Do You Think Muslims Are Violent?

[rusra02]

Some are, others aren't. Just like everyone else.

I think a better question is whether Islam promotes violence. As with all other false religions, I believe that it does. So do false religions claiming to be "Christian", as well as Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. etc. The Bible rule about this is: "The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous." (1 John 3:10-12)
Those who slaughter others in the name of religion originate with the Devil, irregardless of how their religion tries to justify their heinous crimes, IMO.

 

[Zantiax]

I think a better question is whether Islam promotes violence. As with all other false religions, I believe that it does. So do false religions claiming to be "Christian", as well as Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. etc. The Bible rule about this is: "The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous." (1 John 3:10-12)
Those who slaughter others in the name of religion originate with the Devil, irregardless of how their religion tries to justify their heinous crimes, IMO.

Lot kind of offers for the angry mob to rape his virgin daughters tho. But maybe rape doesn't classify as violence I guess

 

[Smart_Guy]

I think a better question is whether Islam promotes violence. As with all other false religions, I believe that it does. So do false religions claiming to be "Christian", as well as Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. etc. The Bible rule about this is: "The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous." (1 John 3:10-12)
Those who slaughter others in the name of religion originate with the Devil, irregardless of how their religion tries to justify their heinous crimes, IMO.

I believe it depends on how we define violence. Islam simply promotes standing up for one's life, defending honor, life and properties, have strict rules to scare the evil from committing crime (not to actually apply those rules for fun on murderers and rapists), preparing power to protect land, properties and honor against rapists and murderers, to do something against those who walk openly to our families wanting to murder or rape them, instead of just watching them have their way....

If the act of fighting back those trying to rape/murder my mother or sisters, even if it results in killing those murderers/rapists in the process, is called the violence we are talking about, then by all means, yes, Islam promotes violence and I am violent.

Ma'am, please forgive me for this post if it sounded rude, but please understand that this life is harsh. This life is not perfect. We need laws that cover seriousness as well as leniency. We need balance in these two, not just one of them. Believe me, I want all to live peacefully together, but no matter what, there are who want to murder and rape for any reason. We can't just watch them to what ever they want. I'm not saying to attack, I'm saying to defend.

But I don't blame you for accusing Islam for violence (and I'm not mad btw, to the contrary, I respect your opinion and like your honesty ). It is easy to just find verses all over the internet and media that talk about killing, without knowing the context or the reason behind it, and call Islam violent.

 

[icehorse]

I don't think anyone would like it to have themselves' and there families' dignity and honor hurt with profanity. I see the world is getting more and more over liberal. Pornography was once looked down by the West themselves and now it is a trade. I fear that one day child porn would become a trend too. Sorry for the excessive example, but I believe an excessive example is the best way to give a feeling of the worst if the less ones don't work.

I don't believe in absolute freedom, just freedom is fine. Everything has a limit. Living our lives with no limitation could turn with really bad results one day.

Icehorse, please reconsider. You said you have a daughter. I have little sisters that I think of like daughters too. For me, I would never accept having them undignified. I don't mind myself being insulted or made fun of, but not those I care for.

Hey Smart_Guy, You bring up good points, but...

The "freedom to offend" is absolutely necessary. History shows us over and over again that when bad men come to power, the first thing they do is shut down criticism. So, for one example, the "freedom to offend" allows the general population to make it much harder for bad guys to become dictators. Another example, not so dramatic, is right here on RF. I've spent time on a different Muslim forum, and I was not allowed to criticize and discuss Islam the way I discuss Islam here. That other forum basically did NOT allow free speech. The speech was free... up to a point. What that means is that not only was I not able to offer honest criticism, all of the other members of that forum were not allowed to LISTEN to what I had to say.

So Smart_Guy, ask yourself this: Who is smart enough to tell you what you can and cannot listen to? There is no one I've ever met or heard of that I would allow to restrict what I listen to.

Of course, as I've said over and over again, I think people deserve respect. But when bad ideas get powerful, we must have the freedom to criticize them.

 

[Harikrish]

Agree. But some things should be known and researched before one comes and opens his mouth and paint all muslims with the same brush.

Majority of people who know walk with a blind eye acting as if they don't know.

I listened enough to their foolishness and accusations.

I am a good person until one gives me a reason not to be. They talk about how ignorant muslims are. Some members here are more ignorant than that times 10.

Maybe if Muslims were more honest about their ignorance and its cause, people might be sympathetic to their struggles. Because it is a fact more that 800 million Muslims are illiterate which is the primary reason they are also ignorant. But Muslims are under the false impression a few educated Islamists can defend them. People should be made to see why there is tremendous support for ISIS jihadists among Muslims.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey Smart_Guy, You bring up good points, but...

The "freedom to offend" is absolutely necessary. History shows us over and over again that when bad men come to power, the first thing they do is shut down criticism. So, for one example, the "freedom to offend" allows the general population to make it much harder for bad guys to become dictators. Another example, not so dramatic, is right here on RF. I've spent time on a different Muslim forum, and I was not allowed to criticize and discuss Islam the way I discuss Islam here. That other forum basically did NOT allow free speech. The speech was free... up to a point. What that means is that not only was I not able to offer honest criticism, all of the other members of that forum were not allowed to LISTEN to what I had to say.

So Smart_Guy, ask yourself this: Who is smart enough to tell you what you can and cannot listen to? There is no one I've ever met or heard of that I would allow to restrict what I listen to.

Of course, as I've said over and over again, I think people deserve respect. But when bad ideas get powerful, we must have the freedom to criticize them.

If I get it right, you say freedom to offend is an absolute freedom that must be allowed with no restrictions even against those closed to themselves minding their own business. Offenses like insulting them and those they care for out of the blue. Am I right?

Saying that you think people deserve respect sounds kinda contradicting with what I've been hearing from you all along. If freedom to offend is an absolute necessity, it will only allow people to break this thought. The thought that everyone deserves respect.

It feels kinda awkward feeling you're an advocate and an apologist to such a thing. It kinda goes against your signature feel that talks about morals and love.

You also seem to get off-topic here. Your talking about offending Islam believing it is some kinda dictatorship. This is your opinion and I respect that. But we are talking about insulting Muslims here, insulting people. Out of no where some publisher insulted the human father figure of Islam knowing very will it offends Muslims. Denmark has Muslims too. They did it just like that, out of no where, just for fun. Is this the freedom of offense you advocate and support? Islam is a religion that has no feelings. At that time all there was some Muslims in Denmark living their lives normally then came that publisher and insulted their father for no reason.

Honestly, if the intentions of the publisher was just for pure humor and comic relief, believe me, I would not mind it at all. Then they will have done it without knowing it was an insult to Muslims. But the thing is, they perfectly knew that. Actually even with that, they should have been left alone without those angry Muslims revolting like they did. But oh well, unfortunately it already happened.

I'd like you to put yourself in the scenario I came up with before:

Icehorse, please reconsider. You said you have a daughter. I have little sisters that I think of like daughters too. For me, I would never accept having them undignified. I don't mind myself being insulted or made fun of, but not those I care for.

I won't put it in a direct question fearing it would sound rude to someone I respect. Please imagine yourself in some possible harsh scenarios with the above details. How would you feel?

 

[Woodrow LI]

Maybe if Muslims were more honest about their ignorance and its cause, people might be sympathetic to their struggles. Because it is a fact more that 800 million Muslims are illiterate which is the primary reason they are also ignorant. But Muslims are under the false impression a few educated Islamists can defend them. People should be made to see why there is tremendous support for ISIS jihadists among Muslims.

While in the smaller Muslim Nations illiteracy is high the majority of Muslims world wide are able to read and write.
To reach your number of 800 Million Muslims are illiterate would mean over 50% of the world's 1.7 Billion Muslims are illiterate

At least 3/4 of the world's Muslims (over 1 billion) live in 6 countries Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India and China.

The literacy rates for these Nations SOURCE

Indonesia: 92.8%
Malaysia 93.1%
Bangladesh 57.7%
Pakistan 54.9%
India 62.8%
China 95.1%

Some of the Smaller Nations

Saudi 87.2%
Gaza 97.9%

The numbers do not support the claim that 800 million Muslims are Illiterate.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Some of the Smaller Nations

Saudi 87.2%

I thought literacy in Saudi Arabia was only 1%... ME

Sorry, just wanted to relieve the tense atmosphere here. Some posts are so unpleasant

 

[Harikrish]

Dr Farrukh Salem: ‘800 million Muslims out of 1.4 billion are illiterate’
Dr Farrukh Salem: ‘800 million Muslims out of 1.4 billion are illiterate’ | The Muslim Issue

 

[jonathan180iq]

Out of no where some publisher insulted the human father figure of Islam knowing very will it offends Muslims. Denmark has Muslims too. They did it just like that, out of no where, just for fun.

This is not accurate.

Which Religion is currently at the forefront of international news, and not because of it's better qualities? Placed in the context of the time period and given the social climate surrounding Islam and it's louder supporters, this was not out of the blue. Read about the social discourse that was and is happening in Denmark - and many other countries all over the world. It would only appear to be "out of the blue" or "just for fun" to someone who is almost completely ignorant of what's going on in the global conversation that surrounds them.

It is not an attack on the guy who goes about his business, prays 5 times a day and just lives his life - it's an attack on the other side of that coin. To deny that another side exists is a willful exclusion of fact.

 

[icehorse]

Hey Smart_Guy,

From my perspective, great conversation, thanks!

Yes, I claim that - in general - people deserve respect, but that ideas DO NOT deserve respect. (Some people behave in ways that cause other people to lose respect for them. I think we could agree that we do NOT give respect to child pornographers.)

Scientists do NOT respect each others ideas - they attack each others ideas as standard practice.

You might think some of my ideas do not deserve respect, you should be free to criticize my ideas. I think that religious ideas do not deserve respect. I think religious people make extraordinary claims to know things that they do not know, and that the evidence they provide is extremely weak. That's my opinion.

As far as the dictator issue goes, we see this happen over and over again. The OIC has been hammering on the UN for years to introduce blasphemy resolutions. Blasphemy means that some "authority" can determine what I can say about religion and what I can't say. As you know, many Muslim majority countries limit human rights - this is one way that this is accomplished - by limiting free speech. If a population is oppressed by a cruel government, the government ALWAYS makes sure to limit free speech. Free speech is too important to limit, just because individuals might get their feelings hurt.

As you said in another post - it's a hard world. I'd rather that my daughters have the ability to speak out against oppression, even if that means that they might be criticized in ways that would hurt their feelings. And I know my daughters (who are adults), agree with this trade off.

As far as the cartoons - a fantastic way to criticize bad ideas is with humor and satire. Religions hold a LOT of bad ideas, these ideas need to be criticized. Many of these ideas have caused endless suffering throughout history, and they cause endless suffering in 2014.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Hey Smart_Guy, You bring up good points, but...

The "freedom to offend" is absolutely necessary. History shows us over and over again that when bad men come to power, the first thing they do is shut down criticism. So, for one example, the "freedom to offend" allows the general population to make it much harder for bad guys to become dictators. Another example, not so dramatic, is right here on RF. I've spent time on a different Muslim forum, and I was not allowed to criticize and discuss Islam the way I discuss Islam here. That other forum basically did NOT allow free speech. The speech was free... up to a point. What that means is that not only was I not able to offer honest criticism, all of the other members of that forum were not allowed to LISTEN to what I had to say.

So Smart_Guy, ask yourself this: Who is smart enough to tell you what you can and cannot listen to? There is no one I've ever met or heard of that I would allow to restrict what I listen to.

Of course, as I've said over and over again, I think people deserve respect. But when bad ideas get powerful, we must have the freedom to criticize them.

I wonder if you actually mean this: "The "freedom to offend" is absolutely necessary. "

That can have some very serious consequences: I really doubt you believe it is necessary for:

White people to offend Black People
For Muslims to offend Christians
For Protestants to offend Irish, Italian and Spanish people for being Catholic.

I think civilized thought and social coexistence override the right to offend when the only purpose is to offend.

I do support laws that forbid me from offending people when my only purpose is because I want to offend them.

 

[Harikrish]

This is not accurate.

Which Religion is currently at the forefront of international news, and not because of it's better qualities? Placed in the context of the time period and given the social climate surrounding Islam and it's louder supporters, this was not out of the blue. Read about the social discourse that was and is happening in Denmark - and many other countries all over the world. It would only appear to be "out of the blue" or "just for fun" to someone who is almost completely ignorant of what's going on in the global conversation that surrounds them.

It is not an attack on the guy who goes about his business, prays 5 times a day and just lives his life - it's an attack on the other side of that coin. To deny that another side exists is a willful exclusion of fact.

What you have not elaborated is what the other Muslim guy who prays 5 times a day is praying for. "Death to the infidels". There is no other side to a Muslim. Muslims who can read the Quran and the 800 million illiterate Muslims who cannot are all following the same illiterate prophet. It is the illiterate prophet Mohammad that is common to all Muslims plus the desire to marry underage girls or child brides as they call it.

 

[Shad]

Laws forbidding being offended are useless. Being offended is subjective. Something I say could be offensive to some while not to others. Heck it does not need to be an insult directly to a person, it could be a slogan on a shirt, what someone eats or how they dress. People can find all sorts of nonsense offensive. I rather not see the court system dragged down by people with thin skin.

 

[icehorse]

Yup, I actually mean it: The "freedom to offend" is absolutely necessary.

Now when someone is a racist, we have to support their right to being vocal racists - but we should shame them and marginalize them.

 

[Smart_Guy]

This is not accurate.

Which Religion is currently at the forefront of international news, and not because of it's better qualities? Placed in the context of the time period and given the social climate surrounding Islam and it's louder supporters, this was not out of the blue. Read about the social discourse that was and is happening in Denmark - and many other countries all over the world. It would only appear to be "out of the blue" or "just for fun" to someone who is almost completely ignorant of what's going on in the global conversation that surrounds them.

It is not an attack on the guy who goes about his business, prays 5 times a day and just lives his life - it's an attack on the other side of that coin. To deny that another side exists is a willful exclusion of fact.

They knew very well it insults ALL Muslims worldwide, the good and the bad, including the ones mentioned in the first half of the last paragraph you said above. Instead of attacking and insulting the Muslims really making the trouble they decided to insult ALL Muslims world wide. That generalization was out of the blue against all Muslims, and who denies it, is an almost completely ignorant of what's REALLY going on in the globe. I go about my business, pray 5 times a day and just live my life, yet they knew very well that what they did is an insult even to me. I'm from Saudi Arabia and the insult reached me. This kinda guy is a Muslim too that highly cares for Prophet Muhammad. And that is a fact.

They chose an approach that generalizes all Muslims. We all know negative behavioral generalization of very big numbers of humans is an act of the uneducated both scientifically and ethically/morally.

But anyways, I kinda feel they tried to target the troublesome Muslims thinking that ALL Muslims are of that kind because of them. I kinda don't blame them for it, even tho I just believe what they did was wrong. I understand how people would feel about Muslims world wide not knowing that good Muslims like @DawudTalut @Woodrow LI @TashaN and some others (I apologize for missing the) do actually exist. I believe Denmark did not completely deserve the boycott they had from Muslims.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey Smart_Guy,

From my perspective, great conversation, thanks!

Yes, I claim that - in general - people deserve respect, but that ideas DO NOT deserve respect. (Some people behave in ways that cause other people to lose respect for them. I think we could agree that we do NOT give respect to child pornographers.)

Scientists do NOT respect each others ideas - they attack each others ideas as standard practice.

You might think some of my ideas do not deserve respect, you should be free to criticize my ideas. I think that religious ideas do not deserve respect. I think religious people make extraordinary claims to know things that they do not know, and that the evidence they provide is extremely weak. That's my opinion.

As far as the dictator issue goes, we see this happen over and over again. The OIC has been hammering on the UN for years to introduce blasphemy resolutions. Blasphemy means that some "authority" can determine what I can say about religion and what I can't say. As you know, many Muslim majority countries limit human rights - this is one way that this is accomplished - by limiting free speech. If a population is oppressed by a cruel government, the government ALWAYS makes sure to limit free speech. Free speech is too important to limit, just because individuals might get their feelings hurt.

As you said in another post - it's a hard world. I'd rather that my daughters have the ability to speak out against oppression, even if that means that they might be criticized in ways that would hurt their feelings. And I know my daughters (who are adults), agree with this trade off.

As far as the cartoons - a fantastic way to criticize bad ideas is with humor and satire. Religions hold a LOT of bad ideas, these ideas need to be criticized. Many of these ideas have caused endless suffering throughout history, and they cause endless suffering in 2014.

You're welcome. And I thank you for your respectful approach in going thru this conversation.

Bless your daughter, and I wish her the best.

Well, we both shared our views and opinions and I respect the differences we have. I personally have nothing else to add.

Let's have similar discussion some time in the future

What you have not elaborated is what the other Muslim guy who prays 5 times a day is praying for. "Death to the infidels". There is no other side to a Muslim. Muslims who can read the Quran and the 800 million illiterate Muslims who cannot are all following the same illiterate prophet. It is the illiterate prophet Mohammad that is common to all Muslims plus the desire to marry underage girls or child brides as they call it.

Every single detail you have there is wrong. For one at least, I pray at least 5 times a day and it is never about the death of anyone. Sorry to disappoint.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Dr Farrukh Salem: ‘800 million Muslims out of 1.4 billion are illiterate’
Dr Farrukh Salem: ‘800 million Muslims out of 1.4 billion are illiterate’ | The Muslim Issue

The Good Doctor seems to be doing a little misrepresenting. Sort of like he is ignoring that over 3/4 of the word's Muslims are in Just 6 countries. Using the map in the Link you might notice that the only nations with a literacy rate of less than 50% are in Africa and the Mideast.

While it is true that is were nearly all the Muslims nations are, it only contains about 25% of the World's Muslims. If you look over to the Asian Nations you will find the literacy rates to be Much higher. The vast Majority of Muslims are Asiatic and from Asian Nations.

I do not know what Dr Salem's problem is but he seems to be ignoring the Asiatic Muslims in compiling his figures. His own "Proof" seems to discredit his claim that 800 Million Muslims are illiterate.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Yup, I actually mean it: The "freedom to offend" is absolutely necessary.

Now when someone is a racist, we have to support their right to being vocal racists - but we should shame them and marginalize them.

Sometimes rights require limits. My right to swing my arms stops when my hand hits my neighbors nose.

 

[Harikrish]

The Good Doctor seems to be doing a little misrepresenting. Sort of like he is ignoring that over 3/4 of the word's Muslims are in Just 6 countries. Using the map in the Link you might notice that the only nations with a literacy rate of less than 50% are in Africa and the Mideast.

While it is true that is were nearly all the Muslims nations are, it only contains about 25% of the World's Muslims. If you look over to the Asian Nations you will find the literacy rates to be Much higher. The vast Majority of Muslims are Asiatic and from Asian Nations.

I do not know what Dr Salem's problem is but he seems to be ignoring the Asiatic Muslims in compiling his figures. His own "Proof" seems to discredit his claim that 800 Million Muslims are illiterate.

What you are missing is the majority of Muslims do not live in the few countries where they show up as literate. The majority of Muslims live in countries where they are the majority of illiterates compared to the rest of that countries population. It is shocking that Islam produces the majority of illiterate Muslims 800 million out of 1.4 billion. Western countries have tried to improve literacy rates but the Islamic tradition of child brides and keeping their women uneducated are counter-productive.
It is Muslims like Dr. Salem that are helping westerners to understand who are the true victims of Islam. Muslims are the least productive people in the world even in the richest Islamic countries. That is why the prophet pleaded with Moses to reduce the number of times Muslims should pray from 50 to 5 or we would never see a vertical standing Muslim in public.