

And theists.

(For Abrahamic religion).
As origin of life ? I don't think so.

I get abiogenesis just fine. What I don't understand at all is how we say we are made from dirt or whatever with a straight face and then denounce the idea we came from nonliving materials. Just seems a bit hypocritical, is all.

If you want to believe in lie, that your problem.
theory abiogenesis is not fact.

Well, YOU can't wrap your mind around it. MUST be impossible, then ....

This is explanation why it's impossible.

The only way this possibly works is if you consider an idol a false god, so to worship it and the "true" god is polytheism. At any rate, "Poly" means "many" and "theism" means "of god(s)." It has NOTHING to do with idols.

Kirran did not seperate creation from God,everything is God to him, that defintly the most "poly" I ever hear.

 

[Kirran]

I told you how Abrahamic religion deal with worship idols.

I'm talking about mental idols.

Anyway, worship of Jesus in form is widespread in Christianity!

Yes it's dishonest if you was pretend that YOU ignore that atheists adopt abiogenesis as argument to deny God creation.

Doesn't seem a very solid one, if I believe in both.

Is worshiping formes of God or Gods.

OK, this is an issue of English understanding. You are translating shirk as polytheism, I think? That isn't an accurate translation. Polytheism means worshipping more than one god. That's it. It has nothing to do with forms and idols.

I believe that belief of Tawhid is minority even among the Sufis.

This Sufi DIR, ask them
http://www.religiousforums.com/forums/islamic-sufism-dir.267/

I dunno, I know it ain't universal but I think it is the deeper teaching in pretty much all tariqats. I don't think we have any Sufis, and I have no reason to ask them when I've already been told this by Sufi sheikhs, by friends of mine and by reading from Sufi authors. A few people who might show up to answer on an Internet forum aren't gonna sway me either way, given the people I've already got this information from.

 

[Kirran]

This is explanation why it's impossible.

This video begins with a basic misunderstanding. It says you need fully-formed protein first. This isn't in line with our understanding. So everything else it says doesn't mean much after that.

Kirran did not seperate creation from God,everything is God to him, that defintly the most "poly" I ever hear.

Surely the opposite! You believe in 1) God and 2) Creation. I believe only in 1) God. You believe in more than one thing, I believe only in God!

 

[Valjean]

If you want to believe in lie, that your problem.
theory abiogenesis is not fact.

But doesn't Islam teach that abiogenesis is fact; that God created life from non-life?

 

[Godobeyer]

I'm talking about mental idols.

Anyway, worship of Jesus in form is widespread in Christianity!

Yes believing Jesus(pbuh) as God, is polytheism, depend how Christians deal with.

But I think they consider you as polytheism.

Doesn't seem a very solid one, if I believe in both.

I know that you believe in both.
That's not my point, but you know for sure that atheists used as denying creation of God ?

OK, this is an issue of English understanding. You are translating shirk as polytheism, I think? That isn't an accurate translation. Polytheism means worshipping more than one god. That's it. It has nothing to do with forms and idols.

In Islam view polytheim or idolatry both association with God

Shirk:
https://translate.google.com/#ar/en/الشرك

I dunno, I know it ain't universal but I think it is the deeper teaching in pretty much all tariqats. I don't think we have any Sufis, and I have no reason to ask them when I've already been told this by Sufi sheikhs, by friends of mine and by reading from Sufi authors. A few people who might show up to answer on an Internet forum aren't gonna sway me either way, given the people I've already got this information from

Your friend don't represent the majority.

So that's your problem not mind.

 

[Godobeyer]

But doesn't Islam teach that abiogenesis is fact; that God created life from non-life?

God not abiogenesis.

 

[McBell]

If you want to believe in lie, that your problem.
theory abiogenesis is not fact.

If you want to believe in lie, that your problem.
Creation is not fact.

 

[Kirran]

Yes believing Jesus(pbuh) as God, is polytheism, depend how Christians deal with.

But I think they consider you as polytheism.

Why would they? If they have any sense, they'd hear me say 'I believe in one God' and declare me not a polytheist. If they understood English, of course!

Mental idols are far more insidious, anyway.

I know that you believe in both.
That's not my point, but you know for sure that atheists used as denying creation of God ?

Maybe some give it a try, but it doesn't make much sense to do so. Valjean raises a good point, too!

In Islam view polytheim or idolatry both association with God

Shirk:
https://translate.google.com/#ar/en/الشرك

https://translate.google.com/#ar/en/الشرك

Maybe so. But that doesn't mean they're the same thing. In English, the term polytheism has a specific meaning. The term idolatry has a specific meaning. These meanings are not the same.

Your friend don't represent the majority.

So that's your problem not mind.

I don't see why it would be a problem. Are the beliefs of the majority necessarily correct? Or can a minority be wrong?

Are you familiar with the concept of waḥdat al-wujūd? This is one of the two Sufi philosophical streams, and relates to the unity of existence as God. We find the first writings testifying to this understanding dating back to the 7th century, having been written by Husayn ibn Ali, grandson of the Prophet.

 

[Godobeyer]

]This video begins with a basic misunderstanding. It says you need fully-formed protein first. This isn't in line with our understanding. So everything else it says doesn't mean much after that.

I watched the video, you don't reach the knowlegde of that guy, and you can't deny the fact he tells.

Surely the opposite! You believe in 1) God and 2) Creation. I believe only in 1) God. You believe in more than one thing, I believe only in God!

You believe everything is God.

just like saying: man producing cars , you called everything "cars" is man.
Not man made.

There is big different between cars and man.
cars are NOT man. its made by man.

 

[Godobeyer]

If you want to believe in lie, that your problem.
Creation is not fact.

Well done !
I just find it's hypocrisy that you recieve "creative" from @Kirran ,when he always defend about creation.

 

[Kirran]

I watched the video, you don't reach the knowlegde of that guy, and you can't deny the fact he tells.

I can very easily deny what he's saying when he talks nonsense. He bases his arguments on the idea that you need a fully-formed protein to emerge spontaneously for life to emerge through purely chemical means. This isn't correct, as existing models have proteins largely becoming associated with self-replicating organic molecules following the association of RNA and lipids.

Do you understand any of what I just said?

You believe everything is God.

just like saying: man producing cars , you called everything "cars" is man.
Not man made.

There is big different between cars and man.
cars are NOT man. its made by man.

Haha!

All power is God's, all praise is due to God, all existence is God's.

None of God's attributes are like our attributes, right? Which means that if God exists, then we cannot, or we'd possess the attribute of existence alongside God. So our existence must be God's existence only, making everything God.

 

[Kirran]

@Mestemia, I don't understand what the point he tried to communicate there was, but maybe you do.

 

[McBell]

Well done !
I just find it's hypocrisy that you recieve "creative" from @Kirran ,when he always defend about creation.

You will have to reword the above quoted post.
It makes no sense in its current form.

 

[McBell]

@Mestemia, I don't understand what the point he tried to communicate there was, but maybe you do.

I suspect it is nothing more than self reassurance.
The reason I go with self reassurance is because even though I give him crap about dishonesty from time to time, I honestly do not believe he is intentionally trying to deceive others.
Just himself

 

[Godobeyer]

Why would they? If they have any sense, they'd hear me say 'I believe in one God' and declare me not a polytheist. If they understood English, of course!

I explain it manytimes.

I will skipp this .

I don't see why it would be a problem. Are the beliefs of the majority necessarily correct? Or can a minority be wrong?

Are you familiar with the concept of waḥdat al-wujūd? This is one of the two Sufi philosophical streams, and relates to the unity of existence as God. We find the first writings testifying to this understanding dating back to the 7th century, having been written by Husayn ibn Ali, grandson of the Prophet.

Do you think is fair that 0,01% is could be a reference for 99,99% ?

 

[Godobeyer]

I suspect it is nothing more than self reassurance.
The reason I go with self reassurance is because even though I give him crap about dishonesty from time to time, I honestly do not believe he is intentionally trying to deceive others.
Just himself

You recieve in post #588Mestemia, 13 minutes ago a "like" from @Kirran .

I find @Kirran is hypocrite, because he believe in creation is fact.

 

[Kirran]

I explain it manytimes.

I will skipp this .

English lesson - Polytheism = belief in multiple gods.
Idolatry = the worship of idols.

Do you think is fair that 0,01% is could be a reference for 99,99% ?

No, that wouldn't be fair. But seeing as this is a concept dating back at least to the grandson of the Prophet, and seeing as it's a concept that's solidly in the mainstream for Muslims in many parts of the world, that percentage is nonsensical. The majority of Muslims in many countries, including the UK, are Sufi, and the Unity of Existence is very much in the mainstream in Sufi understandings. Also, why are we referencing people against each other? Variation exists.

 

[Kirran]

You recieve in post #588Mestemia, 13 minutes ago a "like" from @Kirran .

I find @Kirran is hypocrite, because he believe in creation is fact.

I labelled it 'creative', not because I agreed with the words but because I respected his attempt to show you the emptiness of your own logic.

 

[McBell]

You recieve in post #588Mestemia, 13 minutes ago a "like" from @Kirran .

I find @Kirran is hypocrite, because he believe in creation is fact.

That is because you do not understand what post #588 is saying.