Do you think stepping on bugs is wrong - why or why not?

[oldbadger]

Points to focus on: claiming that from the 'POV' of nature all organism may be part of one system rather than a hierarchy is one thing, implying that humans are somehow unique in the animal kingdom by being biased toward their own kind is just plain ignorant.
If people want to claim that humans are 'more biased', then please show that a piraña is less biased toward other organism, or a viper, or a fruit fly. Please measure your data for comparison between the thoughts and feelings of different creatures and establish your analysis, I would not be surprised if house cats turned out to be more vain than all. In addition this superficial claim of bias is biased in itself, you are in fact patronizing over other creatures not to have their own sense of discretion.
If you want to discuss the disproportionate unnecessary cruelty or damage humans do then choose your terminology to better address that, and don't lose the argument by turning it into a false argument on the philosophical level making hunanity into an anachronistic component in earthly biology. Stress the difference between biased to 'biased in a particular way' and make a constructive case for it using data in context without the philosophical baggage.

What is this? Homework? :biglaugh:
You are looking like old Manthorpe, my last maths master. He was more immediately dangerous than you, 'cos he had a broken hockey stick which he called 'my pole'. 'Oldbadger! Fiddling again.I hate fiddlers! Go fetch my pole!'

implying that humans are somehow unique in the animal kingdom by being biased toward their own kind is just plain ignorant.

Old Manthorpe would have definitely sent for his pole.... you weren't paying attention! All animals are programmed to wish for their species to survive. This includes the ones that offer their own bodies to their young for food.

However, Shyanekh has provided a list already, which is going to supply me with endless thinking-fodder........... so I need to leave this debate because I'm all filled up with facts to consider.

 

[Caladan]

What is this? Homework? :biglaugh:
You are looking like old Manthorpe, my last maths master. He was more immediately dangerous than you, 'cos he had a broken hockey stick which he called 'my pole'. 'Oldbadger! Fiddling again.I hate fiddlers! Go fetch my pole!'

Manthrope sounds more like a Zen master who spanks his students with a stick when they talk out of their bum bum, telling them to go and think harder on the issue.

Old Manthorpe would have definitely sent for his pole.... you weren't paying attention! All animals are programmed to wish for their species to survive. This includes the ones that offer their own bodies to their young for food.

Or those who eat their unhatched offspring, or their mates, hmm you know something? These two forms of phenomena often exist in the same biological order/species. Sounds evil something. Maybe even some mother spiders are RHP and others are LHP, you could definitely wonder if both aren't just biased in very extreme and opposing ways.

However, Shyanekh has provided a list already, which is going to supply me with endless thinking-fodder........... so I need to leave this debate because I'm all filled up with facts to consider.

Shyanekh has done a great job providing several examples, as other members have also done including in this thread. However I would be shocked to hear that members have never seen a dog or a cat killing rodents, birds or insects and other creatures for sports.

 

[dawny0826]

This so called Human bias claim which has been repeated for so many threads by pseudo-enlightened members (or armchair gurus as I fondly refer to them) is one of the stupidest I have ever heard. Many animals are biased towards their own kind. It is in fact perfectly natural.
If a woman rather have a romantic dinner with a man instead of with a shrimp then she is biased towards our own kind.

If you're implying in some way that we're in disagreeance, perhaps you should back up and read some of my prior posts in this thread.

 

[Caladan]

If you're implying in some way that we're in disagreeance, perhaps you should back up and read some of my prior posts in this thread.

No... Please read rest of posts in which I clarified to old badger that I actually agree with your points in this thread in case there was a misunderstanding.
There are a couple of posts in particular in this thread a few pages back, and in another thread or two that got me going, in this regard it was not even the exchange between you and Madhuri, which only served as a catalyst.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think whether stepping on bugs or otherwise harming them is acceptable or not depends on context and circumstances. The same applies to harming animals.

Based on your description in the OP, I'd say that stepping on bugs for no further reason than "having fun" is unnecessary, immature, and needlessly destructive for other creatures. Bugs exist in nature for a reason, so as long as they're not harming people, I believe they should be conserved rather than harmed or killed.

I don't hold the view that the lives of bugs are as valuable as those of humans, though, nor do I value the life of any animal more than that of a human. If I were in a situation where I found myself in front of a lion and knew that it would starve to death if I didn't allow myself to be turned into its dinner, I'd still run as fast as I could to save myself. Humans are animals too, and if we're to help ourselves or any other lifeforms, then we need to act in favor of our self-interest. You can't help someone to their feet before being able to stand on your own.

Also, my view regarding harming bugs isn't absolute or constant in every situation: if I see a bug where I live, for example, I'll kill it to avoid any unhealthy effects having bugs around my room can have. So to me it's a matter of avoiding as much harm as possible, which sometimes means protecting bugs and sometimes means killing them for the greater benefit of humans (whose lives I regard as more valuable than bugs, as I mentioned above).

 

[Thrylix]

Playing xbox is unnecessary and immature too..but we still do that. And for those who say it's cruel to find it fun to kill things, why do so many games feature killing and destruction. Is it really much more wrong to find it funny to watch the chaos and panic when I lift my foot off an ant colony's home, than it is to shoot up a bunch of fake soldiers in Call of Duty?

 

[Badran]

Playing xbox is unnecessary and immature too..but we still do that. And for those who say it's cruel to find it fun to kill things, why do so many games feature killing and destruction. Is it really much more wrong to find it funny to watch the chaos and panic when I lift my foot off an ant colony's home, than it is to shoot up a bunch of fake soldiers in Call of Duty?

There isn't any actual harm or damage that occurs when playing a video game.

Emotionally wise, i think even in something like video games, reveling in some actions might be indicative of a few things worth considering, but generally, i think this is an unsuitable example.

 

[Thrylix]

True. But I feel that the harm I'm causing by stepping on ants is so negligible that it doesn't bear mentioning, so insignificant that I may as well just be killing video game persons. Both, to me, are just mindless programmed beings. In both cases, I'm destroying something that can't feel fear.. maybe just the ants for a second when they see a giant foot next to their home..

 

[Badran]

True. But I feel that the harm I'm causing by stepping on ants is so negligible that it doesn't bear mentioning, so insignificant that I may as well just be killing video game persons. Both, to me, are just mindless programmed beings. In both cases, I'm destroying something that can't feel fear.. maybe just the ants for a second when they see a giant foot next to their home..

I can understand that, but it's not just a question of what the ants feel or not feel, rather also of the result. Forms of life have actually been destroyed, while in the video game literally nothing happened. The characters you kill are not even dead for good, you can resurrect them by restarting.

Those lives that might have lived on longer if you had not interfered and killed them would have done things, that have consequences and meaning, too. Insignificant, no doubt, in our eyes, and i can understand the effect of that on you (not making you feel guilty), but it exists all the same, and it was destruction that could have been very easily avoided in this case.

 

[dawny0826]

No... Please read rest of posts in which I clarified to old badger that I actually agree with your points in this thread in case there was a misunderstanding.
There are a couple of posts in particular in this thread a few pages back, and in another thread or two that got me going, in this regard it was not even the exchange between you and Madhuri, which only served as a catalyst.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[SoulDaemon]

you would have to define the reason, accident or on purpose. Stepping on a bug or an ant accidentally does not make you any less of a person, stepping on a bug on purpose you have to trace back and think why.

If you can't answer that you are doing wrong, not because you stepped on it but because you can't say why. Do we learn from our actions or not.
We have consciousness, knowing good and bad. And learning to overcome bad.

We usually do these things because we just can. But we should ask ourselves "do or don't do?".

A child might not know the importance of the bugs life or life as it is but adults should know.

Animals harming other animals is different for they are lead on by instinct to hunt. They use other animals as sport to enhance their ability to survive and to become better hunters.

Someone referred to cats, yes, they sport on mice and birds, why? to become better at hunting to support their pups or themselves, sometimes they kill because the mouse running away triggers the hunting instinct.

Think what you do and why, don't just do because you can.

 

[SheWhoSeesYou]

If a giant alien whose size, intelligence, and perception was 1000x ours came to earth and was bored and decided to plant his foot on NYC to stir things up, I'm sure that I'd be waving my arms desperately to be noticed and think life unfair and that the alien was a giant jerk.

But if I were a giant alien on another race's planet, I'd probably do the same.... I'd watch them for a while, get bored after an hour, see what they do when I crush some of their towns. And I'd probably be just as indifferent to the tiny aliens waving up at me with their pleas . No one (at least nobody who mattered) would ever find out or punish me for it.

By this logic, you admit that you are a giant jerk. Correct? If you were a giant on another races planet how do you know you would do the same thing? YOU would no longer be YOU. And how do you know aliens would share your lack of empathy, or that an alien would have individual thought and not think and act as a whole unit as the ants do. Ah, but if you were out visiting another planet then you must be thinking and acting individually. In that case, how do you know you wouldn't be found out? I imagine interfering with another planet could be a major offense on the planet you come from. The punishment could be great.

I feel that the harm I'm causing by stepping on ants is so negligible that it doesn't bear mentioning

Does not bear mentioning? Does it not? Are you sure?

 

[SheWhoSeesYou]

even an ant has a mother and dependent family members to kill even an ant unnecessarily is to cause suffering also to its family members.

Honestly, this is a little far fetched. No ant will be missed by anyone or anything.

 

[SheWhoSeesYou]

...few that I know would consider me cruel.

So, how many consider you cruel?

 

[Thrylix]

By this logic, you admit that you are a giant jerk. Correct? If you were a giant on another races planet how do you know you would do the same thing? YOU would no longer be YOU. And how do you know aliens would share your lack of empathy, or that an alien would have individual thought and not think and act as a whole unit as the ants do. Ah, but if you were out visiting another planet then you must be thinking and acting individually. In that case, how do you know you wouldn't be found out? I imagine interfering with another planet could be a major offense on the planet you come from. The punishment could be great.

Well let me rephrase it. If I were still me and I somehow came across a planet of tiny little aliens that were the size of ants to me, I might not have a problem with crushing a few of their towns. They would be aliens to me: bugs. I would be me in that case. I would be a giant only in the sense that the little aliens would see me as a giant, but I would still be me.

So, how many consider you cruel?

No one I can think of.

 

[SheWhoSeesYou]

Well let me rephrase it. If I were still me and I somehow came across a planet of tiny little aliens that were the size of ants to me, I might not have a problem with crushing a few of their towns. They would be aliens to me: bugs. I would be me in that case. I would be a giant only in the sense that the little aliens would see me as a giant, but I would still be me.

So, basically you're replacing the ant hill with a little planet, and the ants with little aliens? Alright. Personally, I would be staring at it in awe until deciding to get more people to see what I found. I couldn't care less if you stomp on an ant hill, but if you step on this tiny "planet" of aliens I think I would be mortified...unless they're trying to bite. It's actually really hard to imagine this tiny planet though to be honest.

Few that you know would consider you cruel...Just none that you can think of. That does make sense if they decided you are cruel, they must not be in contact with you anymore. There's no point to acknowledge their existence in that case. Out of curiosity, where are you hiding them?

 

[Father Heathen]

Is it cruel to wash your hands with anti-bacterial soap?

 

[Thrylix]

So, basically you're replacing the ant hill with a little planet, and the ants with little aliens? Alright. Personally, I would be staring at it in awe until deciding to get more people to see what I found. I couldn't care less if you stomp on an ant hill, but if you step on this tiny "planet" of aliens I think I would be mortified...unless they're trying to bite. It's actually really hard to imagine this tiny planet though to be honest.

In the example the planet isn't tiny, the aliens and their towns are. Imagine their equivalent of Tokyo being the relative size of an anthill. You would really be mortified if such a race existed and I crushed a couple towns?

 

[Parsimony]

What does the size of anything have to do with its value in the first place?

 

[McBell]

What does the size of anything have to do with its value in the first place?

Um....
It reinforces the "Might makes right" philosophy?