Do You Think Muslims Are Violent?

[Smart_Guy]

Of course I know which is which - if it doesn't bother you, then it wasn't meant for you.

Is there a specific reason you don't wanna tell which it is if you do know it? You know that things don't have to be meant for us to bother actually bother us.

But still, don't worry about it. I just wanna know. I promise I won't say or do anything rude. I also promise if you just tell me you don't wanna tell, I'll stop asking.

 

[jonathan180iq]

If images of the Prophet Mohammed (no peace wished upon anyone) do not offend you, and you simply view them for what they are, then the mockery of using an image of the Prophet of Islam to show how silly the concept of contempt for such images is, is pointless... ie, not meant for you.

Were this a conversation about the sanctity of the image of any religious figure, then an image mocking that sanctity would be used, regardless of character.

I hope that's clear enough.

 

[Smart_Guy]

If images of the Prophet Mohammed (no peace wished upon anyone) do not offend you, and you simply view them for what they are, then the mockery of using an image of the Prophet of Islam to show how silly the concept of contempt for such images is, is pointless... ie, not meant for you.

Were this a conversation about the sanctity of the image of any religious figure, then an image mocking that sanctity would be used, regardless of character.

I hope that's clear enough.

It is not the offense, it is respect. Any well mannered good educated person don't accept having those they respect offended. You probably have someone you respect and don't want them illustrated badly. And it is not about any religious figure.

You still did not answer my question, but that's okay. It is not like I'd say or do anything bad, and I assured you that, yet you still don't wanna give a direct answer.

It is something known world wide that it hurts Muslims. I don't understand why even fully knowing that, people do it.

I also don't understand why you're getting so defensive and serious about it, even tho I only asked respectfully. All I wanted to know was something simple.

 

[jonathan180iq]

What is not direct about the answer? You asked if it was supposed to be an image of the Prophet Mohammed or just some random arab named Mohammed. I answered your question. If you would like me to do it again:

The cartoon is a satirical image of Mohammed, the supposed prophet of Islam.

It's simply mockery, man. Everything can (and should) be subjected to mockery. Making fun of a cartoon is one of the least disrespectful things that happen on this forum every day. If our ideas and beliefs can't even endure a little bit of jarring, then what does that say about the beliefs and ideas?

And I'm not defensive about anything. I don't take anything here personally - no one even knows who or what I am (And the same is true for you.) We are characters on a forum. The only thing of substance here are occasional admissions of humanity and the ideas that we spread back and forth. That's it. If you want to "say or do something bad" do it. I'm open to the same rules that I place on everyone else on the planet.

 

[icehorse]

Hey Smart_Guy,

(When I say "you" in this post, I mean people in general.)

You're tying "offense" with "respect". I'm sure that your intentions are good, but this is a trap! I respect people, but ideas do NOT deserve respect. Smart_Guy, you and I have been in many conversations and I respect you greatly. But I have no respect for religions in general. I think that the very idea of religion deserves to be laughed at.

So the question becomes, can I respect you, and think that some of your ideas are silly? I think I can. Now if you choose to be "offended", that's your problem. I'm certainly not going to give up my freedom of expression to avoid offending you.

We are EXTREMELY FORTUNATE to be able to talk openly on RF - thank you RF!!!!

As soon as we start being careful not to "offend ideas", our freedom starts to disappear. Our freedom is more important than a person choosing to feel offended.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Just to show that I'm equal opportunity...

 

[jonathan180iq]

You're tying "offense" with "respect".

Yes. I should have been clearer.
I mock things which I do not respect - I have not mocked or insulted or personally said anything about the character with the nice beard and the teal colored thumb.

 

[Smart_Guy]

What is not direct about the answer? You asked if it was supposed to be an image of the Prophet Mohammed or just some random arab named Mohammed. I answered your question. If you would like me to do it again:

It's simply mockery, man. Everything can (and should) be subjected to mockery. Making fun of a cartoon is one of the least disrespectful things that happen on this forum every day. If our ideas and beliefs can't even endure a little bit of jarring, then what does that say about the beliefs and ideas?

And I'm not defensive about anything. I don't take anything here personally - no one even knows who or what I am (And the same is true for you.) We are characters on a forum. The only thing of substance here are occasional admissions of humanity and the ideas that we spread back and forth. That's it. If you want to "say or do something bad" do it. I'm open to the same rules that I place on everyone else on the planet.

The below quoted sounded to me that you are taking it negatively and hiding something between the lines. Sorry about that, I regret misunderstanding you.

Whichever is the most offensive

Prophet Mohammed (no peace wished upon anyone)

All I was trying to do, and that actually came further in out discussion while what I really wanted was a direct answer of "this" of "that" about that pic only, is giving an idea of how Muslims feel. We care so much for Prophet Muhammad. Moderate Muslims clarify to non Muslims that and if anything seen offensive, they request if it is possible to remove it, that's all. I did that before and what offended me the original poster was kind enough and removed it. I thanked them for that and it all ended with mutual respect just because we were direct and honest with each other. What some people see completely fine, other might see offensive. People are different, and I believe we must consider that.

I also don't see where I showed lack of endurance. All I'm doing is discussing respectfully. If it seemed to you the opposite, please know that it was not intended.

Dunno why you're telling me to "say or do something bad" if I want. I told you I wouldn't do it and even you telling me, I wouldn't change my nature and betray my teachings and do it. You seemed like you took it from me as a threat. No Sir, it's never that or anything similar.

If RF allows saying or doing bad things to members without their consent, I wouldn't be here in the first place. This place is respected and is for respected people like yourself and I. If it allows it, I would have looked down on it and it's management.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Just to show that I'm equal opportunity...

Sir, it is not about equality, it is about respect, consideration and understanding. Jesus is respected by other people too that I believe the right thing is to respect their feelings and not make fun out of him.

And btw, Jesus means a lot to Muslims too.

Please stop doing that and in a religious forum. I don't impose myself, I'm humbly asking of you kindly stop that.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Yes. I should have been clearer.
I mock things which I do not respect - I have not mocked or insulted or personally said anything about the character with the nice beard and the teal colored thumb.

I personally know you didn't insult, nor had the intention to do it. I'm only clarifying that the presence of the pic hurts Muslims. If I know something would hurt you, I'd avoid it out of consideration to you. I think it is reasonable and makes sense.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I did not take anything as a threat - What could you have done anyway, type in bold text?

The whole point of telling you to do so was just to illustrate the concept of all the rules being the same for everyone, including myself. If I had something that I held in high regard, capable of attributing the title of "holy" even, then I would expect it to come under fire. If I didn't have a sense of humor about it, then how would I ever survive in the real world.

And that's the problem that I have with the idea of removing all offensive images from the world. If something is so fragile in it's existence that it can't endure a little mockery, then what is it? How insecure are we when even cartoons make us feel threatened or offended? Satire and dissent are very very healthy things. If we close ourselves into a box where we only deal with things that make us feel pretty and happy and color our world with rainbows and bunny rabbits, then how are we ever going to grow. Doing so is the very epitome of resting on our laurels. It is being prodded and tested that drives progress within us, both personally and socially.

It's a damn cartoon. It's nothing more. It should not offend you, or anyone else any more than a picture of a rock being called a tree should be offensive. The basis of your religion lies in the words of a man on some paper, not in his corpse, or an image thereof.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Sir, it is not about equality, it is about respect, consideration and understanding. Jesus is respected by other people too that I believe the right thing is to respect their feelings and not make fun out of him.

And btw, Jesus means a lot to Muslims too.

Please stop doing that and in a religious forum. I don't impose myself, I'm humbly asking of you kindly stop that.

This is part of the open forum section of the site - everything is thus open for discussion. I understand that you do not like images of certain religious figures to be mocked. I do not come into the Islamic DIR and post mocking images, as that place is left open for discussion among the pious, of which I am not. But this forum is not for that purpose. It is open for the debate of nearly any topic - and the sanctity and holiness and religious figures is one of those things. I do not do this to insult you personally, but to mock the very idea of such sanctity itself. It is lunacy, in my opinion, to revere something so much.

If the spiritual authority of that thing which is revered is toppled simply because of goofball image of that thing, then what does that say about the thing itself?

I am not the kind of person who is going to refrain from pressing a button that has a large sign on it that says "DO NOT PRESS"
Pressing that button should be a chance to study and learn what happens when it's pressed, not something that is avoided simply because some people don't like it...no offense.

I say this very sincerely - if the pressing of said buttons hurts certain people, then they need to learn to deal with it.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Smart_Guy, you and I have been in many conversations and I respect you greatly. But I have no respect for religions in general. I think that the very idea of religion deserves to be laughed at.

And I understand that completely. All I'm saying is that even if we do not respect ideas, we do not go everywhere saying or implying bad things about it on front of its believers, and I believe triggering it with what those believers see offensive could be negative too. I don't mind being told that someone thinks my God or prophet are not real, but to present them badly on front of me could mean that the speaker don't respect me and it gives the impression you mean to offend me.

I know that different cultures have different mentalities and understandings, that's why when I see someone make fun of what I care for or respect, I simply clarify to them that for Muslims it is offensive. After that, it is them and their code of conduct whither they do it again. And then I'd completely forget about it and leave them do what they want.

We could think that a girl is ugly, does that mean it is right to tell her head on that she is ugly if she wants to go our with me and I don't? Why not at least tell her she's not my type and I don't share the same feeling with her? Same with mentally challenged people. It is not right to call them retarded just because they medically are.

It is all about common sense, respect, consideration, and similar good feelings. Respect and consideration is what makes people get along with each other.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Smart_Guy,

A person cannot change their physical bodies. It's not at all the same thing. Because a person CAN change their ideas. So I think it's cruel to attack a person's appearance - I think it's completely fair to attack a person's ideas.

Think about being a modern scientist... Every scientist knows that every one of his ideas, ideas that he might have spent years working on, will come under the harshest of criticisms. We MUST be able to make fun of anyone's ideas. No compromise, no respect for ideas. People yes, ideas no.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I did not take anything as a threat - What could you have done anyway, type in bold text?

Believe me, I wouldn't even do that, out of consideration and respect for you.

Maybe it is true a cartoon should not offend, but as I said before, people are different. The whole world knows that Muslims are tight and such losers that they get offended for a cartoon illustrating Prophet Muhammad as an evil angry terrorist. It is common sense for mentally sane adults to consider that. Muslims boycotting Denmark before and inflecting financial loses is also a free choice Muslims make, yet they got attacked for it.

I'm afraid I'll pull back from replying to your further posts, the next you already posted included. If you insist on not caring for my requests, I can't do anything about it.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hi Smart_Guy,

A person cannot change their physical bodies. It's not at all the same thing. Because a person CAN change their ideas. So I think it's cruel to attack a person's appearance - I think it's completely fair to attack a person's ideas.

Think about being a modern scientist... Every scientist knows that every one of his ideas, ideas that he might have spent years working on, will come under the harshest of criticisms. We MUST be able to make fun of anyone's ideas. No compromise, no respect for ideas. People yes, ideas no.

Yes but people are the ones that have the ideas in their emotions. It is not like ideas float around by themselves.

Beliefs can be changed yes, but what if they don't? I take my beliefs as my ideals and principles. I don't think that being able to change things makes a difference in this subject. Ideas by scientists can just be ignored instead of making fun of them.

Believe me, beliefs are really really complicated and difficult to even budge. They are so delicate. Love is an emotion too. We can't hurt the feeling of those who love us in anyway that specifically touches this love.

Honestly, I didn't expect (it does not change the fact that I respect you tho) you to say that we must be able to make fun of ideas. It seems kinda goes against your signature (what comes under posts). Your signature at least implies that we can at worst cases discuss and try to convince people if you think their ideas are wrong, not make fun of them. Also, ideas are different than beliefs.

 

[icehorse]

Hey Smart_Guy,

What if someone you love has a bad, dangerous idea? Isn't it better to use humor than anger? And again, you said "make fun of them". This is subtle, but I'm not advocating making fun of people, I'm advocating making fun of ideas. I understand that people often get attached to their ideas. Some people think that they ARE their ideas. So I agree that many people will get quite upset if you make fun of their ideas. But freedom of expression is far too important to be restricted so that people don't get their feelings hurt.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I'm afraid I'll pull back from replying to your further posts, the next you already posted included. If you insist on not caring for my requests, I can't do anything about it.

That's absolutely fine. Like those who chose to boycott Denmark because of freedom of expression and religious satire, you can boycott my responses. You won't be ridiculed or insulted for doing so.

You may want to block me entirely, however, as satire and humor are a large part of what I post here on Religious Forums. If that is found to be udderly offensive, then I'm going to milk it for all it's worth.

Last thing before you banish me to cyber-Hell... Knowledge comes from challenging concepts, not placating them.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey Smart_Guy,

What if someone you love has a bad, dangerous idea? Isn't it better to use humor than anger? And again, you said "make fun of them". This is subtle, but I'm not advocating making fun of people, I'm advocating making fun of ideas. I understand that people often get attached to their ideas. Some people think that they ARE their ideas. So I agree that many people will get quite upset if you make fun of their ideas. But freedom of expression is far too important to be restricted so that people don't get their feelings hurt.

Yes, I meant the ideas by "them" too, not people.

I just believe that freedom of expression should be within reason. There are things should not be said, other things better not be said, others controversial to be said, and finally what can be perfectly safely said. Differences in people(s) is one of those things that govern those. There is no harm in letting people believe what they want as long as it does have the nature in itself to hurt others. There is no harm in respecting Muslims in how they feel about Prophet Muhammad and refrain from presenting him in a way perfectly knowing they believe offensive.

Please remember in the end I'm only sharing my thoughts and views. I could be wrong, and I'm only trying to be reasonable, respectful and considerate.

 

[Smart_Guy]

That's absolutely fine. Like those who chose to boycott Denmark because of freedom of expression and religious satire, you can boycott my responses. You won't be ridiculed or insulted for doing so.

You may want to block me entirely, however, as satire and humor are a large part of what I post here on Religious Forums. If that is found to be udderly offensive, then I'm going to milk it for all it's worth.

Last thing before you banish me to cyber-Hell... Knowledge comes from challenging concepts, not placating them.

I wouldn't block you nor banish you to anything let alone cyber, it would be rude. And our subject is not about knowledge, but thanks for the heads up. Satire and humor are good things as long as done moderately and within reason, just like anything else. I don't think intentionally posting pictures you perfectly know offends some large group of people in a place you know very well they come around is not moderate, unless it was in a clear respectful context and understanding. You know what they say "make fun of me but not of who I respect or care for". I actually came up with that myself.