Do you think stepping on bugs is wrong - why or why not?

[Vinayaka]

What is sambrani? I tried a mosquito coil last night, but it made me choke on the fumes. I am thinking about going out and buying a mosquito net...this sucks (so do they).

It's the incense resin stuff that they burn in South Indian temples. Its an insect repellant.

I see you can order it here. Sambrani, Sambrani Products, Sambrani Suppliers and Manufacturers at Alibaba.com Oops, I see this is a wholesale place. But Indian stores often stock it.

Get the whole stuff. Then you grind it or hammer it to a powder, and place it on coals in a dish. Wander about the house with the smoke. https://www.google.ca/search?q=sambrani+burning&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=mna&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ei=zkzHUvyvCMKCyAGek4HgCw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoATgU&biw=1440&bih=772#facrc=_&imgrc=a1ZKOotHy3pgUM%3A%3BDZzz6Ywazza8WM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F3.bp.blogspot.com%252F-q3Rhs6JHiyQ%252FTac2Kt1UcHI%252FAAAAAAAACig%252FT6r6tld4_kg%252Fs1600%252FJanuary%252B2011%252B280.JPG%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fjustamotheroftwo.blogspot.com%252F2011%252F04%252Fsambrani-more-than-fragrance-post-14.html%3B1600%3B1063

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

It's the incense resin stuff that they burn in South Indian temples. Its an insect repellant.

I see you can order it here. Sambrani, Sambrani Products, Sambrani Suppliers and Manufacturers at Alibaba.com

Get the whole stuff. Then you grind it or hammer it to a powder, and place it on coals in a dish. Wander about the house with the smoke. https://www.google.ca/search?q=samb...ni-more-than-fragrance-post-14.html;1600;1063

Wow! thanks so much for telling me. I must get some and hopefully get a good night's sleep.

 

[Quintessence]

That is a grossly inappropriate false equivalence.

Yes, I'm sure someone who holds speciest attitudes would think that. Don't feel bad, though. The overwhelming majority of humans are incredibly speciest. Hell, Western society barely recognizes anything non-human as being a valid moral subject. It's kind of disgusting, IMHO. Easily as disgusting as the "false equivalence" I countered with.

 

[Penumbra]

Organisms are all of different cognitive complexity, with different spectra of emotional experience, as far as anyone can tell and as far as evolution requires certain degrees of cognition for the creature to live. I care more for a human than a cat, and more for a cat than an ant, and more for an ant than a bacterium.

If reincarnation is true, then a quick death for a bug would simply bring about its next great adventure, would it not? And if not, then it can have oblivion.

That being said, I go out of my way to spare most bugs that enter my apartment.

In different seasons, we get different invasions. Sometimes, we get a new large black cricket in the apartment every day from under the front door, and I get surprised when I'm walking around and see a large ominous black moving shape, or worse when I get startled by one hopping onto my bare foot. Other times, we get millipede invasions from the same door. Sometimes it's stinkbugs. One time an ant colony came in from a crack in the wall, and there were two instances of rather terrifying house centipedes. There are occasional spiders.

I keep minimal furniture, little clutter, and we have off-white carpets, so they're usually easy to spot. So, I maintain a clear bowl and sheet of flat solid material, specifically as my bug-catcher kit. If I see a bug, I catch it with my kit, and put it outside. There have been a couple of really scary bugs like the house centipedes that have frightened me, evaded my bowl with their speed, and I'd prefer not to be bitten on my hand or foot or whatever, and so I've killed some. When I do, I make sure they are dead quickly, so that whatever sentience they have is not bothered for long.

Sometimes at work I craw in tight dark places with a flashlight to access wires or control systems, and occasionally a large wolf spider startles me, as I'm sure I startled it. It will generally die.

 

[nilsz]

Yes, I'm sure someone who holds speciest attitudes would think that. Don't feel bad, though. The overwhelming majority of humans are incredibly speciest. Hell, Western society barely recognizes anything non-human as being a valid moral subject. It's kind of disgusting, IMHO. Easily as disgusting as the "false equivalence" I countered with.

If you do not see any difference in the dignity of human beings and that of bugs and critters, to the point that you find it within reason to compare animals and human minorities, then our value systems are very much opposed. Know that there are many who will eagerly deride you for such comments.

 

[McBell]

If you do not see any difference in the dignity of human beings and that of bugs and critters, to the point that you find it within reason to compare animals and human minorities, then our value systems are very much opposed. Know that there are many who will eagerly deride you for such comments.

So much for all life being sacred...

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

...and now, there are 4 flies in my room....living in Australia is bad for bugs...

I may invest in one of those purple light things...then it's their fault if they fly into it and get zapped...

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Ah. So there's still at least one person who is consciousness.

*whew*

Well, I suppose I wasn't meaning exactly that. There's also the possibility that I (the thinker) is not conscious either. Like a computer that thinks it is conscious, but that actually is not.

I mean, it may seem like it's impossible for there not to be an observer for these thoughts, but perhaps it is that way, that there is no observer, only thoughts about thoughts. A body of thoughts, thinking about the other thoughts, would make a great illusion for it being conscious, when really it's not.

It would sort of make sense, in my opinion. "When you awake from cryonics, will it really be you? Will you awake from the unconsciousness or will you forever be unconscious while another conscious is born in the body?" that leads to questioning "What is you?" Without a soul concept, most people consider that "you" does not exist as a permanent object, but is transforming pretty much every second. Think deeper, then you might see yourself as a single thought, each thought that changes, then it is an entirely new 'you'. No consciousness, only the illusion of it.

If that made sense. But I suppose to further discuss this, it'd be best to make a new thread.

 

[Kenaz]

Mindless bugs are different, in my opinion.

Not so much mindless, just different than our own intelligence.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=weve-been-looking-at-ant-intelligence-the-wrong-way

You keep asking what a specific religion says is OK or not: what does your own conscience say?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Not so much mindless, just different than our own intelligence.

We've Been Looking at Ant Intelligence the Wrong Way: Scientific American

You keep asking what a specific religion says is OK or not: what does your own conscience say?

Anyone who thinks ants are mindless clearly aren't paying attention

 

[Quintessence]

Having a mind isn't a prerequisite for establishing something as a moral subject, so why this should matter is confusing to me. Human blastocysts and humans with severe brain damage clearly don't have minds either, yet are regarded as moral subjects by some.

 

[dawny0826]

Having a mind isn't a prerequisite for establishing something as a moral subject, so why this should matter is confusing to me. Human blastocysts and humans with severe brain damage clearly don't have minds either, yet are regarded as moral subjects by some.

They are regarded as moral subjects because they matter to someone else, do they not?

A child who is brain dead and surviving only because they are connected to a ventilator, is directly connected to the conscience decisions of the family who have to prepare themselves for the pain of letting go of a loved one whilst, possibly, struggling with their own morality when making the decision to off the switch.

 

[Quintessence]

They are regarded as moral subjects because they matter to someone else, do they not?

In a fashion. I think it has to do with that humans are overwhelmingly biased to consider themselves as primary moral subjects beyond anything else. Particularly, their own life and well-being, followed by that of their kin. And kin doesn't have to be human, but in my culture, it almost always is unless it's a family pet. Ethics in Western culture has been and continues to be overwhelmingly anthropocentric.

 

[Penumbra]

In a fashion. I think it has to do with that humans are overwhelmingly biased to consider themselves as primary moral subjects beyond anything else. Particularly, their own life and well-being, followed by that of their kin. And kin doesn't have to be human, but in my culture, it almost always is unless it's a family pet. Ethics in Western culture has been and continues to be overwhelmingly anthropocentric.

So are other species.

Lions kill antelopes for food. Lions will even kill cubs of other lions, if they take over a pride.

A flood of ants will dismember a bug alive if they catch it. They nibble at the joints with their pinchers, taking bits off of the squirming thing until it's all back in their colony.

Some birds push baby birds out of a nest if there are more than the nest can hold. And it can lay on the floor dying, or be eaten by animals.

If a human or other animal enters the territory of a powerful animal, it may indeed violently kill that intruder.

Nature is not some pure altruistic thing with humans as an outlier. Humans are home among its ethics.

Some humans, on the other hand, go to great efforts to conserve the environment, protest animal cruelty, work at shelters to help animals, help wounded animals in the wild, and so forth, when such actions would not be returned by almost any other creature.

 

[Madhuri]

Well, in that example the alien as superior in intelligence to humans as humans are to ants. To him, he just stepped on a nest of mindless bugs. No big deal. Sure down below in NYC people of all ages are in a panic, suffering, crying, dying as them and all their buildings are instantly pulverized by some monstrous alien foot. To his perspective, there's a little crunch. He watches for a minute and then moves on. In that scenario, I wouldn't consider the alien to be selfish or uncaring or heartless. He's just doing what I would be doing in that situation.

If this alien is so superior in intelligence, it most likely understands exactly the implications of its behaviour.
It takes either a very stupid or uncaring creature to cause suffering to others, not an intelligent creature.

 

[dawny0826]

Nature is not some pure altruistic thing with humans as an outlier. Humans are home among its ethics.

Some humans, on the other hand, go to great efforts to conserve the environment, protest animal cruelty, work at shelters to help animals, help wounded animals in the wild, and so forth, when such actions would not be returned by almost any other creature.

Exactly.

In a fashion. I think it has to do with that humans are overwhelmingly biased to consider themselves as primary moral subjects beyond anything else. Particularly, their own life and well-being, followed by that of their kin. And kin doesn't have to be human, but in my culture, it almost always is unless it's a family pet. Ethics in Western culture has been and continues to be overwhelmingly anthropocentric.

We're no more biased than any other species. We have the ability to rationalize and apply morality.

A ravenous wolf will not spare its prey because it sympathizes with it. Nature doesn't struggle with moral dilemna. Regardless as to any sin humans commit against nature, we also have the unique ability to mourn for the losses therein and to take that energy to do something positive to improve our surroundings.

Insects, as my husband calls them, are nature's little robots. Do you think an ant, if gargantuan, would stop to question whether crushing you was ethical?

 

[Madhuri]

Do you think an ant, if gargantuan, would stop to question whether crushing you was ethical?

It might if it had the capacity to emphathise and the intelligence to understand how its actions affect others.

 

[Madhuri]

Some humans, on the other hand, go to great efforts to conserve the environment, protest animal cruelty, work at shelters to help animals, help wounded animals in the wild, and so forth, when such actions would not be returned by almost any other creature.

Why do most people seem to not acknowledge that this is because humans have the capability to do this while other species do not?

 

[Badran]

Now, I've been stepping on bugs my whole life. I know jains respect all life and believe that what I do when I see a bug is wrong. But how is that explained? I thought they believed in reincarnation but how does that work? Do they believe that bugs are reincarnated from people?

If I'm stepping on uncle bob, is that really such a bad thing? I guess my thoughts would be eh, better luck next time. There was probably a reason he ended up as a tiny ant on the bottom of my shoe.

I have an irrational fear towards a lot of bugs, and it's not easy for me to even kill them, let alone catch and release them outside of the house. So i kill bugs often, because i can't live with bugs in my house, and i can't stop them from coming in. I can reduce their coming in, which i do, but i can't stop it entirely. I can and do release a butterfly perhaps, when i can. But a cockroach? Not very likely.

Now, i feel a bit guilty about it, because i might be able to over come these emotions and spare some unnecessary carnage. So in question of what you described, the issue is clear cut to me. Killing some form of minor life for fun isn't negligible. I think it's a petty thing to do.

That said, i also eat meat, so i contribute to animals getting killed, and sometimes horribly, so that i could eat them. So i'm not gonna judge you. I'll just judge the act. It's unnecessary, and petty, just like my eating of meat is. Only my eating of meat contributes to even more suffering, or at least more suffering i can relate to.

In regards to reincarnation, even if there are various cycles a creature goes through, there's no reason to cut one short just for having fun. Or more accurately, there is a reason, but it's not a very good one.

In short, i don't think you should try to justify it. It's petty, so rather than philosophize it, embrace that pettiness, or change it.

 

[dawny0826]

It might if it had the capacity to emphathise and the intelligence to understand how its actions affect others.

But, it does not and you have no way of knowing in certain terms that it would if it could and that was my point.

Ants are little robots, encapable of feeling pain as they lack complex nervous systems and they can be harmful to humans (some species). Even those that we don't have to fear biting can, in large numbers, cause structural damage, spread disease and contaminate food.

Granted, they can positively influence eco systems, but, not hardly, when they are invading your home and/or ruining your property.

As a human, yes, I absolutely have a bias towards my own kind. When comparing the well being of my family to the well being of an insect colony that's invaded my living space, I find it most acceptable from a moral perspective, to look out for the living creatures who can feel pain and be negatively impacted in other ways by such creatures.