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Do you think this points to the body having a spirit that goes beyond death?

Thief

Rogue Theologian
[No pointing in creating Man... only to have him crumble into the dust he was made of]
But isnt that exactly what the bible is saying? If you eat of the tree you die? Did God say to Adam & Eve, you'll die but you still live on.... He didnt. I've never understand why people have to believe in an afterlife. Are you afraid of death? Or maybe you dont want to accept that when your dead, that's it, you cease to exist.

God tells us that if you fear him, you dont fear death. Why's that? Because you would believe in the resurrection. And that's why scripture tells us that, dont fear what man can do to you, God has the last say on who permanently dies. And that's because of resurrection. People will be raise, but not all and everyone will.
I read it this way......
God is doing a manipulation
the forbidden fruit IS a test

is Man that creature curious enough to face death?
for acquisition of knowledge

yeah

Adam and Eve knew what death is
not much of a test if the terms are not known

we make acquisition
we die
we take back to God and heaven whatever we have become

see Job
and the sons of God gathered to present themsleves
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
as an immortal spirit occupying a mortal meat suit i find this whole thread amusing, thanks for the chuckles
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
I read it this way......
God is doing a manipulation
the forbidden fruit IS a test

is Man that creature curious enough to face death?
for acquisition of knowledge

yeah

Adam and Eve knew what death is
not much of a test if the terms are not known

we make acquisition
we die
we take back to God and heaven whatever we have become

see Job
and the sons of God gathered to present themsleves


[Adam and Eve knew what death is
not much of a test if the terms are not known]

Adam & Eve didnt know what death was, what makes you say that one? Just curious. Probably their first sight of death was an angel killing an animal for the skins. And I'm sure that was done infront of them too.

[see Job and the sons of God gathered to present themselves]
What does this have to do with anything....
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
God tells us that if you fear him, you dont fear death. Why's that? Because you would believe in the resurrection. And that's why scripture tells us that, dont fear what man can do to you, God has the last say on who permanently dies. And that's because of resurrection.
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

Yes, at death only the body is destroyed.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
according to the book of adam and eve [apocraphal] they both were so distraught by being cast into this world that they made a habit of killing themselves in sorrow and anguish, but god would send his Word who would reanimate them ....again and again and again.....
and we are still here till this allotted time of the banishment is fulfilled for adam/eve and seed....
hmmmm....
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
If humans are spirit (from God) and brain-genes-blood vessels, then what is judged?
Our actions. (of course.)

Most everyone, though, will be judged for actions committed after their resurrection.
If you read Romans 6:23, the payment for sin isn't torment.... it's death. And Romans 6:7 says that when we die, we're "freed" (or "acquitted") from our sins.
(When a prisoner is freed, he no longer is punished.)
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Bodies of flesh cannot exist in heaven. All those chosen to rule with Christ must die the same death as he did in order to enter heaven.
Paul believed they can. Remember the rapture and entering third heaven? (2 Corinthians 12)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
In this case I agree.

What about some other verses?

Luke 16:19-31

If you look at the previous chapters of Luke, You will find them full of parables. The story of the rich man and Lazarus (a common name at the time) is also a parable....it too is not a literal story, but one rife with symbolisms.

This is how I understand the parable......

The rich man was not said to be wicked, only wealthy and uncaring about the sickly beggar who sat at his gate, and who desired even the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table.
In time both of these “died”, not literal death, but denoting a complete reversal of their circumstances.

The “bosom of Abraham” was a position of favor with God. The rich man lost this favored position and the beggar gained it. This was a message for the Pharisees, because Jesus was not sent to the religious leaders of the time because they already had a record of ignoring God’s prophets and doing what they wanted, at the expense of those “common” people, like “Lazarus” whom the Pharisees treated like dirt....unworthy of their attention, keeping the food (spiritual provisions from God) all to themselves.
Jesus was sent to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”....the spiritual beggars. When these ones responded to Jesus’ message of salvation, it irritated the Pharisees to no end. They accused him of associating with “tax collectors and sinners”....the very ones whom the Pharisees despised.

The fact that both went to different places was indicated by Jesus who told those Pharisees that “the judgment of Gehenna” awaited them. (Matthew 23:33; Matthew 23:15) “Gehenna” is falsely translated as “hell” in many Bibles, but it is not a place of conscious torture, but represents eternal death....the very opposite of eternal life.

"Gehenna" was a rubbish dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where the carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were burned up with the city’s refuse. These, it was felt were unworthy of a decent burial and therefore not in line for a resurrection and so were not put into a grave with their names and lineage inscribed. Look at any Jewish cemetery and see how important such burial places are.

The chasm between the two, meant that God’s judgment was fixed. Only those who accepted Jesus as Messiah, like the beggar would be in the favored position with God. Jesus had already condemned the Scribes and Pharisees. (Matthew 23: 37-39)

The rich man asking for Lazarus to give him a drop of cold water to cool his tongue in the fire, was tantamount to asking for Jesus’s fiery message to be watered down. His "five brothers" would no more listen to Lazarus than they would the prophets whom God sent to correct them all through their history.

This parable has nothing to do with heaven or hell.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Paul believed they can. Remember the rapture and entering third heaven? (2 Corinthians 12)

This experience by Paul is not clearly stated in exact detail, even Paul himself did not understand what had happened to him....so no one really knows what sort of vision he had.

He said...."I know a man in union with Christ who, 14 years ago—whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows—was caught away to the third heaven. 3 Yes, I know such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know; God knows— 4 who was caught away into paradise and heard words that cannot be spoken and that are not lawful for a man to say."

"Caught away to paradise" doesn't necessarily mean heaven. The first paradise was right here on earth. So in all probability it was a vision. All we know is that "flesh and blood" cannot exist in heaven. No one really knows what the third heaven is.

Paul wrote..."But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, and the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!" (1 Corinthians 15:50-57)

Those chosen by God for heavenly rulership will inherit immortality, but those resurrected to the earth will remain in their mortal flesh, but without sin and the trees of life being available to all...death will not trouble those who have an earthly paradise to enjoy. (Revelation 21:2-4)
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
[Adam and Eve knew what death is
not much of a test if the terms are not known]

Adam & Eve didnt know what death was, what makes you say that one? Just curious. Probably their first sight of death was an angel killing an animal for the skins. And I'm sure that was done infront of them too.

[see Job and the sons of God gathered to present themselves]
What does this have to do with anything....
I believe....Adam was NOT the first man to walk this earth
he was the first to walk with God

he was chosen

as for Job...
a presentation is pending
yourself ….before God and heaven

the body was formed to in turn form unique spirit
Day Six....male and female
no names....no garden...no law....
a species turned loose upon the earth

Chapter Two is a story of manipulation and alteration
a change in body and mind of Man

the forbidden fruit was a test......a trick
to see if Man would BE that creature curious
even if death is the pending result of that acquisition

to die in ignorance...as do animals
or to learn...and die

there is no mystery to life
we are here to learn all that we can before we die
the body....cannot do anything else.....or more
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
This parable has nothing to do with heaven or hell.
your post was all good ….til the last line

the parable has everything to do with heaven or hell

and the angel said....there is a great divide between us
even as the rich man and the angel are close enough to speak to each other
 

DW79

Member
I believe....Adam was NOT the first man to walk this earth
he was the first to walk with God

he was chosen

as for Job...
a presentation is pending
yourself ….before God and heaven

the body was formed to in turn form unique spirit
Day Six....male and female
no names....no garden...no law....
a species turned loose upon the earth

Chapter Two is a story of manipulation and alteration
a change in body and mind of Man

the forbidden fruit was a test......a trick
to see if Man would BE that creature curious
even if death is the pending result of that acquisition

to die in ignorance...as do animals
or to learn...and die

there is no mystery to life
we are here to learn all that we can before we die
the body....cannot do anything else.....or more

I mean they're interesting theories there's numerous theories about but where do they come from is what I ask.

As for God wanting his own tree. I've got no problem with that never have had. No idea why God couldn't have a tree if he wants one. We all have stuff that we like for ourselves.
 

DW79

Member
your post was all good ….til the last line

the parable has everything to do with heaven or hell

and the angel said....there is a great divide between us
even as the rich man and the angel are close enough to speak to each other

Interesting. If its to do with heaven and hell then what are we to make of this?

Rev 20:13 "and death and Hell gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds"
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
What is mind and where it is? Where are your predilections, instincts and memories? Do they finish with bodily elements that go to the earth? Who or what undergoes judgement?

All information we have seems to indecate that consciousness...all thoughts, memories, emotions, etc. ends with the death of the brain.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
your post was all good ….til the last line

the parable has everything to do with heaven or hell

"Hell" in the Bible is the grave.....it is no more sinister than that. Even "gehenna" (incorrectly translated as "hell") is nothing of the sort.
There is no consciousness in death and unconscious souls feel no joy or torment....they feel nothing...they know nothing.

and the angel said....there is a great divide between us
even as the rich man and the angel are close enough to speak to each other

If you read the parable, it is Abraham speaking, not an angel. Abraham was long dead.

Hebrews 11:8-10,13 says...
"By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God. . . .In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."

As with all the pre-Christian men and women of faith, it says that these 'died without receiving the fulfillment of the promises'. This is because their reward was yet future under Messiah's Kingdom. Since none of the Ancient Hebrews believed in life after death, they knew about the resurrection and had faith in it. Even Job prayed to God....at his lowest ebb in wishing for death....
"If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes.


15 You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands."


He was speaking about 'waiting' in the grave for the call back to life...that is what the ancient Jews believed. A resurrection to them was a restoration to life on earth, not in heaven.

So, in this parable, ask yourself....why would Abraham be conversing with the rich man in hades?
Why is heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another?
How could a drop of water cool anyone's tongue in a blazing fire?

It only makes sense as a parable.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
We sometimes get people who ask..."what about those who lived in lands or at times when the true God and his Christ were not known or acknowledged?" It seems harsh to judge people adversely when they had no choice in a matter. Our religion and beliefs are largely dictated by our country of origin and the faith and beliefs of our family and community. But according to our scripture, people living at "the time of the end" are the only ones who will be judged....for no other reason than that they are alive at the time when Christ returns to bring humanity to an accounting. We have been expecting Christ's return for a long time and now it seems as if prophesy is all coming together as the world is brought to its knees by something so small that we cant even see it. This enemy cannot be conquered at the moment, and it is taking hundreds of thousands of lives all over the world, mostly of those too old or weak to fight it.

For the ones who have died, these have paid sin's wages....IOW they have suffered the death penalty and now all their sins are cancelled. Death was the highest penalty paid under God's law.....they have paid for past sins with their own death.
These are the ones who will be judged, not for what they did in the past, but for how they conduct themselves in the future. They will be resurrected to life on earth, and have 1,000 years to get it together and prove that they are worthy citizens of a transformed planet earth. The paradise that God gave our first parents will be returned so that God's will can be "done on earth as it is in heaven".




You have to understand the Bible's overall message....it is not racial but it has to do with whom or what we choose to worship....if we worship at all.
The apostle Peter said..."Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." (Acts 10:34-35)

Its all about worshipping the true God in the way that he says he should be worshipped. We are not free to practice our "own" religion as if we are the sole arbiters of what is acceptable to God or not. He is the one who dictates to us because he is the Sovereign of the Universe...we are his children and we are to respect him as such and practice what he deems to be acceptable worship.



OK...at birth, I believe that we are a new creation....the genetic product of our parents. I do not believe that we have lived before our birth, or that we will live on after death. We are who we are while we are in this body. We are judged by the choices we make in this life.

So at birth, we are a 'blank canvas' so to speak. Who we are and what we become in life is largely dictated by our genetics and our environment. Our parents contribute to our education in many ways as role models and teachers of their own life skills. Some are obviously better educators than others and some unfortunately were not cut out to be parents and its usually their own role modeling that has let them down. Generations of poor and uneducated people often lack the opportunity to better themselves and attitudes can be adopted that prevent them from breaking the mold. Some can break free and become whatever they wish, in spite of their circumstances, but they usually need a mentor to help them up out of their situation. Someone who nurtured them and gave them the confidence to try and better themselves.

So if we see God as our loving Father who wants the best for us, no matter what our circumstances, our parenting, or our history, we have God and his son as our mentors who will guide us through the trials of this life and bring us out the other side....all the better for their training and nurturing.
This life is not the one God chose for us...it is the one chosen by our first human father, Adam. He sold us into a situation that no one but God could get us out of.

As the Bible tells it...an enemy of God tempted Adam to disobey a simple but important command, and unleashed the hounds of disaster to plague the world ever since. Suffering and death have been man's lot as a result. God shows us the way out of that situation.

Those who know the Creator and love him, see what is happening in the world and are confident about its outcome.....the end of this present system of things is not going to be a picnic, but God assures us that he will see us through it and we will come out the other side, chastened and grateful that we did not abandon our God or ignore his laws. He has provided his word and counsel for all people. This is a judgment period because God has had the news about his kingdom broadcast in all nations to people of all languages and faiths, giving them the same opportunity to come to know him. (Matthew 24:14) As a reader of hearts he knows those who respond to the "good news" and those who ignore it.

God sent his son to die for you and me and all who want to live in his new world. All we have to do is seek him with a complete heart....one that is not enslaved to false beliefs and traditions. God has always had a people who have served his interests here on earth. He does not forget the righteous, and promises to reward them....but the wicked will have earned the death penalty by their own choices.

That is how I understand the Bible's message...


I do not see what I requested. Sorry. But I give up. If you do not acknowledge the inconsistencies in your view then no one can explain it to you. Thanks, however, for indulging me,
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
"Hell" in the Bible is the grave.....it is no more sinister than that. Even "gehenna" (incorrectly translated as "hell") is nothing of the sort.
There is no consciousness in death and unconscious souls feel no joy or torment....they feel nothing...they know nothing.



If you read the parable, it is Abraham speaking, not an angel. Abraham was long dead.

Hebrews 11:8-10,13 says...
"By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God. . . .In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."

As with all the pre-Christian men and women of faith, it says that these 'died without receiving the fulfillment of the promises'. This is because their reward was yet future under Messiah's Kingdom. Since none of the Ancient Hebrews believed in life after death, they knew about the resurrection and had faith in it. Even Job prayed to God....at his lowest ebb in wishing for death....
"If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes.


15 You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands."


He was speaking about 'waiting' in the grave for the call back to life...that is what the ancient Jews believed. A resurrection to them was a restoration to life on earth, not in heaven.

So, in this parable, ask yourself....why would Abraham be conversing with the rich man in hades?
Why is heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another?
How could a drop of water cool anyone's tongue in a blazing fire?

It only makes sense as a parable.
ah yes.....I stand corrected....
circle the day on your calender…..this is a rare typo for me
Abraham....not an angel

still...it remains
the characters are close enough to speak to each other
yet a great divide is between them

one in torment....the other....not

like most parables the terms are speaking of other things
a drop of water …...forgiveness
and the torment is lessened

but Abraham would not bring Lazarus to do so
the gesture would not happen
why trouble Lazarus when peace has been given?

the great divide may well be.....forever
 
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