Do You Think Muslims Are Violent?

[Woodrow LI]

I think we need to stop defending and coddling the attitude that insults to a religion should be met with violence and death, or that such responses are understandable or otherwise excusable. You do not have the right not to be offended. That's just the way it is and freedom of expression is more important than protecting your feelings. Christianity is mocked on a daily basis in the West and Jesus is subjected to rather disgusting levels of mockery and hatred. But you don't see Christians forming violent mobs and killing people when it happens, and Christ is our God, unlike how Islam views Muhammad as a mere prophet. We don't like it, but God will deal with those people as He sees fit. We are to just bear it with charity, grace and perseverance. Why can't Muslims do the same? Why do Muslims murder people when they're only suspected of somehow blaspheming Islam? Why did a mob of 1,200 Muslims in Pakistan see fit to beat and burn to death a defenseless Christian couple (who were also slaves, by the way, and the woman was 4 months pregnant) merely because they were accused of defacing a Qur'an? Why is a book more valued than human life in Islam?

I agree. But I also believe people should abide by the laws of the land they are in or get their tails out. I do not agree with the laws in Pakistan and therefore I keep my tail out of Pakistan.

The horrible case in Pakistan about that couple was in violation of both Islamic and Pakistani law. Pakistan is very close to being in anarchy if it has not already passed the line. My own prediction is Pakistan will soon cease being an independent Nation, I foresee that very soon probably within 20 years it will succumb to China, Iran and India. for vitually it's entire short history the government has been corrupt and inept.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I agree. But I also believe people should abide by the laws of the land they are in or get their tails out. I do not agree with the laws in Pakistan and therefore I keep my tail out of Pakistan.

The horrible case in Pakistan about that couple was in violation of both Islamic and Pakistani law. Pakistan is very close to being in anarchy if it has not already passed the line. My own prediction is Pakistan will soon cease being an independent Nation, I foresee that very soon probably within 20 years it will succumb to China, Iran and India. for vitually it's entire short history the government has been corrupt and inept.

The Christian couple were natives of Pakistan and couldn't just leave the country, so that doesn't solve that particular issue. You didn't answer my questions, though. How could such a thing happen among Muslims in the first place? Why are we seeing the same behavior throughout the globe from Muslims? Even Muslims from the West, some of whom are born and raised in a Western nation, are beheading, attacking and otherwise mistreating others who they see as violating their religious beliefs.

 

[Woodrow LI]

No, it isn't. That's why we have a Constitution and Supreme Court that can rule laws voted in as unconstitutional.

Which in turn were/are the result of majority consent.

 

[Woodrow LI]

The Christian couple were natives of Pakistan and couldn't just leave the country, so that doesn't solve that particular issue. You didn't answer my questions, though. How could such a thing happen among Muslims in the first place? Why are we seeing the same behavior throughout the globe from Muslims? Even Muslims from the West, some of whom are born and raised in a Western nation, are beheading, attacking and otherwise mistreating others who they see as violating their religious beliefs.

Then even though it was unfair their only option was to be certain they did not offend their neighbors. I do not know if they could have done so. But not very long ago Christians were very much tolerated in Pakistan. I can recall when Christianity was very welcome in Pakistan. . See HERE

What I see as the cause of Radical and violent Muslims is not Islam but a lack of following Islam as many Muslims no longer follow Islam and are taking matters into their own hands.

The Western world especially the USA is now despised by much of the world, not just the Islamic Nations. Getting back to the animosity towards America it seems to escalated because of 9/11, the view of many people seems to be that the US devastated the Islamic Nations because of a crime committed by 17 individuals. It is like all Muslims were put on trial and convicted for 9/11.

To much of the world Christianity has come to represent America. Perhaps because nearly every Christian Evangelist is an American.

But I suspect that to understand what is happening in Pakistan we have to gain an understanding of Pakistan. Something I am not capable of doing. I can't even understand Pakistani Jokes and to a large degree I am at a loss as to how what I once knew as very peaceful people became so violent. If I had any answers I'd probably be in Washington DC establishing foreign policy instead of being an old retired man in rural North Dakota.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then even though it was unfair their only option was to be certain they did not offend their neighbors.

Really? You're seriously blaming the victims? It's their fault they were brutally murdered in cold blood by a pack of demons?

What I see as the cause of Radical and violent Muslims is not Islam but a lack of following Islam as many Muslims no longer follow Islam and are taking matters into their own hands.

Not following Islam? Where in the world are you getting that from? Seems to me that they're practicing Islam very stridently!

The Western world especially the USA is now despised by much of the world, not just the Islamic Nations. Getting back to the animosity towards America it seems to escalated because of 9/11, the view of many people seems to be that the US devastated the Islamic Nations because of a crime committed by 17 individuals. It is like all Muslims were put on trial and convicted for 9/11.

To much of the world Christianity has come to represent America. Perhaps because nearly every Christian Evangelist is an American.

What does a woman being stoned to death for adultery in Somalia, honor killings, child brides, sex slavery, persecution of Christians in Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan, etc. have to do with America? Nothing. The only constant in Muslim acts of violence and persecution are Muslims. America cannot be blamed for all of these examples.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Really? You're seriously blaming the victims? It's their fault they were brutally murdered in cold blood by a pack of demons?



Not following Islam? Where in the world are you getting that from? Seems to me that they're practicing Islam very stridently!



What does a woman being stoned to death for adultery in Somalia, honor killings, child brides, sex slavery, persecution of Christians in Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan, etc. have to do with America? Nothing. The only constant in Muslim acts of violence and persecution are Muslims. America cannot be blamed for all of these examples.

I guess I am not very good at communicating my thoughts. None of that is what I intended

I am not blming the couple. I was attempting to show they were stuck in a hobsons choice. Which is why I said "I do not know if they could have done so"

In my opinion they are not following Islam. At least not what I know as Islam

While there are atrocities in virtually every nation the Majority of Atrocities by Muslims are in the Mideast and Pakistan, Both of which have considerable anger towards the US.

How common are stonings of women in Somalia? I find 3 cases, all three done by Taliban or al-Qaeda and not in a legal Sharia court. Child Brides are illegal in most Islamic Nations and in the ones it is legal it often is symbolic and not intended to ever be consummated. Marriage in Islam does not mean the same as Marriage in the western world. It is not uncommon for it to be for the purpose of uniting families with no intent of it ever being consummated. In Islam if a marriage is not consumatted with 3 months it can be voided by the paticipants. I do know that in Pakistan it is common for girls to be married as infants but they usually will never meet their husband and the girl voids the contract when she reaches maturity without ever seeing her "Husband". Sex slavery does happen and is common but it is neither legal nor condoned by Islam. I am convinced the Persecution of Christians is the result of hatred towards America, not because of Islam. I do not know both sides of the story so I have no idea if the hatred is justified.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I guess I am not very good at communicating my thoughts. None of that is what I intended

I am not blming the couple. I was attempting to show they were stuck in a hobsons choice. Which is why I said "I do not know if they could have done so"

In my opinion they are not following Islam. At least not what I know as Islam

While there are atrocities in virtually every nation the Majority of Atrocities by Muslims are in the Mideast and Pakistan, Both of which have considerable anger towards the US.

How common are stonings of women in Somalia? I find 3 cases, all three done by Taliban or al-Qaeda and not in a legal Sharia court. Child Brides are illegal in most Islamic Nations and in the ones it is legal it often is symbolic and not intended to ever be consummated. Marriage in Islam does not mean the same as Marriage in the western world. It is not uncommon for it to be for the purpose of uniting families with no intent of it ever being consummated. In Islam if a marriage is not consumatted with 3 months it can be voided by the paticipants. I do know that in Pakistan it is common for girls to be married as infants but they usually will never meet their husband and the girl voids the contract when she reaches maturity without ever seeing her "Husband". Sex slavery does happen and is common but it is neither legal nor condoned by Islam. I am convinced the Persecution of Christians is the result of hatred towards America, not because of Islam. I do not know both sides of the story so I have no idea if the hatred is justified.

Excuses, excuses. But they all fail. Muslims have been persecuting Christians and other groups in those areas since before the US existed. You cannot blame America for those things! The only answer that makes sense is that something is wrong with Islam and it is an extremely serious issue that needs to be addressed. In fact, it's the most serious issue of our time.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Excuses, excuses. But they all fail. Muslims have been persecuting Christians and other groups in those areas since before the US existed. You cannot blame America for those things! The only answer that makes sense is that something is wrong with Islam and it is an extremely serious issue that needs to be addressed. In fact, it's the most serious issue of our time.

What do you think needs fixing and how would yo suggest fixing it.

Islam is very individual and has no central organization. There are no ordained clergy, there are no central religious leaders. It is all about individual relationships with God(swt). Islam would still exist if every Mosque, and Qur'an were destroyed and if every Imam were killed.

 

[icehorse]

What do you think needs fixing and how would yo suggest fixing it.

Islam is very individual and has no central organization. There are no ordained clergy, there are no central religious leaders. It is all about individual relationships with God(swt). Islam would still exist if every Mosque, and Qur'an were destroyed and if every Imam were killed.

Woodrow, I believe you when you say that's true for you. But across 1400 years and spanning the globe and many, many cultures we see Muslims believing what Islamic doctrine tells them to believe.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Some believe that Islam is the religion of the spiritual
But the fact that Islam is not a religion, but a spiritual colonial expansionist and racist
They say that Islam seeks justice
Is there justic e in Islamic societies
Islam believes that the Muslim is "the first result and dhimmi no human being full is a second-class citizen
Many believe that a Muslim can dialogue with others
Islamlaithaurwith others
He believes that the best religion
Islamis aracist
The Muslimis alwaysa terroristproject
All the timecan be convertedinto a terrorist Muslim moderate
Do you know why
Because the Qur'an is that make it a first class
Each verse of the Qur'ancombat
Terrorist school alone
The best any terrorist and fought who don't they believe in God and the last day
This verse makes one think of Muslim power and seeks to Jihad
Any law of the with stand this verse
With beautiful mermaids paradise
I think that any attempt to say that the Muslim man free seeds of terrorism are wrong
The average personcarries the seeds ofcrime
But Muslim carries with it the seeds of terrorism
Brought up the baby from him and from the verses of the Qur'an
Permission of crime different from terrorism
Crime is because such as greed and money
And women and power
But Islamic terrorism is to spread Islam by force
Soall religionto God
This is Islam and Muslims
MuslimStates not Muslim practiced taqiyya
Like the Saudicolleague present among us
Instrumentof peace
And no! wantto tell usthat the Quranordered himtofightall
This is the hadeeth of Muhammad
God told me to fight with the people
This will keep fighting the Muslim Sharia Muslim will carry the seed of terrorism '

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I am froma country named Iraq
But do you know what it means to be a Christian in Iraq
This means you live in constant fear of Muslim
When away from the Muslim religioncan live with him
But when he returns to his religion, thinking about verses become a human being be unable to live with him
I speak from personal experience and historical
When the Turkish massacres of Armenians committed
Committed to repeal theChristian presence
When the Assyrians were killed and butchered in the SMIL Christianity
Today, killing and deporting Christians
In Mosul
Do you think that the Americans are doing this
Or you think thatChristians want to presentitto the teachings of Islam
That they blossomed again
It'steachings of Islam
Saddam Hussein was a lawfor everyone
And it was at massawa 80 per cent
But after the martyrdom of Saddam Hussein says the Islamists
And with them the laws of Islam
Look what they did
I speak of the tragedy
Yes No Muslim Is lammanawesome
But Muslim with human
People sick with hatred and grudge

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

When absent the teachings of Islam in a country people feel justice
And liberty
But when the ruling Islamists lose sight of all the concepts of Justice and liberty
Longstothe freedom ofthe West
But when they go there they dream in the bondage of Islam
Because their minds to know freedom
Andbe unabletodigestvalues of tolerance
Therefore they they confine oneself and wearing the hijab and Niqab
They say that their religion is a religion of tolerance
Whileactuallysaysthey don't knowtolerance
They'rehumanstructures
Don't knowbutthe word of God
And the word of God is to hate and fight
For that I see in every Muslim seed of terror
These seeds are the teachings of the Koran

 

[Smart_Guy]

You will make a good Islamists recruiter because you give hope to the people who are looking for a religion of peace. Obviously your prayer is different because you want the infidels you are converting to live so they can be recruited. The Quran offers such exemptions when "death to the infidel" is counter-intuitive.

Bla bla

Watch out BEHIND YOU.... BOOOOM!

That was someone I recruited LOL.

Try making some sense, well ya

The thing is SG, it was not of nowhere. It was a satirical political cartoon that accurately portrayed something real. Satire is a form of criticism that would not work at all if there weren't some truth under the exaggeration. Here we have a saying you may be familiar with, "If the shoe fits, wear it". It is a short way of saying "If somebody says something bad about you, don't take it seriously if it isn't true. But if it is..." The Danish cartoon doesn't mean that all Muslims are dangerously violent, but he was pointedly criticizing the ones who are. They have been very much in the news lately.

In a bitter irony, the Muslims proved him correct. Muslims carried those cartoons around the globe instigating violence. There were riots, murder attempts. Danish people and businesses and embassies were targeted simply because they were Danish, even though the cartoon was the work of one guy and published by one magazine. Surely you see the irony of complaining that the cartoon unfairly targets all Muslims to justify the violence committed against anybody who happens to be Danish?

Tom

But not all Muslims are violent, because Muslims around me and I are not and didn't react to the cartoons, so Muslims did not prove him correct. I didn't say that Muslims don't have violent ones and I didn't say there are not many of them. I actually know that Muslims have many crazies. My argument is simply that the publisher ended up insulting me and other peaceful Muslims.

With your comment you included me in that group of evil Muslims, my friend . Until now I still buy Danish products and appreciate the manufacturers for it.

I mainly don't blame the publisher for the atrocities those Muslims did. I blame them for it.

I gathered that the images that did the most damage were cooked up by a bunch of imams who travelled around causing trouble and were not part of the original publication. (Where did the Pakistani mobs get all those Danish flags?)

Perhaps you can help me here. Who are imams? Why do they seem to so often cause trouble? Are they really experts on islam?

I honestly do not know what's the Western reference for imam. But yes, generally speaking, most damage was because of some stupid Muslims spreading (I don't say originally drawing them, for now) the images with some stupid speeches they added to the mix, resulting in having crazy violent mobs gathering doing things.

Imam is actually an Arabic word what we call a person for leading Muslims in a group prayer (like the 5 prayers a day), no more no less. It seems some stupid Muslims think imams are gods because of that so they ask them stupids questions and those imams like it and spew fatwas as they wish. I think this is where it all started. Not really sure.

I could be an imam without me knowing. In Islam, physical prayers can be joined by others by praying with a person that started praying alone. If you look at any prayer in Makkah sanctuary (around kaaba) you will find one person leading and the others follow. That person is the one that makes all of those people gather in an organized order doing the same thing together almost in the same time. Millions of people. I think this is another possible reason why this word "imam" is used.

Or maybe some non Arab Muslims screwed things up using this word? Dunno. But generally it does happen all time and I see funny samples of it here where I live.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I also heard that the most offensive cartoons were made up by the imams themselves. But I never had solid sources for that.

Tom

I actually don't disagree with you there. There are indeed crazy Muslims that It is not unexpected of them to do such atrocity. But you do have a strong point that it is still not proven yet. It is still possible tho.

Believe it or not, even among Muslims those bunch give us serious trouble. Even us Muslims call them terrorists.

 

[Smart_Guy]

The imams are Islamic religious leaders who could not find child brides to marry because the younger Muslim men get first pick. Out of bitterness they encourage the younger Muslim men to become jihadist so they will get their 72 virgins in paradise and leave the young girls for the older men. Every jihadists can be traced back to an Imam.

And I thought I was crazy!

 

[Smart_Guy]

Yes. The issue is that the attack wasn't on the people who just go about living their lives, or even just on the people who deserve death for the atrocities they commit daily - it was an attack on the concept of holding something as simple as imagery in such high regard. It was a point that the cartoonist wanted to make and had every right to do so, in a form as simple as satire.

There are literally thousands, probably tens of thousands, of political satire cartoons produced every single day. Should we refrain from ever creating political cartoons because members of certain political parties don't have a thick enough skin to deal with it, let it roll off their back, and get on with their lives?

Type in the words "Jesus Meme" into google image search and you'll get nearly 1,000,000 hits, most of which are irreverent. Should no one ever make joking Jesus references because some people just can't handle it?

People who like big trucks make fun of people who like small cars.
People who eat meat make fun of people who choose to be vegetarian.
People who like guns make fun of pacifists.
People who like bright colors make fun of people who only wear dark colors.
(And vice versa on every single account like this)

So what?
This is how society works. Jarring is a very human part of social construction. Satire and mockery, and yes even to the point of insult, are part of who we are. I actually just finished a fairly heated argument with a friend of mine over a theological debate. At the end of the debate - nothing changed for either of us - I think he's an idiot for some of the beliefs that he holds and he probably thinks I'm a hateful little ****, but so what? We're still buds. We're still gonna have lunch with each other tomorrow. We still respect each other. The only difference that divides us, and that we make fun of in each other, is one.

What the cartoonists, and anyone who produces satire is mocking, is an individual aspect of what he views as an outdated belief that is, according to you, very widely held in the Muslim world. If he knew full well that it would be an image that would reach even the furthest parts of the world, and generate a conversation about the usefulness of the idea of the sanctity of a religious figure, then he kind of did what he wanted to do, didn't he?

If people weren't so overly sensitive about something that, at the end of the day, isn't even that big of a deal, then the images would stop being created.

When's the last time that someone made a political cartoon about Marie Antoinette?

See what I mean?

The fact that there is this much conversation about a cartoon from a long time ago shows how pervasive and sensitive the issue is - and we're just talking about a damn cartoon, which, as I mentioned earlier, is really the simplest thing ever and not a big deal whatsoever - yet here we are.

Don't worry about it. Opinions and views differ.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Bla bla

Watch out BEHIND YOU.... BOOOOM!

That was someone I recruited LOL.

Try making some sense, well ya



But not all Muslims are violent, because Muslims around me and I are not and didn't react to the cartoons, so Muslims did not prove him correct. I didn't say that Muslims don't have violent ones and I didn't say there are not many of them. I actually know that Muslims have many crazies. My argument is simply that the publisher ended up insulting me and other peaceful Muslims.

With your comment you included me in that group of evil Muslims, my friend . Until now I still buy Danish products and appreciate the manufacturers for it.

I mainly don't blame the publisher for the atrocities those Muslims did. I blame them for it.



I honestly do not know what's the Western reference for imam. But yes, generally speaking, most damage was because of some stupid Muslims spreading (I don't say originally drawing them, for now) the images with some stupid speeches they added to the mix, resulting in having crazy violent mobs gathering doing things.

Imam is actually an Arabic word what we call a person for leading Muslims in a group prayer (like the 5 prayers a day), no more no less. It seems some stupid Muslims think imams are gods because of that so they ask them stupids questions and those imams like it and spew fatwas as they wish. I think this is where it all started. Not really sure.

I could be an imam without me knowing. In Islam, physical prayers can be joined by others by praying with a person that started praying alone. If you look at any prayer in Makkah sanctuary (around kaaba) you will find one person leading and the others follow. That person is the one that makes all of those people gather in an organized order doing the same thing together almost in the same time. Millions of people. I think this is another possible reason why this word "imam" is used.

Or maybe some non Arab Muslims screwed things up using this word? Dunno. But ge
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[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Why you fight art Muslims
Do you knowwhat is art
And I mean the art of drawing
The art of paintingis to transfe rwords into picturesis like hieroglyphs
You want to build a House
Go to the engineer and tell him I want to my beta
Engineersays you type me what you want
She tells him land area 200 m I want to be where the four rooms and bathrooms and garden
And the decoration of the Chinese type
The engineer will transfe r your key wordsto a picture
And provided by you
Danish painter did this
It is the readers of the Qur'an and hadiths
Readers of the Angel came to Muhammad and is between the thighs of Khadija
Acall transferto a picture
So what'swrong wit ht his
And why do you want intellectual terrorism
The world mustknowthat the killing ofan Islamistintellectualterrorismmeansart
Danishartistvery brave
Transfer thewords ofthe Quranto thelive picture
For example how Muhammad married fromZeinab
It isabeautiful picturetoZainab
Zainabishis beautifulbeautiful
And painted in a tent
Man speaks with
In the third image has become her bridegroom
And the Lord of the worlds Knitter
Is thisadefect
It is the largest means of spreading Islam by Word and image, my friend smart Jaya

 

[Looncall]

I don't say muslims are violent.I am not judging anyone.I just wonder general perception about muslims.

I would like to suggest an analogy.

Suppose your neighbour has a dog of a dangerous breed. It may be a good, friendly dog you are on good terms with. You might feel happy patting the dog and giving it treats, but you would not let your young children play with it.

With the numerous verses in the quran that express antipathy toward non-muslims, and by extension toward muslims of a different sect, there is always the potential for violence from muslims. Given how thin-skinned many muslims seem to be, one can never be sure what might provoke an extreme reaction. Who would have imagined that a few cartoons would lead to rioting and murder?

 

[Looncall]

I am an Imam and I am not an expert on Islam. But I am able to lead the obligatory prayers which is all that is required of an Imam. Typically the Imam will be the oldest person present at prayer time. With my bad luck for living so dang long that is often me. There are no ordained clergy in Islam. All Muslims are equal and considered to be clergy.

As we have no ordained clergy the media seems to assume that any idiot who supports aggression and terrorism speaks as an authority for all Muslims. Those of us who speak of peace and tolerance are no more news worthy than yesterdays chopped liver.

Thanks for your helpful reply.

I am still puzzled. I have often seen imams referred to as the chief authority at mosques, for example, and as leading muslim factions. Are there any qualifications required for such roles?