Do You Think Muslims Are Violent?

[icehorse]

Hey Smart_Guy,

Cool, I'm good with using "Islamic law"

My point is that these beliefs - from Islamic law - are commonly held by Muslims around the world. Because of this, I think we can fairly claim that Islam itself is a contributing factor in these unhealthy beliefs (e.g. apostasy and blasphemy as crimes).

It strikes me that apologists for Islam constantly try to blame these beliefs on other factors, even though it's clear that Islamic law is a constant around the world.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Shadow Wolf,
How much stuff do you need to happen before you register concern? Are you okay with the living conditions of women living in Pakistan and Afghanistan? Are you ok with the OIC's relentless assaults on free speech in the UN? (It will be much harder to protest, once protest becomes illegal.)

Probably enough for something to actually happen that isn't an isolated incident, and something more than a local culture entrenched in the throes of mob rule. Perhaps I'd register a concern if the bulk majority of Muslims I meet were very hostile towards me, and made me feel unsafe being around them. Maybe if there were any real chance ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, or whatever group had bases all over the place and were able to recruit any Muslim off the street with the greatest of ease, then I might be concerned. Personally, I'm much more worried about far-right American Conservatives who believe discrimination is a right and that anyone and everyone who is GLBT should remain in the closet, by force if necessary. I'm more worried I'll be killed in a car wreck on my way to and back from school today than I am running into some Muslim extremist. I'm much more likely to run into a Christian extremist. And, in my personal experience, while I couldn't even begin to estimate how many Christians have judged me and told me I'm going to hell, not a single Muslim that I have met has done this to me. They seem to be more on par with Mormons with friendliness and being able to drop the issue of proselytizing.
And no, I am not ok with anyone's attack on free speech, unless the content is explicitly calling for discrimination and violence towards a group.

Ok then, simple question:

Why do so many Muslims, from all around the world, believe that apostasy and blasphemy should be crimes?

Why do so many Christians believe this? Why do so many of [insert religion here] believe this? Why do so many American Liberals get worked up into a frenzy over un-PC speech? Why do so many American Conservatives demand censorship and banning of certain content? Why do so many people consider desecration of their country's flag a crime? Your question must be expanded in order to answer it. People get attached to things, and when they view something as sacred (which even includes national identity), they sometimes get upset when someone desecrates those feelings.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It strikes me that apologists for Islam constantly try to blame these beliefs on other factors, even though it's clear that Islamic law is a constant around the world.

No more or less constant than Christian law around the world. There is no way to ever logically apply any sort of such universal standards to a group that spans the entire globe. It just doesn't work. For starters, people from different cultures think differently and will interpret things different. Even within the same culture, because of individual experiences, people will have different interpretations. It just doesn't work like that.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Woodrow,

Fair enough - I was using Sharia - loosely - as a short-hand label for a collection of beliefs that often include Islam acting in realms of law. For example, apostasy and blasphemy. So for example, and to be more precise, a large percentage of Muslims, from all around the world, believe that apostasy and blasphemy are punishable offenses. I was encapsulating these examples under the loose umbrella term "Sharia". If there is a better label, I'm happy to use it.

Under the Hanafi Madhab of Sharia Apostasy and Blasphemy are not punishable offenses as the proof of guilt is an impossibility to show. In the Madhabs that do consider them to be punishable, part of the proof of guilt is to show the act has caused other crimes. To be fair Apostates and Blasphemers are often arrested and severely punished in some nations. But usually the actual charge is not Blasphemy or Apostasy. I will agree that sometimes the charges are false allegations and fabricated.

It should be noted that in the Qur'an there are stated instances of apostates repeating apostasy multiple time, which should indicate that the death penalty is not mandatory as it would be difficult for a dead person to be a repeat offender.

Also in the Ahadith (Plural of Hadith) there are ahadith in which Muhammad(saws) forbade his followers to harm a person that commited blasphemy.

National Jurisprudence may be a better choice as no Nation uses actual Sharia Criminal Law, Iran may have reason and justification to call their legal system Sharia, however it needs to be understood that Sunni do not consider Jafari to be legitimate Sharia. Saudi does claim to use the Hambali Madhab of Sharia, but it is highly influenced by the Monarchy and Wahhabi. I do not know of any Non-Saudi Muslim that considers Saudi to be following Sharia.

The legal system of Pakistan has totally broken down and is very close to anarchy. What is called Sharia is predominately Punjab Culture combined with Wahhabi.and or mob rule and a vigilante mentality.

 

[icehorse]

Shadow Wolf,

No doubt that other religions have many of the same problems, but THIS thread is about Islam. no doubt that other political entities have many of the same problems, but THIS thread is about Islam. You want to start a thread on how Christians support apostasy and blasphemy laws, I'll join you!

When you said:

No more or less constant than Christian law around the world. There is no way to ever logically apply any sort of such universal standards to a group that spans the entire globe. It just doesn't work. For starters, people from different cultures think differently and will interpret things different. Even within the same culture, because of individual experiences, people will have different interpretations. It just doesn't work like that.

It seems you're evading the question? Based on large polls, the EVIDENCE is that - in fact - when it comes to ideas codified in Islamic law, people across many cultures DO think the same. You seem to be arguing against data?

Woodrow,

I'm not arguing the pros and cons of various "interpretations" of Islamic law. I'm discussing the EVIDENCE in the world, that HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of Muslims believe the same basic things (like apostasy and blasphemy), that ARE mentioned in Islamic law. So you can argue that those hundreds of millions of Muslims are wrong, but I don't think that opinion matters much. It's you against hundreds of millions of people.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Shadow Wolf,

No doubt that other religions have many of the same problems, but THIS thread is about Islam. no doubt that other political entities have many of the same problems, but THIS thread is about Islam. You want to start a thread on how Christians support apostasy and blasphemy laws, I'll join you!

When you said:

It seems you're evading the question? Based on large polls, the EVIDENCE is that - in fact - when it comes to ideas codified in Islamic law, people across many cultures DO think the same. You seem to be arguing against data?

Woodrow,

I'm not arguing the pros and cons of various "interpretations" of Islamic law. I'm discussing the EVIDENCE in the world, that HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of Muslims believe the same basic things (like apostasy and blasphemy), that ARE mentioned in Islamic law. So you can argue that those hundreds of millions of Muslims are wrong, but I don't think that opinion matters much. It's you against hundreds of millions of people.

While I agree that most, probably all Muslims believe both Apostosy and Blasphemy are sins and crimes if a Muslim does them, there is considerable difference of opinion if that is applicable to non-Muslims and even less agreement as to if they are Hadud (Requiring an Earthly punishment)
The 4 Madhabs of Sharia are not in agreement over this.. You will get a big differences depending on what Madhab if any is prevalent in a Nation I find Muslims to be the most diverse group of religious adherents in the world. Probably because we have no ordained clergy, accept no central religious leader and have no standard religious teachings.

World wide what most Muslims learn about Islam, will be what their Mother taught them.


My Jewish relatives often tell me that when you have 2 Jews discussing religion there will be 3 opinions. My reply is that is nothing, when you have one Muslim discussing religion there will be at least 4 different opinions. I firmly believe that in the concepts of religious beliefs we are the most individualistic people on earth. The only thing I ever find Muslims agreeing about are the 5 Pillars of faith. Yet we consider all Muslims to be our Brothers and Sisters.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Woodrow - If only such differences of opinion were confined to civil debate. But the unfortunate reality is that real people get punished for these so-called "offenses", and real collections of Muslims are assaulting the UN in an ongoing attempt to introduce blasphemy laws. This is not a conversation about theoretical possibilities. This is a conversation about doctrinal beliefs having real, negative impacts on real people in 2014.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Shadow Wolf,
No doubt that other religions have many of the same problems, but THIS thread is about Islam. no doubt that other political entities have many of the same problems, but THIS thread is about Islam. You want to start a thread on how Christians support apostasy and blasphemy laws, I'll join you!

It is about Islam, and my post was your posts not having a sound conclusion. To single out Muslims for what you have it unfairly stigmatize a very large group that your accusations do not apply to.
And yes, I am arguing data. I would have to see these polls, and enough of them, that when meta analyzed will show a very clear theme of Muslims across various cultures all having the same interpretation of Islamic law. This sounds highly improbable. I have no doubts that they all believe it is important, but I find it very unlikely that interpretations will be very consistent. Because people in different cultures literally view the world differently, it seems very doubtful that Muslims from Eastern to Western culture and everywhere in between are going to hold consistent views on Sharia law.
And even if there are some similarities (which of course there will be some), it seems even less likely they would desire the same punishment. Some people believe Muslims want to kill all non-Muslims, even though under the Ottoman empire Christians and Jews were granted freedom to exercise their religions and self-govern (and certainly far more freedom than the Medieval Church allowed for). But because Muslims are inherently divided over the Caliphate and who should rule it, I strongly have my doubts that Muslims are really that homogenous of a group when the entire Ummah is considered.

 

[icehorse]

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

 

[Woodrow LI]

Hi Woodrow - If only such differences of opinion were confined to civil debate. But the unfortunate reality is that real people get punished for these so-called "offenses", and real collections of Muslims are assaulting the UN in an ongoing attempt to introduce blasphemy laws. This is not a conversation about theoretical possibilities. This is a conversation about doctrinal beliefs having real, negative impacts on real people in 2014.

How many votes do the Islamic Nations carry in the UN? There are only 49 Islamic Nations in the world not all being members of the UN. Currently there are 194 UN`Member Nations. The Islamic Nations have no chance of ever carrying a Majority. This is primarily a show for the Muslim representatives to impress the populace in their Nations.

The Blasphemy laws in Pakistan were introduced by the British when the Area was under Colonial Rule. the intent was to protect the Christian minority.

The Blasphemy law is a part of the Pakistan Penal Code, which was introduced in 1860 by the British Government to protect religious feelings. It may be observed that Section 295 provides protection to worship places of all classes of religions living in the subcontinent. It does not contain element of discrimination or preference to any class. It maintains equality of all before the law. The law appears to maintain mutual harmony and peace as well as to promote sense of mutual tolerance, understanding and respect in the multifaceted society of the subcontinent. This section represents the typical example of a secular democratic law for benefit of all and loss to none.

SOURCE

Currently there is an Islamic Movement to repeal it.

At the recent PR seminar, Dr. Zaheer mentioned that even though there are several mentions of blasphemy committed by the polytheists of Makkah and hypocrites of Madinah against Islam and its Prophet (PBUH), no worldly punishment has even been hinted at in the Qur’an.

Instead, the Qur’an urges Muslims to ignore what the blasphemers were doing, to not participate when they blaspheme, and create circumstances that do not allow blasphemy to take place. Dr. Zaheer pointed out that Muslims must apologise to non-Muslims for the unwarranted crimes in the past committed against them in the name of religion to ease tensions. He stated that Muslims should condemn, or at least not hold those individuals as their heroes, who murdered non-Muslims accused of blasphemy because they become inspirational to the youth of the community.

If a Blasphemy Law must exist, from an Islamic point of view, Dr. Zaheer believes it must satisfy the following conditions:

a) Capital punishment cannot be given to a person who is found guilty of committing blasphemy. According to the Qur’an, capital punishment can only be given to murderers and those who take the law into their hands. (Qur’an; 5:32)

b) The punishment should be applicable to those found guilty of blasphemy against revered personalities, deities of all faiths and it should be equally applicable to both Muslims and non-Muslims. The Qur’an says: “Don’t use abusive language against their false gods lest they should use the same language against yours in retaliation.” (Qur’an; 6:108)

Ultimately, though, most civil society participants in the debate on the blasphemy law believe that to ensure the fundamental human rights of all citizens, irrespective of class, caste and creed, as envisaged by Pakistan’s founder, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, the current government needs to repeal the law without further delay.

SOURCE

 

[Zafer Ahmad]

The question shouldnt be are muslims violent but is islam vilont?

I don't say muslims are violent.I am not judging anyone.I just wonder general perception about muslims.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

Attitudes toward Islamic law vary significantly by region. Support for making sharia the law of the land is highest in South Asia (median of 84%). Medians of at least six-in-ten Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa (64%), the Middle East-North Africa region (74%) and Southeast Asia (77%) also favor enshrining sharia as official law. But in two regions, far fewer Muslims say Islamic law should be endorsed by their governments: Southern and Eastern Europe (18%) and Central Asia (12%).
Conversely, in some countries where Muslims make up more than 90% of the population, relatively few want their government to codify Islamic law; this is the case in Tajikistan (27%), Turkey (12%) and Azerbaijan (8%).
Distinct legal and political cultures may help to explain the differing levels of support for sharia.
The survey also finds that views about instituting sharia in the domestic-civil sphere frequently mirror a country’s existing legal system.
The survey finds that religious devotion also shapes attitudes toward sharia.8 In many countries, Muslims with higher levels of religious commitment are more likely to support sharia. In Russia, for example, Muslims who say they pray several times a day are 37 percentage points more likely to support making sharia official law than Muslims who say they pray less frequently.
When Muslims around the world say they want sharia to be the law of the land, what role do they envision for religious law in their country? First, many, but by no means all, supporters of sharia believe the law of Islam should apply only to Muslims.
Muslims’ attitudes toward women’s rights are mixed.
It seems your link strongly backs up my position in that the Ummah is not a homogenous group.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Here's a point where there is a clear dominant position:
Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam. Asked specifically about suicide bombing, clear majorities in most countries say such acts are rarely or never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies.

Most Muslims around the world express support for democracy, and most say it is a good thing when others are very free to practice their religion. At the same time, many Muslims want religious leaders to have at least some influence in political matters.

Given a choice between a leader with a strong hand or a democratic system of government, most Muslims choose democracy.
Most Muslims are comfortable practicing their faith in the contemporary world. Relatively few feel there is an inherent conflict between being religiously devout and living in a modern society, and the prevailing view in most countries surveyed is that there is no inherent conflict between religion and science. However, most Muslims think Western music, movies and television pose a threat to morality in their country – even though, on a personal level, substantial percentages say they enjoy Western entertainment.

 

[icehorse]

Woodrow, I believe the OIC has 56 or 57 member states, and I also believe it's the single biggest voting block in the UN. As for a blasphemy law from 1860... is this a "two wrongs make it right" argument? Are you saying the OIC is NOT actively and persistently pursuing blasphemy resolutions in the UN?

Shadow Wolf - Of course I never said "homogeneous" group. If you look at the first paragraph you mentioned, you see consistently strong, majority support for Sharia except in a few regions. It just so happens that a heavy majority of Muslims live in the regions that support Sharia, and that relatively few Muslims live in the other two regions.

So we have strong support for Sharia, spanning the globe and spanning many cultures. What's the one constant? Islamic doctrine. It's almost as if the doctrine has some effect on what people believe... wow!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Woodrow, I believe the OIC has 56 or 57 member states, and I also believe it's the single biggest voting block in the UN. As for a blasphemy law from 1860... is this a "two wrongs make it right" argument? Are you saying the OIC is NOT actively and persistently pursuing blasphemy resolutions in the UN?

Shadow Wolf - Of course I never said "homogeneous" group. If you look at the first paragraph you mentioned, you see consistently strong, majority support for Sharia except in a few regions. It just so happens that a heavy majority of Muslims live in the regions that support Sharia, and that relatively few Muslims live in the other two regions.

So we have strong support for Sharia, spanning the globe and spanning many cultures. What's the one constant? Islamic doctrine. It's almost as if the doctrine has some effect on what people believe... wow!

And it mentions nothing of specific interpretations of Sharia, but it does mention that what laws Muslims support does typically revolve around the laws that nation has already enacted. They are also widely varied on how Sharia should be applied. And of course, in regards to women's rights, although it's a commonly held view that Sharia prohibits women from making their own choices, Muslims themselves are mixed on if women should have these rights or not. And of course many Christians throughout the world strongly support Biblical law, whatever that's supposed to mean.

 

[Levite]

I don't say muslims are violent.I am not judging anyone.I just wonder general perception about muslims.

I don't think "Muslims are" anything. There are like two billion of them, it would be ridiculous to generalize about that many people.

I think just like any other faith tradition, there are Muslim individuals who are more violent and extreme, and Muslim individuals who are pacifist and nonviolent, and individuals everywhere on the spectrum in between. There are some Muslim communities and schools of thought that seem to be more radical and fundamentalist and seem more tolerant of violence or encouraging of violence, and some Muslim communities and schools of thought that seem to be moderate and thoughtful, and seem less tolerant of violence and not encouraging of violence.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Shadow Wolf,

First off, I wasn't talking about terrorism, you brought that into the conversation. That said...

If you factor in actual Muslim populations, my guess-timate (studying the poll), is that conservatively 10% of the world's Muslims think that suicide bombing - in defense of Islam - is sometimes or often justified. As you say, the majority of Muslims disagree, but 10% comes out to about 160 MILLION.

In 2006, when a few Imams stirred up controversy over a few cartoons of Muhammad, published months earlier in a Danish newspaper, there was rioting in the streets all over the world, something like 200 people were killed, and embassies around the world were attacked.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Woodrow, I believe the OIC has 56 or 57 member states, and I also believe it's the single biggest voting block in the UN. As for a blasphemy law from 1860... is this a "two wrongs make it right" argument? Are you saying the OIC is NOT actively and persistently pursuing blasphemy resolutions in the UN?

Shadow Wolf - Of course I never said "homogeneous" group. If you look at the first paragraph you mentioned, you see consistently strong, majority support for Sharia except in a few regions. It just so happens that a heavy majority of Muslims live in the regions that support Sharia, and that relatively few Muslims live in the other two regions.

So we have strong support for Sharia, spanning the globe and spanning many cultures. What's the one constant? Islamic doctrine. It's almost as if the doctrine has some effect on what people believe... wow!

As for the 1860 law it was wrong when the British introduced it and was still wrong when Pakistan did not abolish it after gaining independence.

I just looked at a listing of the 57 OIC member nations. Some of them are not Islamic or even Muslim Majority Nations. the ones I immediately see that are not Islamic Nations:

Ivory Coast
Gabon
Uganda
Togo

There has to be more as there are only 49 Islamic Nations.

Perhaps the Blasphemy law they are pushing for is similar to the British 1860 law, making the Blasphemy of all religious beliefs a crime., no matter what the religion is,

While there is strong support for Sharia among Muslims. Sharia is not one specific set of laws. Among the Sunni alone there are 4 different Madhabs called Sharia. Along with other Legal systems that are not Islamic. The Shi'ite has several schools of law each called Sharia. what the Hanafi Madhab calls Sharia is considerably different from what the Wahhabi call sharia and both are very different from what the Shi'ite Jafari call Sharia.

 

[icehorse]

What's an "Islamic Nation" ?

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Under the Hanafi Madhab of Sharia Apostasy and Blasphemy are not punishable offenses as the proof of guilt is an impossibility to show. In the Madhabs that do consider them to be punishable, part of the proof of guilt is to show the act has caused other crimes. To be fair Apostates and Blasphemers are often arrested and severely punished in some nations. But usually the actual charge is not Blasphemy or Apostasy. I will agree that sometimes the charges are false allegations and fabricated.

It should be noted that in the Qur'an there are stated instances of apostates repeating apostasy multiple time, which should indicate that the death penalty is not mandatory as it would be difficult for a dead person to be a repeat offender.

Also in the Ahadith (Plural of Hadith) there are ahadith in which Muhammad(saws) forbade his followers to harm a person that commited blasphemy.

National Jurisprudence may be a better choice as no Nation uses actual Sharia Criminal Law, Iran may have reason and justification to call their legal system Sharia, however it needs to be understood that Sunni do not consider Jafari to be legitimate Sharia. Saudi does claim to use the Hambali Madhab of Sharia, but it is highly influenced by the Monarchy and Wahhabi. I do not know of any Non-Saudi Muslim that considers Saudi to be following Sharia.

The legal system of Pakistan has totally broken down and is very close to anarchy. What is called Sharia is predominately Punjab Culture combined with Wahhabi.and or mob rule and a vigilante mentality.

Have youlearnedthe piousofIslam
The Renegade is the death penalty and evidence from the Quran and hadiths
Any State in which the application of Islamic law have left Islam requires the death penalty
Evidence from the Quran and Islamic books
This is Islam, persecution and terror
Even his followers
Eliminates thefreedom ofmind
Eliminates thefreedom of thought
EmbracingIslamputsthe wordlockedon his mind