Do You Think Muslims Are Violent?

[Harikrish]

Harikrish said: ↑
What you have not elaborated is what the other Muslim guy who prays 5 times a day is praying for. "Death to the infidels". There is no other side to a Muslim. Muslims who can read the Quran and the 800 million illiterate Muslims who cannot are all following the same illiterate prophet. It is the illiterate prophet Mohammad that is common to all Muslims plus the desire to marry underage girls or child brides as they call it.

Every single detail you have there is wrong. For one at least, I pray at least 5 times a day and it is never about the death of anyone. Sorry to disappoint.

You will make a good Islamists recruiter because you give hope to the people who are looking for a religion of peace. Obviously your prayer is different because you want the infidels you are converting to live so they can be recruited. The Quran offers such exemptions when "death to the infidel" is counter-intuitive.

 

[columbus]

This is your opinion and I respect that. But we are talking about insulting Muslims here, insulting people. Out of no where some publisher insulted the human father figure of Islam knowing very will it offends Muslims. Denmark has Muslims too. They did it just like that, out of no where, just for fun. Is this the freedom of offense you advocate and support? Islam is a religion that has no feelings. At that time all there was some Muslims in Denmark living their lives normally then came that publisher and insulted their father for no reason.

Honestly, if the intentions of the publisher was just for pure humor and comic relief, believe me, I would not mind it at all. Then they will have done it without knowing it was an insult to Muslims. But the thing is, they perfectly knew that. Actually even with that, they should have been left alone without those angry Muslims revolting like they did. But oh well, unfortunately it already happened.

The thing is SG, it was not of nowhere. It was a satirical political cartoon that accurately portrayed something real. Satire is a form of criticism that would not work at all if there weren't some truth under the exaggeration. Here we have a saying you may be familiar with, "If the shoe fits, wear it". It is a short way of saying "If somebody says something bad about you, don't take it seriously if it isn't true. But if it is..." The Danish cartoon doesn't mean that all Muslims are dangerously violent, but he was pointedly criticizing the ones who are. They have been very much in the news lately.

In a bitter irony, the Muslims proved him correct. Muslims carried those cartoons around the globe instigating violence. There were riots, murder attempts. Danish people and businesses and embassies were targeted simply because they were Danish, even though the cartoon was the work of one guy and published by one magazine. Surely you see the irony of complaining that the cartoon unfairly targets all Muslims to justify the violence committed against anybody who happens to be Danish?

Tom

 

[RAYYAN]

The Good Doctor seems to be doing a little misrepresenting.

That was why I kept asking him for his reference that I never got

 

[columbus]

The Good Doctor seems to be doing a little misrepresenting. Sort of like he is ignoring that over 3/4 of the word's Muslims are in Just 6 countries. Using the map in the Link you might notice that the only nations with a literacy rate of less than 50% are in Africa and the Mideast.

While it is true that is were nearly all the Muslims nations are, it only contains about 25% of the World's Muslims. If you look over to the Asian Nations you will find the literacy rates to be Much higher. The vast Majority of Muslims are Asiatic and from Asian Nations.

I do not know what Dr Salem's problem is but he seems to be ignoring the Asiatic Muslims in compiling his figures. His own "Proof" seems to discredit his claim that 800 Million Muslims are illiterate.

Maybe the problems are the result of defining "literacy" differently in different places. But I can say for a fact that the rate in the USA on this map is very wrong. I've worked with literacy groups and at least 10% of USonians are functionally illiterate. They might recognize a few words and names when written out, but can't manage a restaurant menu or medicine label.
So I don't know how that would play out in undeveloped countries.

Tom

 

[YmirGF]

The thing is SG, it was not of nowhere. It was a satirical political cartoon that accurately portrayed something real. Satire is a form of criticism that would not work at all if there weren't some truth under the exaggeration. Here we have a saying you may be familiar with, "If the shoe fits, wear it". It is a short way of saying "If somebody says something bad about you, don't take it seriously if it isn't true. But if it is..." The Danish cartoon doesn't mean that all Muslims are dangerously violent, but he was pointedly criticizing the ones who are. They have been very much in the news lately.

In a bitter irony, the Muslims proved him correct. Muslims carried those cartoons around the globe instigating violence. There were riots, murder attempts. Danish people and businesses and embassies were targeted simply because they were Danish, even though the cartoon was the work of one guy and published by one magazine. Surely you see the irony of complaining that the cartoon unfairly targets all Muslims to justify the violence committed against anybody who happens to be Danish?

Tom

That's pretty much what I'm thinking, Columbus. I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that all Muslims are violent. That's just silly, but there is an especially virulent form of Islam taking hold in various areas that needs to be eradicated. The problem is that there is no official body that can condemn these folks that has any real clout over them. If you don't like one Iman, just find another who is closer to your thinking and all...

In your example of the cartoons and the turmoil they caused underscores the validity of those very cartoons. I don't see how any peaceful Muslims could think that they are directed at themselves. In my mind, even to be offended by such cartoons indicates that the person who is offended is a bit more extreme than they are letting on.

 

[Harikrish]

The Good Doctor seems to be doing a little misrepresenting. Sort of like he is ignoring that over 3/4 of the word's Muslims are in Just 6 countries. Using the map in the Link you might notice that the only nations with a literacy rate of less than 50% are in Africa and the Mideast.

While it is true that is were nearly all the Muslims nations are, it only contains about 25% of the World's Muslims. If you look over to the Asian Nations you will find the literacy rates to be Much higher. The vast Majority of Muslims are Asiatic and from Asian Nations.

I do not know what Dr Salem's problem is but he seems to be ignoring the Asiatic Muslims in compiling his figures. His own "Proof" seems to discredit his claim that 800 Million Muslims are illiterate.

You should read: Muslim Statistics (Education & Employment). It supports Dr Salem's claims.
Muslim Statistics (Education and Employment) - WikiIslam

Nearly one in three people in the Arab world is illiterate, including nearly half of all women in the region, the Tunis-based Arab League Educational Cultural and Scientific Organisation (Alecso) said Monday.
Three-quarters of the 100 million people unable to read or write in the 21 Arab countries are aged between 15 and 45 years old, Alecso said in a statement.

Equally alarming, some 46.5% of women in the region are illiterate, the organisation reported, urging governments to put the fight against illiteracy at the top of their agendas.[8]

In Saudi Arabia, the lack of books is accompanied by the struggle to modernize basic educational institutions. In his new book, Prophets and Princes, Mark Weston points out that Saudi Arabia did not have a high school until after 1930, and its first girls’ school was established after 1950. The Saudis have only 250 public libraries to serve a population of 26 million people, and there were no hours for female readers until 2006. The Saudis spend many millions of dollars translating and publishing the Quran into other languages, without devoting similar efforts to making foreign books available in Arabic.[2]
2008

 

[icehorse]

Sometimes rights require limits. My right to swing my arms stops when my hand hits my neighbors nose.

All I'm talking about is the criticism of ideas. Very different than physical violence. So let's turn this around, what's an idea that you think should be above criticism?

 

[RAYYAN]

You should read: Muslim Statistics (Education & Employment). It supports Dr Salem's claims.
Muslim Statistics (Education and Employment) - WikiIslam

Nearly one in three people in the Arab world is illiterate, including nearly half of all women in the region, the Tunis-based Arab League Educational Cultural and Scientific Organisation (Alecso) said Monday.
Three-quarters of the 100 million people unable to read or write in the 21 Arab countries are aged between 15 and 45 years old, Alecso said in a statement.

Equally alarming, some 46.5% of women in the region are illiterate, the organisation reported, urging governments to put the fight against illiteracy at the top of their agendas.[8]

In Saudi Arabia, the lack of books is accompanied by the struggle to modernize basic educational institutions. In his new book, Prophets and Princes, Mark Weston points out that Saudi Arabia did not have a high school until after 1930, and its first girls’ school was established after 1950. The Saudis have only 250 public libraries to serve a population of 26 million people, and there were no hours for female readers until 2006. The Saudis spend many millions of dollars translating and publishing the Quran into other languages, without devoting similar efforts to making foreign books available in Arabic.[2]
2008

nice one using and anti-Islam website as a source. Why should we trust that website?

 

[Harikrish]

nice one using and anti-Islam website as a source. Why should we trust that website?

Islamists have tried using the Quran as the source. But with so few Muslims who can read Arabic and with 800 million illiterate Muslims, other solutions were sought.
But all sources outside of the Quran including the Hadith's are considered anti-Islam. So independent sources such as the link provided are all that is available to educated Muslims.
Muslim Statistics (Education and Employment) - WikiIslam

 

[Looncall]

They knew very well it insults ALL Muslims worldwide, the good and the bad, including the ones mentioned in the first half of the last paragraph you said above. Instead of attacking and insulting the Muslims really making the trouble they decided to insult ALL Muslims world wide. That generalization was out of the blue against all Muslims, and who denies it, is an almost completely ignorant of what's REALLY going on in the globe. I go about my business, pray 5 times a day and just live my life, yet they knew very well that what they did is an insult even to me. I'm from Saudi Arabia and the insult reached me. This kinda guy is a Muslim too that highly cares for Prophet Muhammad. And that is a fact.

They chose an approach that generalizes all Muslims. We all know negative behavioral generalization of very big numbers of humans is an act of the uneducated both scientifically and ethically/morally.

But anyways, I kinda feel they tried to target the troublesome Muslims thinking that ALL Muslims are of that kind because of them. I kinda don't blame them for it, even tho I just believe what they did was wrong. I understand how people would feel about Muslims world wide not knowing that good Muslims like @DawudTalut @Woodrow LI @TashaN and some others (I apologize for missing the) do actually exist. I believe Denmark did not completely deserve the boycott they had from Muslims.

I gathered that the images that did the most damage were cooked up by a bunch of imams who travelled around causing trouble and were not part of the original publication. (Where did the Pakistani mobs get all those Danish flags?)

Perhaps you can help me here. Who are imams? Why do they seem to so often cause trouble? Are they really experts on islam?

 

[RAYYAN]

Islamists have tried using the Quran as the source. But with so few Muslims who can read Arabic and with 800 million illiterate Muslims, other solutions were sought.
But all sources outside of the Quran including the Hadith's are considered anti-Islam. So independent sources such as the link provided are all that is available to educated Muslims.
Muslim Statistics (Education and Employment) - WikiIslam

no, show me a sources that is neutral, WikiIslam is an anti Islam website

 

[Woodrow LI]

What you are missing is the majority of Muslims do not live in the few countries where they show up as literate. The majority of Muslims live in countries where they are the majority of illiterates compared to the rest of that countries population. It is shocking that Islam produces the majority of illiterate Muslims 800 million out of 1.4 billion. Western countries have tried to improve literacy rates but the Islamic tradition of child brides and keeping their women uneducated are counter-productive.
It is Muslims like Dr. Salem that are helping westerners to understand who are the true victims of Islam. Muslims are the least productive people in the world even in the richest Islamic countries. That is why the prophet pleaded with Moses to reduce the number of times Muslims should pray from 50 to 5 or we would never see a vertical standing Muslim in public.

While the Good Dr is probably trying to wake up Muslims to the fact that illiteracy is a major problem in the Islamic Nations. It should be pointed out that Muslims are found in every nation very few nations including the Islamic Nations There are 49 Islamic nations very few contain over 1% of the worlds Muslims. India for example while being only 14.6 Muslim contains 10.9% of the world's Muslims. While Saudi being 97.1% Muslim only has 1.6% of the world's Muslims.

According to the Pew Research Center in 2010 there were 49 Muslim-majority countries.[12] Around 62% of the world's Muslims live in South and Southeast Asia, with over 1 billion adherents.[13] The largest Muslim population in a country is in Indonesia, a nation home to 12.7% of the world's Muslims, followed by Pakistan (11.0%), India (10.9%), and Bangladesh (9.2%).[1][14] About 20% of Muslims live in Arab countries.[15] In the Middle East, the non-Arab countries of Turkey and Iran are the largest Muslim-majority countries; in Africa, Egypt and Nigeria have the most populous Muslim communities.[1][14] The study found more Muslims in the United Kingdom than in Lebanon and more in China than in Syria.[1]

SOURCE

The Countries that have over 5% of the World's Muslims are:

Bangladesh 148,607,000 9.2
India 177,286,000 10.9
Indonesia 204,847,000 12.7
Pakistan 178,097,000 11.0

I did make a very big mistake in stating the 6 countries contained 75% of the world's Muslims. they only contain about 65%
By regions the Worlds Muslims break down as follows
South & Southeast Asia 1,005,507,000 62.1
Middle East-North Africa 321,869,000 19.9
Sub-Saharan Africa 242,544,000 15.0
Europe 44,138,000 2.7
Americas 5,256,000 0.3

But anyhow the Arab Nations and Africa only have 34.9% of the world's Muslims.

Most Muslims do live in Nations that have a reasonable level of literacy. The figures do not support the idea that there are 800 Million illiterate Muslims.

Looking at the about page of the link I find this:

Remember: if you support and defend a brutal and barbaric fascist ideology that targets minorities under the guise of a false religion – you enable and empower it. There are no excuses for supporting the brutality of Islam.

There are sensible ways to tackle Islamic terrorism and make the future safer for the world:

Islam must be made illegal and defined as a foreign fascist ideology, not a religion.
Ban and demolish all mosques. Believe us be: every single mosque in the West contribute to terror funding by ‘donations for Muslim causes’. Jihad is the core foundation of Islam and a duty. Each and every mosque goer is expected to contribute in some way or the other.
Ban the Koran and burn them; block the content from being accessed online.
Remove all practicing and religious Muslims from the West. Completely. Deport them by canceling residency, revoking passports and visas through a reversed ruling on basis of incompatibility and ineligibility.
Countries that refuse or block to take Muslim immigrants back to their own countries need to be fined and sanctioned. Expelled Muslims to their home countries should be booked on a one-way flight to their homeland, disembarked and left at the airport for local officials to deal with.
Ban all trade with and from the Muslim (majority and ruling) world.
Ban all travels to and from the Muslim world.
All sales of properties owned by Muslims in the West need to be revoked of all ownership. The properties should be resold at market value. Funds, minus government fees, should be allotted for poverty alleviation in the owner’s home country (medical, education, housing, jobs).
Ban all banking and payments to and from the Muslim (majority and ruling) world to other non-Muslim countries.
Ban all investments to and from the Muslim world.
End the entire oil trade with the Muslims. The oil trade continues to be an endless source of Islamic terrorism.
Until a total ban is put in place, sanction Muslim countries from trading in oil to non-Muslim nations. (We need a permanent replacement of oil for our energy needs).
Muslims who are in prison in the West, before they are deported, must be separated from non-Muslims.
Muslim charged with plotting, planning or committing terrorism should be executed. As an option, a bilateral agreement can be signed with Saudi Arabia to execute them sharia-style by beheading.
Muslims must be permanently banned from any jobs within law enforcement, immigration, government.
Borders must be protected with three levels of boundaries with clear warnings within each boundary. Illegals forcing entry into the third boundary gets shot at their own volition.

Could it be possible the site has an agenda and is a little biased?

 

[columbus]

I gathered that the images that did the most damage were cooked up by a bunch of imams who travelled around causing trouble and were not part of the original publication. (Where did the Pakistani mobs get all those Danish flags?)

Perhaps you can help me here. Who are imams? Why do they seem to so often cause trouble? Are they really experts on islam?

I also heard that the most offensive cartoons were made up by the imams themselves. But I never had solid sources for that.

Tom

 

[Harikrish]

no, show me a sources that is neutral, WikiIslam is an anti Islam website

There are no Islamic sites that challenge the data in the statistics provided in link because they are hard to refute.

There might be Islamic recruting sites that have their own propaganda but for them to refute such claims would be both impossible and a distraction.

Here is the link again.
Muslim Statistics (Education and Employment) - WikiIslam

 

[YmirGF]

Most Muslims do live in Nations that have a reasonable level of literacy. The figures do not support the idea that there are 800 Million illiterate Muslims.

I agree.

Could it be possible the site has an agenda and is a little biased?

Ya think?

 

[YmirGF]

There are no Islamic sites that challenge the data in the statistics provided in link because they are hard to refute.

There might be Islamic recruting sites that have their own propaganda but for them to refute such claims would be both impossible and a distraction.

Here is the link again.
Muslim Statistics (Education and Employment) - WikiIslam

I'd be more inclined to simply retract the statement as it is most likely a wildly exaggerated claim citing questionable source(s).


It is a major problem to assume that just because something is not easily disproved that it is therefore true.

 

[RAYYAN]

There are no Islamic sites that challenge the data in the statistics provided in link because they are hard to refute.

There might be Islamic recruting sites that have their own propaganda but for them to refute such claims would be both impossible and a distraction.

Here is the link again.
Muslim Statistics (Education and Employment) - WikiIslam

Here is a link that was provided by Woodrow
The World Factbook

 

[Harikrish]

I also heard that the most offensive cartoons were made up by the imams themselves. But I never had solid sources for that.

Tom

I gathered that the images that did the most damage were cooked up by a bunch of imams who travelled around causing trouble and were not part of the original publication. (Where did the Pakistani mobs get all those Danish flags?)

Perhaps you can help me here. Who are imams? Why do they seem to so often cause trouble? Are they really experts on islam?

The imams are Islamic religious leaders who could not find child brides to marry because the younger Muslim men get first pick. Out of bitterness they encourage the younger Muslim men to become jihadist so they will get their 72 virgins in paradise and leave the young girls for the older men. Every jihadists can be traced back to an Imam.

 

[YmirGF]

The imams are Islamic religious leaders who could not find child brides to marry because the younger Muslim men get first pick. Out of bitterness they encourage the younger Muslim men to become jihadist so they will get their 72 virgins in paradise and leave the young girls for the older men. Every jihadists can be traced back to an Imam.

What the ... um, err... heck?

 

[jonathan180iq]

They knew very well it insults ALL Muslims worldwide, the good and the bad...

Yes. The issue is that the attack wasn't on the people who just go about living their lives, or even just on the people who deserve death for the atrocities they commit daily - it was an attack on the concept of holding something as simple as imagery in such high regard. It was a point that the cartoonist wanted to make and had every right to do so, in a form as simple as satire.

There are literally thousands, probably tens of thousands, of political satire cartoons produced every single day. Should we refrain from ever creating political cartoons because members of certain political parties don't have a thick enough skin to deal with it, let it roll off their back, and get on with their lives?

Type in the words "Jesus Meme" into google image search and you'll get nearly 1,000,000 hits, most of which are irreverent. Should no one ever make joking Jesus references because some people just can't handle it?

People who like big trucks make fun of people who like small cars.
People who eat meat make fun of people who choose to be vegetarian.
People who like guns make fun of pacifists.
People who like bright colors make fun of people who only wear dark colors.
(And vice versa on every single account like this)

So what?
This is how society works. Jarring is a very human part of social construction. Satire and mockery, and yes even to the point of insult, are part of who we are. I actually just finished a fairly heated argument with a friend of mine over a theological debate. At the end of the debate - nothing changed for either of us - I think he's an idiot for some of the beliefs that he holds and he probably thinks I'm a hateful little ****, but so what? We're still buds. We're still gonna have lunch with each other tomorrow. We still respect each other. The only difference that divides us, and that we make fun of in each other, is one.

What the cartoonists, and anyone who produces satire is mocking, is an individual aspect of what he views as an outdated belief that is, according to you, very widely held in the Muslim world. If he knew full well that it would be an image that would reach even the furthest parts of the world, and generate a conversation about the usefulness of the idea of the sanctity of a religious figure, then he kind of did what he wanted to do, didn't he?

If people weren't so overly sensitive about something that, at the end of the day, isn't even that big of a deal, then the images would stop being created.

When's the last time that someone made a political cartoon about Marie Antoinette?

See what I mean?

The fact that there is this much conversation about a cartoon from a long time ago shows how pervasive and sensitive the issue is - and we're just talking about a damn cartoon, which, as I mentioned earlier, is really the simplest thing ever and not a big deal whatsoever - yet here we are.