Do you think stepping on bugs is wrong - why or why not?

[ratikala]

dear thrylix

many people beleive that we are given life to fullfill a purpose ,
many Hindus and Buddhists belive that we should not interfere with the cycle of birth and death which means we should not unnecessarily cause the death of any living thing .

I'm a Hindu and I also believe in reincarnation and non-violence. IMy whole life I've tried to avoid killing unnecessarily.

my thoughts entirely with empasis onthe word unnecessary .

It actually has nothing to do with reincarnation. Although I believe that all living things have souls and eventually become human and gods etc. this is really not the reason to feel bad about killing.

this is a common thought in all Buddhist , Jain and Hindu comunities .

Stepping on the insects causes them pain and suffering. Knowing or believing this, I cannot go out of my way to cause that suffering. If I took enjoyment from such acts, I would be a sadist. I am not a sadist.

even an ant has a mother and dependent family members to kill even an ant unnecessarily is to cause suffering also to its family members.

 

[Madhuri]

For the ants I've stepped on there are worse ways for ants to die than getting flattened under a giant foot. But If I were ant I would hope I don't run into me or another guy like me either.

'There are worse ways to die' should not be a justification. Someone could kidnap you, torture and then kill you. But there could be worse ways to die. That doesn't make it ok.

I believe bugs may experience pain but they don't have the capacity to feel suffering. If a giant alien whose size, intelligence, and perception was 1000x ours came to earth and was bored and decided to plant his foot on NYC to stir things up, I'm sure that I'd be waving my arms desperately to be noticed and think life unfair and that the alien was a giant jerk.

Experiencing pain will mean that they suffer. You don't have to be highly intelligent to suffer. Being stepped on and fated to die a slow and painful death will mean that those many entities have to suffer.

In your example, the alien would be a giant jerk. A selfish, uncaring creature. How does this justify your actions? If someone else does something bad, you think it gives you license to do something bad too?

But if I were a giant alien on another race's planet, I'd probably do the same.... I'd watch them for a while, get bored after an hour, see what they do when I crush some of their towns. And I'd probably be just as indifferent to the tiny aliens waving up at me with their pleas . No one (at least nobody who mattered) would ever find out or punish me for it.

So morality to you is about being found out and punished? So let's see...if you could get away with raping people, killing children, burning cities etc. you would do it and this is morally justifiable?

Just to be clear, I am not arguing that killing ants is equal to killing humans. I am challenging your use of logic.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I agree but some disagree with what I do at the same time often due to religion. True, I'm toying with beings that I see as much less significant than I see myself as being.

If godzilla were real, would he care about the tiny humans he is stepping on? If I were that size, I wouldn't!

Nor would any ant hesitate to kill if it happened by way of role reversal and became much larger than a human being. We call that a force of nature, and the manner on how our own brains are wired is a part of nature. People will always differ in such ways and qualities like empathy will vary with each makeup of each person. My view is nature is like that. We strive to be compassionate now and then but even such qualities will vary one person to another. I wont concider a lack of empathy on part of a person as making any said person inferior nor superior, just an act of nature that
"maintains itself " through complex actions. Sometimes calm, sometimes stormy on how things bear out.

It's hard to see that using a dualistic mindset and narrower focusing on any aspect which might put actions that are painful and cruel as being apart and separate from that of wellness and kindness.

Many Buddhists realise nature as it is and whatever karma it produces. Living and existing accordingly with things as they are.

 

[Thrylix]

'There are worse ways to die' should not be a justification. Someone could kidnap you, torture and then kill you. But there could be worse ways to die. That doesn't make it ok.

Experiencing pain will mean that they suffer. You don't have to be highly intelligent to suffer. Being stepped on and fated to die a slow and painful death will mean that those many entities have to suffer.

I don't believe it is that slow and painful. Why would it be?

In your example, the alien would be a giant jerk. A selfish, uncaring creature. How does this justify your actions? If someone else does something bad, you think it gives you license to do something bad too?

Only from the perspective of the humans is the alien selfish or uncaring. They would probably consider him sadistic too. But from the perspective of the alien, he's just curious as to what some bugs do when you disrupt their nest. He's not really getting anything out of it except sating a sort of callous curiosity. In his perspective he's not doing any harm. No different than kicking a rock.

So morality to you is about being found out and punished? So let's see...if you could get away with raping people, killing children, burning cities etc. you would do it and this is morally justifiable?

Just to be clear, I am not arguing that killing ants is equal to killing humans. I am challenging your use of logic.

I wouldn't do those things. Sorry, my point was that it that being a giant alien, I wouldn't think that a race of tiny beings matter much.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

It depends on the bug, its proximity and how sharp its fangs are and/or the potential for that bug to spread disease.

Normally, I just leave bugs alone if they are not harming me...many a time I have left a huntsman spider alone in my woodlands cottage...with full nightmares of the thing crawling on my face as I sleep...

I also leave wood roaches alone and ants usually get the ignore treatment...but German roaches and ants that infiltrate my pantry get traced back to the source and swiftly terminated...

I am mindful to respect my space and share my living quarters with insects of all descriptions...however, when they start 'taking over' and soldier ants start launching grenades at me is when I usually start fighting back...

Om Namah Shivay

 

[Madhuri]

I don't believe it is that slow and painful. Why would it be?

You said when you looked at the shoe, the ants were still alive or half dead, which means their death would have been very slow.

Only from the perspective of the humans is the alien selfish or uncaring. They would probably consider him sadistic too. But from the perspective of the alien, he's just curious as to what some bugs do when you disrupt their nest. He's not really getting anything out of it except sating a sort of callous curiosity. In his perspective he's not doing any harm. No different than kicking a rock.

You were equating yourself to this alien and you mentioned that you and your friend were snickering about stomping on the ants and seeing them only half dead. That isn't just innocent curiosity. Does the alien know that he causes suffering to the humans? Do you know that you cause suffering to the ants? I think we can judge a human or this alien based on their knowledge/ignorance. An individual who acts in ignorance is far more innocent than one who acts with full knowledge.

I wouldn't do those things. Sorry, my point was that it that being a giant alien, I wouldn't think that a race of tiny beings matter much.

What makes something matter? Who knows what the alien would think. It could be highly intelligent and empathetic. For example, one human doesn't care about the experiences of something that looks so tiny and insignificant to him and therefore cruelly destroy their lives while another person might sympathise with those creatures, realising that destroying their lives and causing them harm is a grossly selfish and heartless thing to do. Similarly, one alien being might be heartless and kill the humans while one is less selfish and more sympathetic.

 

[Thrylix]

You said when you looked at the shoe, the ants were still alive or half dead, which means their death would have been very slow.

Yea, my running shoes were really muddy and some some were sort of trapped. I'm sure they eventually died somehow..

You were equating yourself to this alien and you mentioned that you and your friend were snickering about stomping on the ants and seeing them only half dead. That isn't just innocent curiosity. Does the alien know that he causes suffering to the humans? Do you know that you cause suffering to the ants? I think we can judge a human or this alien based on their knowledge/ignorance. An individual who acts in ignorance is far more innocent than one who acts with full knowledge.

I wasn't snickering as much for the fact that they might have been suffering. It was more like "Hey man, check out how many ants are stuck to my foot." Childish but not necessarily sadistic.

What makes something matter? Who knows what the alien would think. It could be highly intelligent and empathetic. For example, one human doesn't care about the experiences of something that looks so tiny and insignificant to him and therefore cruelly destroy their lives while another person might sympathise with those creatures, realising that destroying their lives and causing them harm is a grossly selfish and heartless thing to do. Similarly, one alien being might be heartless and kill the humans while one is less selfish and more sympathetic.

Question: would you say stepping on ants is as cruel or heartless as the alien in that encounter? What if that alien is a well-liked, all-around good guy in his society, who helps others in need. Because generally that is how I'm perceived. What would you make of such a being who also acts in the way you describe as cruel by treating ants as I do (admittingly, like dirt). Like I've said, I've been stepping on bugs my whole life. Just in ants, I've probably crushed hundreds to a thousand now with my feet, a good number on purpose. In your perspective, I'm committed a lot of cruelty. Yet few that I know would consider me cruel.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What if that alien is a well-liked, all-around good guy in his society, who helps others in need. Because generally that is how I'm perceived. What would you make of such a being who also acts in the way you describe as cruel.

So what? John Wayne Gacy had a similar public persona.

 

[Caladan]

I'm 21 years old, had to go to a picnic today. I got up to throw something in the garbage and at the garbage can noticed a horde of ants bustling around a little ant mound. I was bored so I lifted my foot over them and stamped it down. After flattening them and their little home under my shoe, I walked back to the blanket.

When I sat back down, I leaned over to check out all the crushed ants stuck to my foot. My friend and I sort of snickered because the ants I carried through the grass on the bottom of my feet were only half-crushed and squirming in the treads of my running shoe. Then out of nowhere some guy who I didn't know saw me and called me a "white bully" and "inhumane" because I step on bugs. I told him to bend down and kiss my stinking feet. I know, not nice, heh.

Now, I've been stepping on bugs my whole life. I know jains respect all life and believe that what I do when I see a bug is wrong. But how is that explained? I thought they believed in reincarnation but how does that work? Do they believe that bugs are reincarnated from people?

If I'm stepping on uncle bob, is that really such a bad thing? I guess my thoughts would be eh, better luck next time. There was probably a reason he ended up as a tiny ant on the bottom of my shoe.

I don't know if you are a bully in the common and classical definition of the word, but between supernatural cosmic hogwash about screwing another life form's karmic cycle, then you are closer to the former. My verdict is that you are 21, maybe you should just act your age and not squash insects for the sake of boredom.

 

[Thrylix]

I've never really bullied anyone.

 

[Madhuri]

Question: would you say stepping on ants is as cruel or heartless as the alien in that encounter? What if that alien is a well-liked, all-around good guy in his society, who helps others in need. Because generally that is how I'm perceived. What would you make of such a being who also acts in the way you describe as cruel by treating ants as I do (admittingly, like dirt). Like I've said, I've been stepping on bugs my whole life. Just in ants, I've probably crushed hundreds to a thousand now with my feet, a good number on purpose. In your perspective, I'm committed a lot of cruelty. Yet few that I know would consider me cruel.

This is not easy to answer, because I do not know much of anything about you other than that you enjoy killing bugs.

As i mentioned earlier, I judge peoples' behaviour largely based on their amount of knowledge. If a person or being acts through ignorance, I am less likely to think of them as being 'bad'. For example, a dog might hunt and kill another animal purely for fun but I don't think that the dog is 'bad' because I doubt the dog understands that it is causing suffering.

Similarly, it is possible that you do not think that bugs have the capacity to experience pain and to therefore suffer. Most people for a very long time have thought that animals is general lack consciousness or the ability to think or feel. It is only recently that science has enlightened us about this and is constantly finding more evidence that animals are highly perceptive and intelligent.

But most societies are still influenced by the long beliefs that animals are like objects, at our disposal. So we still torture, eat and kill animals far more intelligent than bugs. Why would most people think twice about killing a bug? Most people are just like you. They don't care.

In your example, I also can only judge the alien based on its knowledge. If it is fully aware of the fact that humans are intelligent, emotional and capable of great suffering then his lack of care would absolutely make him a selfish and heartless creature. He is so limited as to only care about his own community or species. I judge humans the same way. If you kill bugs believing that they feel nothing and have no consciousness, then I wouldn't judge you a bad person. But if you believe that the bugs will suffer but decide to go out of your way to harm them, then I can't think very highly of you and certainly wouldn't judge you a decent human being. It is a very cruel thing to harm a creature if you believe it will experience pain.

Having said all of that, I assume you do not actually think that the insects are capable of suffering (which include experiencing pain) or being conscious and you are probably are decent person. I avoid killing insects where possible because I do believe that they are conscious and suffer. So I would be a cruel person if I killed them for fun.

 

[Knight of Albion]

Man, beast or insect - life is dear to all.

 

[Knight of Albion]

Man was intended to be the guardians of the Animal Kingdom and Mother Earth ('The Sacred Trust'). Our sacred duty is to care, help and protect, not to hurt and kill.

Those of the Animal Kingdom are animated by the same spark of God and on their own evolutionary path ... We should not exclude them from our circle of compassion.

 

[dawny0826]

I don't take issue with stomping on bugs of the problematic variety.

But, I'm not one to go out of my way to destroy buggies in their natural habitat. I'm cool, if they're cool in their own space.

I reserve the right to evict them from mine.

 

[Revoltingest]

I dunno, Going out of your way to kill them seems a bit cruel and unnecessary.

Then again, I can't judge.
If I know the whereabouts of a spider in my house I'm going to kill it.
No mercy for spiders

I show mercy to spiders, walking sticks, bees, praying mantises (manti?) & rolly pollies,
but not ants, skeeters, termites, roaches, wasps, & earwigs. It's their attitude.

 

[arthra]

Yeah I think in the case of JAinism it relates to the concept of karma... and kindness to other creatures..

Doubtless as you crush an ant hill with your boot you felt perhaps some excitement in that you could vent some of your anger pent up on relatively helpless beings.. but that feeling of superiority of course comes back to you and says more about your own character.

Kindness to other creatures is what some call "Ahimsa" non-injury.

"Man is generally sinful and the animal is innocent; unquestionably one must be more kind and merciful to the innocent."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 374)

One time I cut down a tree near my property line and later realised it was a home for many birds who flew away.. My heart was saddened and I regreted what I had done.

 

[Urban Dharmic Warrior]

I'm 21 years old, had to go to a picnic today. I got up to throw something in the garbage and at the garbage can noticed a horde of ants bustling around a little ant mound. I was bored so I lifted my foot over them and stamped it down. After flattening them and their little home under my shoe, I walked back to the blanket.

When I sat back down, I leaned over to check out all the crushed ants stuck to my foot. My friend and I sort of snickered because the ants I carried through the grass on the bottom of my feet were only half-crushed and squirming in the treads of my running shoe. Then out of nowhere some guy who I didn't know saw me and called me a "white bully" and "inhumane" because I step on bugs. I told him to bend down and kiss my stinking feet. I know, not nice, heh.

Nice.

If you are asking, truly, for opinions on what you've described, I agree with the guy who came over to you.

Not judging people like you is the most difficult thing in my daily practice.

I hope that one day you can see why what you done here is just so bad for you (more than the ants).

I don't know if you are a bully in the common and classical definition of the word, but between supernatural cosmic hogwash about screwing another life form's karmic cycle, then you are closer to the former. My verdict is that you are 21, maybe you should just act your age and not squash insects for the sake of boredom.

Yep I agree, everything about your lack of ability to consider why pointlessly killing animals is wrong, points your being a plain old common or garden bully. Your attitude towards the ants is the same as a bully's attitude towards their target.

And I agree also with the age point - I could possibly accept your opening post if you'd said you were 11 years old but 21 ? .... don't you have anything else to concern yourself with than killing ants?

 

[Urban Dharmic Warrior]

[Deleted].

In my opinion: This person is just trying to shock and get attention.

Neither him nor this thread is worthy of any more attention.

 

[Thrylix]

Similarly, it is possible that you do not think that bugs have the capacity to experience pain and to therefore suffer. Most people for a very long time have thought that animals is general lack consciousness or the ability to think or feel. It is only recently that science has enlightened us about this and is constantly finding more evidence that animals are highly perceptive and intelligent.

I think our understanding of pain differs. I think ants experience pain only in the sense that they can sense damage that occurs to their bodies. A computer can also be programmed to sense damage to systems, but it doesn't experience pain in the sense that you or I do. I think ants' capacity to experience pain and suffering is limited, which is why I am indifferent to the ants that aren't fully crushed under my shoe.

In your example, I also can only judge the alien based on its knowledge. If it is fully aware of the fact that humans are intelligent, emotional and capable of great suffering then his lack of care would absolutely make him a selfish and heartless creature. He is so limited as to only care about his own community or species.

Well, in that example the alien as superior in intelligence to humans as humans are to ants. To him, he just stepped on a nest of mindless bugs. No big deal. Sure down below in NYC people of all ages are in a panic, suffering, crying, dying as them and all their buildings are instantly pulverized by some monstrous alien foot. To his perspective, there's a little crunch. He watches for a minute and then moves on. In that scenario, I wouldn't consider the alien to be selfish or uncaring or heartless. He's just doing what I would be doing in that situation.

 

[BSM1]

Man was intended to be the guardians of the Animal Kingdom and Mother Earth ('The Sacred Trust'). Our sacred duty is to care, help and protect, not to hurt and kill.

Those of the Animal Kingdom are animated by the same spark of God and on their own evolutionary path ... We should not exclude them from our circle of compassion.

So....how do you feel about bacteria and germs?